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post #1 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Placement Advice

Hey all,

I've had my four PSA XS15s for quite awhile now and have tried many, many different placement options...but I'm at my wits end trying to make sense of these graphs. With all 4 subs up front (in 2 stacks of 2) I get great output, sounds great, but my seat-to-seat variance suffers a bit....and my graphs look horrible! I only have to bump the trim +2db in this configuration.

With 2 up front and 2 in back, I get great looking graphs but the bass is thin and weak. I have to bump up the trim at least 6db to get it even close to sounding good. You will notice that I don't get much response below 30hz in this config.

What on earth am I doing wrong? I don't understand why the better looking graphs don't actually sound better....?


All 4 subs up front, Aud off blue, Aud on green:



2 up front/2 in back, Aud off blue, Aud on green:

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post #2 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 12:53 PM
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Phase issues?, have you tried sub pink noise with rew rta to mess with the phase control?
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post #3 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwtallguy View Post
Phase issues?, have you tried sub pink noise with rew rta to mess with the phase control?
I have NOT tried the RTA + phase, good idea! I typically just adjust phase for highest SPL at the MLP. With that method, the back subs are at 180...maybe that's not the correct way to go about it....?

What exactly would I look for in the RTA while adjusting phase?
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post #4 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 02:16 PM
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My theory is you like a lot of bass and a flat response does not always mean much if you can not get the output you desire. Placing all 4 subs up front is creating 6db more headroom, but placing them around the room sacrifices output. Like I said back before you purchased the 2 extra XS15's you should of went with dual XS30's. Now for the good news you still can.

Simply stack the XS15's up front and purchase a pair of XS30's for the rear. Or save yourself some money and go diy and build some SI 18's.
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post #5 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I have NOT tried the RTA + phase, good idea! I typically just adjust phase for highest SPL at the MLP. With that method, the back subs are at 180...maybe that's not the correct way to go about it....?

What exactly would I look for in the RTA while adjusting phase?
Smoother response down to 15 hertz since with just the subs up front you get good lows but when all four in different corners its gets washed out for some reason, now you might need bass traps to solve your problems too. Just throwing out ideas id be trying.
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post #6 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
My theory is you like a lot of bass and a flat response does not always mean much if you can not get the output you desire. Placing all 4 subs up front is creating 6db more headroom, but placing them around the room sacrifices output. Like I said back before you purchased the 2 extra XS15's you should of went with dual XS30's. Now for the good news you still can.

Simply stack the XS15's up front and purchase a pair of XS30's for the rear. Or save yourself some money and go diy and build some SI 18's.
SHUT UP BASSHEAD!!

I know, I know....shoulda never went sealed in the first place....shoulda not invested in 2 more sealed subs....but now I know, right??

I've actually been hanging around a lot in the DIY forum....gettin' some good ideas (like quad SI 18s). The only problem I have is I think it would be pretty difficult to sell one PSA sub in my area, let alone four. Maybe I'll just post 'em up on Craigslist and see what happens.

For now, I think I'm gonna just stack up the XS15s again and leave it alone. Then, try to decide - DIY or BUY??
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post #7 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwtallguy View Post
Smoother response down to 15 hertz since with just the subs up front you get good lows but when all four in different corners its gets washed out for some reason, now you might need bass traps to solve your problems too. Just throwing out ideas id be trying.
I can get much better extension if I set the rear subs to "0" instead of "180" - flat to around 8-9hz (just like all 4 up front), BUT....then I run in to headroom issues.

Unfortunately, I think basshead nailed it (as usual)...I just need to accept the fact that 4 XS15s in my room just ain't gonna cut it for me (even though most folks would think that just sounds crazy).
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post #8 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I can get much better extension if I set the rear subs to "0" instead of "180" - flat to around 8-9hz (just like all 4 up front), BUT....then I run in to headroom issues.

Unfortunately, I think basshead nailed it (as usual)...I just need to accept the fact that 4 XS15s in my room just ain't gonna cut it for me (even though most folks would think that just sounds crazy).
How big is your room ? any pics?
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post #9 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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~5000 cu. ft.

No pics, but:

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post #10 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
~5000 cu. ft.

No pics, but:

Didnt know your room was that large
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post #11 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 06:40 PM
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@ Alan P


I see your dilemma as for placement ! only thing I would suggest is pulling the K horns out and away from the corners into the room and placing the XS15se that are up front behind them ! this may boost a room mode and are help with the time domain, it may be the horns cancelling the bass your looking for! Just how far are they in the corners?
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post #12 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 07:01 PM
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K horns are designed to be placed in the corner so that would not be a option I am afraid.
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post #13 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
~5000 cu. ft.

