Subwoofer Riser ... What will it do for my situation??? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 41 Old 08-31-2014, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Subwoofer Riser ... What will it do for my situation???

My room is very bad in terms of acoustics. One thing that's helping is a big sectional rug that covers 70% of the room floor. My walls are bare, there is absolutely no acoustic treatment in the room. Even my Sub is actually standing on the hardwood floor.

So I was thinking .... since the sub is currently standing on a bare hardwood floor .... what will a riser do for me?

On Amazon I read lots of positive reviews. People saying that adding a riser was like getting a new sub.

I am thinking about this one
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER


Comments?

thank you

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post #2 of 41 Old 08-31-2014, 06:57 PM
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A sub riser will do nothing for you, sorry. Your F12 sub is likely well made enough that mechanical damping will not do it any good. Sub risers could only help crappy subs that vibrate a lot, which are mostly those high excursion small woofer mini subs. If you want to improve your bass, measure your response at your listening position and place the sub in an optimal spot. Get another F12 to shore up nulls outside of that placement. It is especially easy for you since your receiver has Audyssey's Sub EQ. But you can't really do anything beneficial regarding subs until you know have measured what it is doing in your room. Until then, you are flying blind.
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post #3 of 41 Old 08-31-2014, 07:13 PM
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I've used various Auralex risers/isolators for a few years now, and have found they provide benefits with regards to decoupling the subwoofer from the floor. That has minimized the rattles from things like blinds, thermostats, etc. I wouldn't classify the differences as 'getting a new sub', but it has made things much more enjoyable for me.

My only gripe is that Auralex charges way too much of their SubDude line of products. Hopefully a competitor comes along so the prices drop to something more reasonable.

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post #4 of 41 Old 08-31-2014, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
A sub riser will do nothing for you, sorry. Your F12 sub is likely well made enough that mechanical damping will not do it any good. Sub risers could only help crappy subs that vibrate a lot, which are mostly those high excursion small woofer mini subs. If you want to improve your bass, measure your response at your listening position and place the sub in an optimal spot. Get another F12 to shore up nulls outside of that placement. It is especially easy for you since your receiver has Audyssey's Sub EQ. But you can't really do anything beneficial regarding subs until you know have measured what it is doing in your room. Until then, you are flying blind.

100% ... I was wondering how you guys measure the room acoustics and get those cool looking EQ graphs that show how sound is produced in the room. I am sure my graph would be all over the place.

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post #5 of 41 Old 08-31-2014, 07:32 PM
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Room Equalization Wizard, which is freeware. Follow a REW tutorial. You will need a decent SPL meter and a decent audio interface for a PC. Neither need to be really expensive. A lot of folks use MiniDSP also, but that is a bit more costly at $200 with the Umik microphone.
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post #6 of 41 Old 08-31-2014, 07:34 PM
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You can buy a calibrated usb mic (available at www.parts-express.com, or the www.minidsp.com UMIK-1) for use with your computer and a software program called REW (available at Home Theater Shack). There is also a product called Omnimic from Parts-Express, a kit that includes the software interface for your computer as well as a calibrated usb mic. There are threads here on avsforum that explain how to use them and interpret the graphs.
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post #7 of 41 Old 08-31-2014, 07:56 PM
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Oh, and I doubt the foam pad (its not a riser), whether Auralex or a DIY for less $ if you really want to try that, would do much of anything. Two of my three subs sit on a bare wood floor (most of the room is carpeted, tho), no issues. Lots of threads on the subject in any case https://www.google.com/#q=auralex+pad+site:avsforum.com

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post #8 of 41 Old 08-31-2014, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
My room is very bad in terms of acoustics. One thing that's helping is a big sectional rug that covers 70% of the room floor. My walls are bare, there is absolutely no acoustic treatment in the room. Even my Sub is actually standing on the hardwood floor.

So I was thinking .... since the sub is currently standing on a bare hardwood floor .... what will a riser do for me?

On Amazon I read lots of positive reviews. People saying that adding a riser was like getting a new sub.

I am thinking about this one
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER


Comments?

thank you
I actually built my own riser out of a piece of plywood and a 2x4 cut in 3 pieces for the support, with some hard foam glued to the bottom. It does help with vibrations and rattles, especially if you have a wood sub-floor. I find down-firing subs create more "havoc" with vibrations and rattles than front-firing.

I currently have my Outlaw LFM-1 Plus on my homemade rider and it does help decouple the sub from the floor. It's a noticeable difference with it sitting on the floor vs. sitting on the riser.
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post #9 of 41 Old 08-31-2014, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
My room is very bad in terms of acoustics. One thing that's helping is a big sectional rug that covers 70% of the room floor. My walls are bare, there is absolutely no acoustic treatment in the room. Even my Sub is actually standing on the hardwood floor.
You've already diagnosed the problem. The cure is to fix the room.
If you want to see if a pad will help have a friend lift the sub off the floor while you listen, eyes closed, so that you don't know when the sub is on the floor and when it isn't. If it really does sound better when lifted put a piece of this under it:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/TrafficMA...0300/202015909
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post #10 of 41 Old 08-31-2014, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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So if not a riser ... what are the biggest problems with my room?


