Help with adding a second (or third) Sub to Home Theater - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 08-27-2014, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Help with adding a second (or third) Sub to Home Theater

Looking for the forum's collective expertise on adding 1 or 2 subs to my current home theater setup.

Room is a dedicated theater approx 13 X 27 X 7 with an AT screen. Main LCR are all behind the screen wall. I currently have a Velodyne DD15 sub and it is positioned on the right side wall at about the half way point (black box on drawing below) I have a stage, riser for second row of seats, and a bar in the back (orange on drawing below). Sub placement is fairly limited due to all of this, but I've found I get decent response out of the DD15's current position (as my preamp correction software shows). I tried the DD15 behind the screen wall in the area that's bumped out, but response was horrible. I can get about the same response in the front right or left corner, but the room looks better with the current placement...so that's where it is at today.

The one problem is that with the current location so close to the main seats, it's pretty easy to locate the sub. My friend brought over a small Paradigm 10" Seismic sub and we tried adding it as a second sub behind the screen wall. Response was roughly the same, and it seems to help make the sub more seamless with the other speakers. So--I'm looking to add 1 or possibly 2 subs behind the screen wall--and looking for recommendations on the sub or subs ($900-$1200) max to add to the current DD15. Does velodyne (or other) make a current smaller sub that work well with the DD15, Or--should I be looking to sell and replace the DD15 with 2-3 new subs (same make/model) for a better outcome? I could prob up budget to $2-$2.5K if I replaced the DD15.

Width Limitations on the side wall where DD15 is today behind the screen are 18" wide. Room correction is Anthem ARC, and I just don't have the time for DIY. ID is ok thought.

GO!
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post #2 of 19 Old 08-27-2014, 08:32 AM
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something along the lines of a Rythmik D15, PSA XS15se, or HSU ULS 15 would probably work well with that DD15.


however I would sell the digital drive and go with matching ported subs. Dual Rythmik FV15HP would be on the high side of your budget, Dual HSU VTF-15 would be on the bottom side of your budget, and Dual PSA XV15se would be under budget. all 3 would be a nice upgrade of your current setup.
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post #3 of 19 Old 08-27-2014, 09:09 AM
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basshead gives good advice, but I wanted to address your placement issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barhoram View Post
I can get about the same response in the front right or left corner, but the room looks better with the current placement...so that's where it is at today.
#1 RULE OF SUBWOOFERS: The most aesthetically pleasing location is almost never the most acoustically pleasing location.

You have to decide if you want it to look good, or do you want it to sound good? Rarely do the 2 meet....however, in my room they actually did!

The first thing you need to do is find out if you actually even need more subwoofers....don't get me wrong, more subs is always a good thing, but a lot of people throw money at subs before they have optimized what they already have.

#1 - Have you done the sub crawl to find the best placement for your current sub?
#2 - Have you measured (or are you willing to measure) your response (REW, Omnimic, SPL meter + graph paper)?
#3 - Have you tried other placements (the back corners look like great candidates)?
#4 - What preamp and what correction software are you using? And are you sure you have optimized your calibration routine?
#5 - Have you optimized the phase (on sub amp) and sub distance (in preamp) settings?

Concerning localization - where do you have your crossovers set (and are all speakers set to "small")?

Your room is only ~2500 cu. ft., there's no reason that DD15 shouldn't be performing in that small of a space. Let's see if we can't get it working before you start throwing money around.
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post #4 of 19 Old 08-27-2014, 09:25 AM
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True but the room being 27ft long is not going to allow room much room gain to help lift the low end until 20hz. Ideally you want room gain to start kicking in around the subs F3 which is normally 30hz ish on most sealed alignments. For a sealed sub, ideally you want the longest room dimension no longer then 18-20ft.

I agree with your post tho!! Excellent advice.
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post #5 of 19 Old 08-27-2014, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks for the responses. Pre-Amp is an Anthem D2 with ARC correction. I have used it's Live settings to optimize the sub (in acceptable positions) and that's where it worked best. Unfortunately, I didn't wire the back corrers for a sub, so I think those are out. The left wall is the walkway, and the front is the stage area/screen. With a 7 foot ceiling, the screen sits too low to allow a sub in front of it. The DD15 is plenty big for the space (its set to 4 on volume) after calibration...it's just that its easy to localize being so close to the seats.

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post #6 of 19 Old 08-27-2014, 10:37 AM
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You could always buy some sub cables from monoprice and run it to the back, or the new subs.

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post #7 of 19 Old 08-27-2014, 10:42 AM
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I'd sell the DD15 and do dual DIY LMS-18's:
http://www.data-bass.com/systems
Just one LMS-18 @ 16hz is equivalent two DD18+'s, and at 10hz the equivalent of 4 DD18+'s.


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post #8 of 19 Old 08-27-2014, 11:01 AM
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Josh tests those passive subs with a very expensive high power amp and no limiters are in place. Knock about 4-6db off those numbers for realistic output capability.
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post #9 of 19 Old 08-27-2014, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post
You could always buy some sub cables from monoprice and run it to the back, or the new subs.
And if the sub(s) work better back there, you could get a wireless kit for the permanent installation.
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post #10 of 19 Old 08-27-2014, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Josh tests those passive subs with a very expensive high power amp
True, but the UXL-18's are twice as efficient as the LMS-18 and also half the $$$, so that would probably be the wisest move given his budget.
A nu6000DSP will easily power two sealed or ported UXL-18's.

Obviously DIY only makes sense if you have woodworking equipment, or know someone who does, or can pay someone who does (there are a few in the DIY section that could).