No pics, but:

Alan,

Take a look at the graphs Mark Seaton posted in this thread:
SIX (6) Seaton Submersive install and exceptional service from Mark Seaton

He had to add 7 miliseconds of delay to the closer rear subs to get them time aligned. You may want to try something like that with your setup.

Craig
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post #14 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 07:47 PM
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^^^ excellent Idea!
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post #15 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Alan,

Take a look at the graphs Mark Seaton posted in this thread:
SIX (6) Seaton Submersive install and exceptional service from Mark Seaton

He had to add 7 miliseconds of delay to the closer rear subs to get them time aligned. You may want to try something like that with your setup.

Craig
Unfortunately I tried that with my MiniDSP just last night....no amount of delay that I measured (1-7.5ms) seemed to help much if at all.

Just moved all subs back up front, running Audyssey right now. I did add the MiniDSP back in to the mix though....maybe can get it just a bit flatter. I'll post up some new graphs later on.
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post #16 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 10:32 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, been doing some pondering and browsing PSAs site....

What would you do if you were me?

1) Upgrade my 4 XS15s to SE + 2 more XS15SEs = $2424 (probably the worst option)
2) Keep the 4 XS15s as-is and add 2 XS30ses = $2349
3) Do I only need 2 more XS15ses to get the job done? = $1499 (I think I would always wonder about option 2 though)

Could take advantage of the Summer of Bass and if the 2 15s weren't enough, well.....XS30s it is!
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post #17 of 157 Old 08-12-2014, 11:10 PM
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dual XS30's make the most sense if you are buying and not building. two of those would be close to 4 XS15's. Stack the XS15's up front and put the dual XS30 in the rear.


-Reason why-


- adding two more XS15 is only going to yield another 3db headroom...not enough gain imo.


-upgrading all 4 to the SE versions would likely only yield 3db gain but compression performance is greatly improved along with thd.


- adding 2 XS30's will likely add another 6db of headroom which I think is what you need to get satisfying bass in that large room.


that being said I think you could save your self a lot of coin by purchasing a couple SI 18's, a pair of flatpacks from diy sound group, and build two subs for the rear of the room. A Inuke DSP 3000 would power them well. You could complete this build easily for around a grand.
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post #18 of 157 Old 08-13-2014, 08:00 AM
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Gotta agree with bass on this one. You'd be much better served by adding the SI18's. Honestly, I'd add those, then I'd try and sell the XS15s and build more 18s.

My room is about 4300, and my single THT does ok, but I'll be building another in the future.

Good luck Alan!

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post #19 of 157 Old 08-13-2014, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys!

Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
dual XS30's make the most sense if you are buying and not building. two of those would be close to 4 XS15's. Stack the XS15's up front and put the dual XS30 in the rear.


-Reason why-


- adding two more XS15 is only going to yield another 3db headroom...not enough gain imo.


-upgrading all 4 to the SE versions would likely only yield 3db gain but compression performance is greatly improved along with thd.


- adding 2 XS30's will likely add another 6db of headroom which I think is what you need to get satisfying bass in that large room.


that being said I think you could save your self a lot of coin by purchasing a couple SI 18's, a pair of flatpacks from diy sound group, and build two subs for the rear of the room. A Inuke DSP 3000 would power them well. You could complete this build easily for around a grand.
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Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post
Gotta agree with bass on this one. You'd be much better served by adding the SI18's. Honestly, I'd add those, then I'd try and sell the XS15s and build more 18s.

My room is about 4300, and my single THT does ok, but I'll be building another in the future.

Good luck Alan!
So you both think that a couple DIY 18s would play well with the XS15s? That's great news!

Could you link me to the particular flat packs you would recommend? Are the SI 18" drivers still available? I can't seem to find 'em anywhere.
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post #20 of 157 Old 08-13-2014, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Thanks guys!

So you both think that a couple DIY 18s would play well with the XS15s? That's great news!

Could you link me to the particular flat packs you would recommend? Are the SI 18" drivers still available? I can't seem to find 'em anywhere.
Flat packs

SI18

Looks like a 3 week wait on the D4, the D2 looks ready to ship. Same price, just no wait. And if memory serves, you need the 4 cubic foot flat pack.

With your MiniDSP getting the 18s and XS15s to play well won't be hard.