Room Info

20ft by 12ft
Speakers are pointed towards the 12 feet side, so ear to speaker is about 10 feet
Area rug covers 70% of room
Window treatments are very light, not heavy drapes.
Room opens up to a hall. Opening is about 7 feet out of 12 feet wall.
Speakers point towards leather sectional and no wall art. Bare wall.
One corner is a book case shelf with lots of books.

What are the problem spots?

thanks

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post #11 of 41 Old 08-31-2014, 09:51 PM
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Like you said, your walls are bare. This can make for some harsh acoustic reflections that is bad for a flat response. The good news is REW will let you know what the problems are so you can target the peak reflection points. The treatments you put up should be determined by your room response. But the more soft things you put up in your room, generally the more damping there will be. Thick rugs, thick curtains, soft decor, can all help and need not make your room look like a anechoic chamber. You don't need to turn your listening room into a recording both to get good sound.
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post #12 of 41 Old 08-31-2014, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
Like you said, your walls are bare. This can make for some harsh acoustic reflections that is bad for a flat response. The good news is REW will let you know what the problems are so you can target the peak reflection points. The treatments you put up should be determined by your room response. But the more soft things you put up in your room, generally the more damping there will be. Thick rugs, thick curtains, soft decor, can all help and need not make your room look like a anechoic chamber. You don't need to turn your listening room into a recording both to get good sound.
+1.

It's just like clapping in a room that's all hardwood and concrete walls, it just echoes. The same is happening in your room. Shadyj gave some great advice. Also, measuring your room will help.

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post #13 of 41 Old 09-01-2014, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
hat are the biggest problems with my room?
Area rug covers 70% of room
Window treatments are very light, not heavy drapes.
Bare wall.

What are the problem spots?
You pointed them out yourself.

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post #14 of 41 Old 09-01-2014, 08:05 AM
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Get some acoustic panels from ATS Acoustics or GIK Acoustics. That should solve 80% of your problems. Then get a second F12 to smooth response in the room. Like Jim mentioned, the Auralex SubDude may help a bit with rattles on the walls or small objects, nothing else. I have two F12SEs, each one on an Auralex SubDude HT but I did not perceive any improvement in sound, only better decoupling and less rattle on windows. The big improvement in my room was after put 10 acoustic panels from ATS, also it was the cheapest AV purchase I made in years.

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post #15 of 41 Old 09-02-2014, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Get some acoustic panels from ATS Acoustics or GIK Acoustics. That should solve 80% of your problems. Then get a second F12 to smooth response in the room. Like Jim mentioned, the Auralex SubDude may help a bit with rattles on the walls or small objects, nothing else. I have two F12SEs, each one on an Auralex SubDude HT but I did not perceive any improvement in sound, only better decoupling and less rattle on windows. The big improvement in my room was after put 10 acoustic panels from ATS, also it was the cheapest AV purchase I made in years.

Great advise. Thank you. Now just need to find those things that will look OK with the room interior as it is a family living room.

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post #16 of 41 Old 09-02-2014, 09:52 AM
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ATS acoustic panels are beautiful. I'll post some pictures later to show you how they look in my living room. They are very easy to integrate with your decor.

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post #17 of 41 Old 09-02-2014, 11:55 AM
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Here you go!!

All my panels are ATS Acoustic in Wine Microsuede. You can see different sizes and thickness. Some panels are custom build. Some are 2" and some 4", the 4" are bass trap with full range absorption coefficients.











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post #18 of 41 Old 09-02-2014, 12:34 PM
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Pads will reduce mechanically-induced vibrations to a degree sure, but it won't stop acoustically-induced vibrations at the higher SPLs.

Room treatments aren't effective below 200hz, it's for treble and mids.

Moving a sub and/or EQ'ing it is the only thing that can really be done. There is no perfect room, although Fat's room appears near-perfect somehow.
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post #19 of 41 Old 09-02-2014, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Pads will reduce mechanically-induced vibrations to a degree sure, but it won't stop acoustically-induced vibrations at the higher SPLs.

Room treatments aren't effective below 200hz, it's for treble and mids.

Moving a sub and/or EQ'ing it is the only thing that can really be done. There is no perfect room, although Fat's room appears near-perfect somehow.
These are Absorption Coefficients for ATS Acoustics bass trap panels (4" with open back):



In my room they are effective.

