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post #1 of 18 Old 08-14-2014, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Finetuning Subwoofer

Hi, i recently bought a secondhand B&W ASW650. but i cant get the sub finetuned the way i like it. i only can get the sub to not sound at all, or sound too boomy.
if i use music to set it up, i can get it to work with some songs, when i change to another song, it sounds like crap. (worse than without the sub)
i did not buy the sub, for it to sound worse

Setup
Onkyo TX SR313 (i know, its not a good Receiver)
2x Philips FB840
B&W ASW650 Connected via LFE

settings:

Receiver:
Sub: Yes
Fronts: Large
CrossoverFreq: 50-70 Hz, some songs 50Hz is best, some songs its more to 70Hz.

Subwoofer:
Crossover on Subwoofer: OFF
EQ: A (B sounded a bit worse imho)
fase: tried 0 and 180, is a bit difference, but does not solve my problem.

then i tried an frequency generator (via a chromecast)
and i noticed frecuencies from 60 to 90 are played on both my subwoofer, aswell as my fronts.
wich is confusing to me, as i thought the receiver should send everything above the setting to the fronts, and everything below to the sub, (maybe with a overlap of a few Hz)


as i spent over 4 hours already on it, i decided to get help here. ill try placement today, but i dont have much room to place it, and my roommates wont like to have subwoofer in the way.

Possibilities:
- Sub placement
- using speakercables to connect sub to receiver, and fronts to the sub ( will this help? )
- audio modes on receiver, currently im using Neo6: Music.
- try another Frequency generator (CD, notebook, ..)
- ???

pls help me.
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post #2 of 18 Old 08-14-2014, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BalooTheBigBear View Post
Hi, i recently bought a secondhand B&W ASW650. but i cant get the sub finetuned the way i like it. i only can get the sub to not sound at all, or sound too boomy.
if i use music to set it up, i can get it to work with some songs, when i change to another song, it sounds like crap. (worse than without the sub)
i did not buy the sub, for it to sound worse

Setup
Onkyo TX SR313 (i know, its not a good Receiver)
2x Philips FB840
B&W ASW650 Connected via LFE

settings:

Receiver:
Sub: Yes
Fronts: Large
CrossoverFreq: 50-70 Hz, some songs 50Hz is best, some songs its more to 70Hz.

Subwoofer:
Crossover on Subwoofer: OFF
EQ: A (B sounded a bit worse imho)
fase: tried 0 and 180, is a bit difference, but does not solve my problem.

then i tried an frequency generator (via a chromecast)
and i noticed frecuencies from 60 to 90 are played on both my subwoofer, aswell as my fronts.
wich is confusing to me, as i thought the receiver should send everything above the setting to the fronts, and everything below to the sub, (maybe with a overlap of a few Hz)


as i spent over 4 hours already on it, i decided to get help here. ill try placement today, but i dont have much room to place it, and my roommates wont like to have subwoofer in the way.

Possibilities:
- Sub placement
- using speakercables to connect sub to receiver, and fronts to the sub ( will this help? )
- audio modes on receiver, currently im using Neo6: Music.
- try another Frequency generator (CD, notebook, ..)
- ???

pls help me.
Set the speakers to small or you wont get a smooth response at the crossover point as a start
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post #3 of 18 Old 08-14-2014, 02:07 PM
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Boomy subs are usually placement related.
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post #4 of 18 Old 08-14-2014, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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today i was cooking in the kitchen, and i cranked up the volume. and the audio sounded much better. the bass was what i would expect from a sub without finetuning. (much better than what i was getting y'day.

I read somewhere if your room is too small, your bass would sound good with you neighbours. so im thinking my room is too small.. its aprox 5mx4m. with a connection to the kitchen of a hall 2m wide.
so i thought it was large enough for a 12 inch sub.

i got inexpected vistitation, so i didnt do anything about the sound yet.
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post #5 of 18 Old 08-14-2014, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BalooTheBigBear View Post
im thinking my room is too small.. its aprox 5mx4m. with a connection to the kitchen of a hall 2m wide....so i thought it was large enough for a 12 inch sub.
That's not small. Many car subs are twelves, and they're a lot smaller than your room. Many users will run a pair of fifteens in a room the size of yours. As already noted placement is key, you must do the sub crawl to find the best spot for it, and many rooms have severe enough cancellation modes that two are a necessity to smooth them.

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post #6 of 18 Old 08-14-2014, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BalooTheBigBear View Post
today i was cooking in the kitchen, and i cranked up the volume. and the audio sounded much better. the bass was what i would expect from a sub without finetuning. (much better than what i was getting y'day.

I read somewhere if your room is too small, your bass would sound good with you neighbours. so im thinking my room is too small.. its aprox 5mx4m. with a connection to the kitchen of a hall 2m wide.
so i thought it was large enough for a 12 inch sub.

i got inexpected vistitation, so i didnt do anything about the sound yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
That's not small. Many car subs are twelves, and they're a lot smaller than your room. Many users will run a pair of fifteens in a room the size of yours. As already noted placement is key, you must do the sub crawl to find the best spot for it, and many rooms have severe enough cancellation modes that two are a necessity to smooth them.



I am one of those people that Bill is speaking about. I have two large 15" subs in a room slightly smaller than yours.