Generally people that do DIY, do it because they are seeking results that simply aren't possible using OEM-subs, and/or at the price level they are looking to save.

$1000 in OEM-land gets you a decent or mid-fi subwoofer; where as in DIY-land, $1000 gets you all but the bestest subwoofer on earth.
If you can swing glue and a powered screwdriver around, then you are halfway there! (although I wouldn't recommend swinging glue around, LOL )

Last edited by BassThatHz; 08-27-2014 at 03:28 PM.
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post #11 of 19 Old 08-27-2014, 03:56 PM
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I don't see the need to sell the DD15 if it's working for you. I'd just add another sub or two up front. Maybe add one at a time to see if that gets you what you want in terms of even response.

The DD15 is sealed so another sealed sub or two would be the easiest to mix in. One or two PSA XS15se or Reaction audio BPS215 would work well.

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post #12 of 19 Old 08-27-2014, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
True, but the UXL-18's are twice as efficient as the LMS-18 and also half the $$$, so that would probably be the wisest move given his budget.
A nu6000DSP will easily power two sealed or ported UXL-18's.

Obviously DIY only makes sense if you have woodworking equipment, or know someone who does, or can pay someone who does (there are a few in the DIY section that could).

Generally people that do DIY, do it because they are seeking results that simply aren't possible using OEM-subs, and/or at the price level they are looking to save.

$1000 in OEM-land gets you a decent or mid-fi subwoofer; where as in DIY-land, $1000 gets you all but the bestest subwoofer on earth.
If you can swing glue and a powered screwdriver around, then you are halfway there! (although I wouldn't recommend swinging glue around, LOL )
I am not debating that...all I am saying is the difference in output is not as drastic. Of course DIY is where it's at no doubt in my mind for all out performance vs dollar. However 2-3 1000.00 oem-land subs can satisfy about 95% all bass enthusiasts. You are in the category of very extreme. Most people would look at my setup and think I am crazy and it is nothing compared to yours.
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post #13 of 19 Old 08-30-2014, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for everyone help.

So it appears my options are:

1) Keep the existing DD15. It sound decent where it is at. Pretty flat response. Some localization.
2) Add a 2nd Sub to the pair with the DD15.
3) Sell DD15 and start from scratch.

I think I'm leaning towards #3 . Since I have very good room correction with my Anthem D2...I kind of feel like the DD15s built in room correction is $$ that is going to waste (currently is turned off)...and that two possibly smaller subs with similar performance and no $$ tied up in on board EQ or room correction would give me a better overall solution and not break the bank.

Assuming funds I already have and selling the DD15 would put me in $2-2.5K range.

Room size (28.5 X 12.5 X 7) = roughly 2,500. HT use 90% of the time.

Should I be looking at Sealed Subs?
I've highlighted the areas in the room in gree that OK for subwoofwer placement in the attached drawing.
There are some width limitations for new potential subs as the left wall and behind screen wall will accommodate 18" max.

Any thoughts type, brand, quantity and location given the budget and restraints listed above?
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post #14 of 19 Old 08-31-2014, 09:42 AM
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Is there a reason the back left corner isn't in green?

Sealed vs ported, the ultimate argument. It really depends on your goals. Do you want to go low? If so how low? You want to be able play down to 10hz, 15hz? Honestly, you're best bang for buck would be DIY or AIY (assemble it yourself). DIYsoundgroup has some awesome flat packs, then there's chalugadps flat packs for martycubes (lots of choices in size also). His work is impeccable, and you might have more driver choices since he would be able to possibly customize the cabinet for you, and build it for a little more. Here is a link to a thread where he built custom enclosures for UXL18's.

If you don't want to go that route, I'd look at PSA, SVS, Rythmik or Reaction. Hard to go wrong with any sub from those 4. I'm really like Reaction Audio, I think their subs look awesome, and my understanding is they sound even better. Lots of options either way.

Personally, after building my own, I won't buy another sub. But, not everyone wants to build their own. I think the DIY or AIY is the best way to go. But, that's only my personal opinion.

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post #15 of 19 Old 08-31-2014, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post
Personally, after building my own, I won't buy another sub. But, not everyone wants to build their own. I think the DIY or AIY is the best way to go. But, that's only my personal opinion.
+1, I built the same Tuba HT as Rowan, but I have two. They get me 120 plus db without even breaking a sweat, for a total investment of less than a grand including the amp. I don't know how loud they can go, my meter gives out at 126 db, and they've still got plenty more to give.
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post #16 of 19 Old 08-31-2014, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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The reason the back left corner in the theater isn't green (possible sub placement on the drawing) is that's because the door there is the only entry to the theater, and that's the only walking path to the seats. The other door towards the front is the door to the equipment room.

If I stick with a Sealed Sub...recommendations for a single or multiple subs for my room with a price $2500 - $3000K (total).

Thanks.

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post #17 of 19 Old 09-01-2014, 06:11 PM
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$3k, I would be looking at either three Reaction PS 215x or three Hsu VTF15h, or two Rythmik FV15HP. Three Reaction PV15x may be good too and would stick closer to the 2.5k end of your budget.
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post #18 of 19 Old 09-03-2014, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
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How about 2 PSA XS30SE's placed at the 1/4 wall placement on front wall? I've always been a fan of sealed subs.

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post #19 of 19 Old 09-03-2014, 08:42 PM
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The XS30's are fantastic subs...to aswer you question about placement, 1/4 posotions on the front wall could work well but you really will not know until you get the subs in room. That being said, I would think placin one in the front of the room and the other in the rear would do a better job smoothing room modes.
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