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post #21 of 157 Old 08-13-2014, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Probably a really basic question that I could find the answer to pretty easily, but what are the advantages of getting the 4 ohm vs. the 2 ohm??
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post #22 of 157 Old 08-13-2014, 08:53 AM
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For me it's power consumption. 2ohm takes more power to run. I prefer 4ohm. There are probably a wide range of possible answers, that's just mine.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Probably a really basic question that I could find the answer to pretty easily, but what are the advantages of getting the 4 ohm vs. the 2 ohm??
Its so you can match amps to subs, some amps are .5 ohm stable and some are only 8 ohm rated
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post #24 of 157 Old 08-13-2014, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Gotcha, thanks. I'm just gonna make a new thread in the DIY section before I order anything.
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Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post
For me it's power consumption. 2ohm takes more power to run. I prefer 4ohm. There are probably a wide range of possible answers, that's just mine.
2 ohms are less resistive so they are easier to push if your amp is stable at 2 ohms or w/e resistance your load is
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2 ohms are less resistive so they are easier to push if your amp is stable at 2 ohms or w/e resistance your load is
Good to know. I knew there were better reasons

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post #27 of 157 Old 08-13-2014, 09:35 AM
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It all comes down to the amp you are using. Being the SI comes with dual coils you can wire them in different ways to achieve the impendence you are looking for. The D2 wired in parallel would equal a 1ohm load, the D2 wired in series would equal a 4ohm load. The D4 wired in parallel would equal a 2ohm load, the D4 wired in series would equal a 8ohm load.

You could get the SI18 D2's, wire them in 4ohm and purchase a Inuke 6000 to power them. Since you have a mini dsp, you might not even need the dsp series, so you could save some money there.

There also is the Dayton Ultimax 18" if the SI is not available.
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post #28 of 157 Old 08-13-2014, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Hey all,

I've had my four PSA XS15s for quite awhile now and have tried many, many different placement options...but I'm at my wits end trying to make sense of these graphs. With all 4 subs up front (in 2 stacks of 2) I get great output, sounds great, but my seat-to-seat variance suffers a bit....and my graphs look horrible! I only have to bump the trim +2db in this configuration.

With 2 up front and 2 in back, I get great looking graphs but the bass is thin and weak. I have to bump up the trim at least 6db to get it even close to sounding good. You will notice that I don't get much response below 30hz in this config.

What on earth am I doing wrong? I don't understand why the better looking graphs don't actually sound better....?


All 4 subs up front, Aud off blue, Aud on green:



2 up front/2 in back, Aud off blue, Aud on green:

Hi Alan,

I suspect the need to boost the level more with the front/rear locations comes from the dip in the middle of the front sub response causing Audyssey to set the level a little higher since that's in the middle of the range used to set the level. Bumping the level is just fine, so long as you're not out of headroom and hearing things overload or stop getting louder. The 4 front sub response does also have much more signal in the 20-35Hz range which is where much of the loud, deep sounding bass resides.

I would say you don't have (or haven't posted) enough info yet to know if you're getting the most from the setup. Are these graphs including the main speakers? Do you have all 4 subs at the same volume setting on their dials or set to match some level at the seats? Is this using a single sub out from Audyssey or 2 separate channels?

What we really need to see are measurements from each subwoofer location without EQ and all set to the same output level and main speakers turned off. This would be the same as sliding a subwoofer around the room taking measurements without touching the volume dial. Then you want to test combinations with all of the subs still at the same level to see how they combine. If they happen to be similar in level, the maximum gain for 2 subwoofers is +6dB over the response of one. All 4 can potentially add 12dB over the response of one. How much of this type of gain is what you want to see, and why you leave the level the same when turning on more units.

Take a look at some of the measurements I posted in the thread craig john linked. You can see the efficiency of the different ranges from different locations. There's a possibility that the left subwoofer locations vs the right could be causing some issues as well. Best to know what you have to work with individually as this can also help determine how to make adjustments with the MiniDSP.

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post #29 of 157 Old 08-13-2014, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for posting Mark!

All the above measurements are the LFE channel only (in REW). No MiniDSP in the chain at that time.

All subs are gain matched, not level matched.

Single sub out, split into both MiniDSP inputs. My AVR doesn't do dual subs.

Quote:
What we really need to see are measurements from each subwoofer location without EQ and all set to the same output level and main speakers turned off.
You're saying I need to measure each sub individually? I can do that, but what would I be looking for? Wouldn't the response change anyway once I turn on one or more of the other subs??
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post #30 of 157 Old 08-13-2014, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh, and this...

Quote:
Bumping the level is just fine, so long as you're not out of headroom and hearing things overload or stop getting louder.
...is exactly the problem I have with that configuration; running out of headroom when I get to around -10 to -5 MV.
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