Projector: Benq W1070 1080p 2D/3D
Screen: 120" Elite fixed frame
AVR: Onkyo TX-NR809
Mains: Klipsch RF-62ii x 2
Center: Klipsch RC-62ii
Surrounds: Klipsch RS-42ii x 2
Subs: Dual Hsu VTF-15H's
Sonos-Play 5 and Play 3
Sony Playstation 4
Microsoft Xbox One
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post #7 of 18 Old 08-15-2014, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwtallguy View Post
Set the speakers to small or you wont get a smooth response at the crossover point as a start
Did you catch this BigBear? You need to have your mains set to "small" for the crossover to even work. With them set to "large" you are still feeding the full range signal to your mains and your sub is only getting the LFE channel (which there is none of in music).
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post #8 of 18 Old 08-15-2014, 05:51 PM
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Some avr's have a quasi bass management scheme and can still direct sound to the mains and other surrounds set to large. For most stereo music, setting the speakers to large will take the sub out of the picture unless you use a Plus or double bass feature.
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post #9 of 18 Old 08-16-2014, 05:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Did you catch this BigBear? You need to have your mains set to "small" for the crossover to even work. With them set to "large" you are still feeding the full range signal to your mains and your sub is only getting the LFE channel (which there is none of in music).
yes but it did not solve it the crossover problem. on the online generator, i used the subwoofer test, and i noticed the subwoofer would start to kick in gradiently from 70 hz, and gradualy start to get 'louder' towards 50 hz, the fronts was the exact opposite. so at approx 60 hz, both the sub and fronts were playing at 50%.

im not at home in the weekend, apart from the moments my neighbours want to sleep
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post #10 of 18 Old 08-16-2014, 07:54 PM
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Totally normal. Crossovers are not a brick wall.

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post #11 of 18 Old 08-19-2014, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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ive been fondling with settings for a week now, and with music, the Direct Setting still gives Much cleaner sound, and more enjoyable sound than when multichannel is enabled.

fyi with direct: only the fronts are playing, and the subwoofer isnt.

Boomy sound:
setting the fronts to small helped alot with the boomy sound.
placement did not help that much, but ive got not much to play with. since the room is quite full of junk. (at least i cant hear anything resonating. so the junk isnt interfering with my sound. i guess)

Movies:
in movies the Sub is awesome.

Music:
when the sub is on with music, it is not soothing, nor is it calming.

is it the receiver?
should i try connecting the sub via speakercables? and the fronts to the sub?
should i replace the receiver? (wich i do not have the money for atm)
should i modify my receiver with pre-outs, so i can connect an old Stereo Amplifier?

im thankfull for all the help im getting!
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post #12 of 18 Old 08-19-2014, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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sidenote: i love the sound of my fronts (without the sub), they sound pretty amazing imho, and theyre pretty balanced.

but ive heard the FB860's once, and i was impressed by the Bass, it was much fuller, and as i remember it was better than my combination.

an audiophile said to me the philips FB821 ( an FB840 with an isophase tweeter) , wich im restoring, icw a subwoofer should be better than a FB860 because the FB860 has 'poor' midrange balance
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post #13 of 18 Old 08-19-2014, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BalooTheBigBear View Post
ive been fondling with settings for a week now, and with music, the Direct Setting still gives Much cleaner sound, and more enjoyable sound than when multichannel is enabled.

fyi with direct: only the fronts are playing, and the subwoofer isnt.

Boomy sound:
setting the fronts to small helped alot with the boomy sound.
placement did not help that much, but ive got not much to play with. since the room is quite full of junk. (at least i cant hear anything resonating. so the junk isnt interfering with my sound. i guess)

Movies:
in movies the Sub is awesome.

Music:
when the sub is on with music, it is not soothing, nor is it calming.

is it the receiver?
should i try connecting the sub via speakercables? and the fronts to the sub?
should i replace the receiver? (wich i do not have the money for atm)
should i modify my receiver with pre-outs, so i can connect an old Stereo Amplifier?

im thankfull for all the help im getting!
When you say "the Direct Setting still gives Much cleaner sound, and more enjoyable sound than when multichannel is enabled", which surround mode in particular do you mean by "multichannel"?

Your situation is very different, most folks complain of not enough bass with music.

Have you done the sub crawl to find out where your sub "wants" to live??
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post #14 of 18 Old 08-19-2014, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
When you say "the Direct Setting still gives Much cleaner sound, and more enjoyable sound than when multichannel is enabled", which surround mode in particular do you mean by "multichannel"?

Your situation is very different, most folks complain of not enough bass with music.

Have you done the sub crawl to find out where your sub "wants" to live??
Hes using neo 6 dsp.
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post #15 of 18 Old 08-19-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jwtallguy View Post
Hes using neo 6 dsp.
Was that posted in a different thread, because it's not in this one.

Ooops, nevermind...I found where he mentioned it.
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post #16 of 18 Old 08-19-2014, 01:20 PM
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OK Baloo, it sounds to me like you haven't set your speaker levels with an SPL meter, is that correct? You most likely have your subwoofer's gain set too high. You should also set the speaker distances in your AVR.

If you have a smartphone, you can download an SPL app to set your levels. These apps are notoriously inaccurate, but for setting relative levels they are better than nothing.

If you can swing it, you should get a decent SPL meter (around $50). Alternately, you could get a new AVR that will calibrate the levels and distances for you.
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post #17 of 18 Old 08-20-2014, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
OK Baloo, it sounds to me like you haven't set your speaker levels with an SPL meter, is that correct? You most likely have your subwoofer's gain set too high. You should also set the speaker distances in your AVR.

If you have a smartphone, you can download an SPL app to set your levels. These apps are notoriously inaccurate, but for setting relative levels they are better than nothing.

If you can swing it, you should get a decent SPL meter (around $50). Alternately, you could get a new AVR that will calibrate the levels and distances for you.
i havent set it with a meter. thx for the tip
ive got a cheap one somewhere, it cost me about 30 euro's.
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post #18 of 18 Old 08-20-2014, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BalooTheBigBear View Post
i havent set it with a meter. thx for the tip
ive got a cheap one somewhere, it cost me about 30 euro's.
Well, there's your problem right there then.
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