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post #20 of 41 Old 09-08-2014, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
You can buy a calibrated usb mic (available at www.parts-express.com, or the www.minidsp.com UMIK-1) for use with your computer and a software program called REW (available at Home Theater Shack). There is also a product called Omnimic from Parts-Express, a kit that includes the software interface for your computer as well as a calibrated usb mic. There are threads here on avsforum that explain how to use them and interpret the graphs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
Room Equalization Wizard, which is freeware. Follow a REW tutorial. You will need a decent SPL meter and a decent audio interface for a PC. Neither need to be really expensive. A lot of folks use MiniDSP also, but that is a bit more costly at $200 with the Umik microphone.
Sorry guys if I sound like a tool, but I have never done this before and am very interested to post my findings here with those cool or in my case, sad graphs :-)

I found this Mic on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-E...owViewpoints=1

Looks like it comes with some software to calibrate it. People say that it works great with Room EQ Wizerd.

Now, the way this would work is ... plug it into my laptop, run some sounds they'd provide and let the software show the graphs based on where my sitting position is?

thank you

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post #21 of 41 Old 09-08-2014, 09:04 AM
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Check out some of the tutorials on REW
. There are others, and they make the process more accessible.
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post #22 of 41 Old 09-08-2014, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
Sorry guys if I sound like a tool, but I have never done this before and am very interested to post my findings here with those cool or in my case, sad graphs :-)

I found this Mic on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-E...owViewpoints=1

Looks like it comes with some software to calibrate it. People say that it works great with Room EQ Wizerd.

Now, the way this would work is ... plug it into my laptop, run some sounds they'd provide and let the software show the graphs based on where my sitting position is?

thank you
You got it. Funny you can get it cheaper from Amazon than from Dayton/Parts-Express. It comes with a calibration file rather than software, so that software such as REW can work with that specific microphone accurately. Here's the major thread here on use http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...et-graphs.html

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post #23 of 41 Old 09-08-2014, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
Sorry guys if I sound like a tool, but I have never done this before and am very interested to post my findings here with those cool or in my case, sad graphs :-)

I found this Mic on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-E...owViewpoints=1

Looks like it comes with some software to calibrate it. People say that it works great with Room EQ Wizerd.

Now, the way this would work is ... plug it into my laptop, run some sounds they'd provide and let the software show the graphs based on where my sitting position is?

thank you
That Dayton model is NOT USB, it is XLR. If you don't have an external audio interface like a M-Audio ProFire 610 (firewire) or a USB audio interface you won't be able to use that mic. The one you need is the Dayton UMM-6.

http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-U...udio+EMM-6+usb
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post #24 of 41 Old 09-08-2014, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
That Dayton model is NOT USB, it is XLR. If you don't have an external audio interface like a M-Audio ProFire 610 (firewire) or a USB audio interface you won't be able to use that mic. The one you need is the Dayton UMM-6.

http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-U...udio+EMM-6+usb
Arrggh, didn't notice in the pic and their description leaves that out whereas its pointed out on the parts-express page. Good catch! Might expain the discount....

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post #25 of 41 Old 09-15-2014, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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so, I got some updates .... :-)

I've purchased both, Auralex SubDude and AmpDude. Even though I think AmpDude was designed for an Amp and not a sub... still gave it a try.

To keep it pure, I decided to test out the 3 options (no riser vs subdude vs ampdude) using my SACD player music running in EXT-IN setting .. meaning pure pure. So, no audyssey correction or anything.

This was a good workout. About 7 times had to lift my 50lb or so Sub. Going back and forward with the same 2 songs.

Results ... It works !!!
I do lots if A/B testing with equipment. It's not always 100% scientific as I only use my ear to judge, but this one was one of the easiest A/B testing I've done.

Keep in mind, my sub was on the wood floor. So, going from wooden floor to a riser helped.

When I placed it on the Subdude ... sound became a bit easier on the ear. Floor vibration calmed down a bit but was still there. To me, it was somewhat an improvement. However, once I placed the sub on the AmpDude ... now it became very pleasant to my ear. Eliminated floor vibration probably by 50%. Good enough for me. It seems like it eliminated the unpleasant hum, or whatever you may call it. Bottom line ... bass was now a part of music instead of vibration.

Keep in mind, my Sub is pretty decent. Rythmik F12 (almost a thousand bucks). Some people said that risers work only for cheap subs. I disagree now.

Anyway ... I have yet to test the sound now with Audyssey on some hard hitting movies but I am assuming that now I'd need to rerun the room correction software before I proceed.

Again, going by just pure source from SACD player ... bass became much much nicer to feel.

I now wonder what those ATS 2 in panels will do for me once I start covering my bare walls.

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post #26 of 41 Old 09-15-2014, 10:28 AM
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It sounds like the floor surface was uneven. I think a few small pieces of polyurethane foam under the feet would have worked just as well without being nearly as expensive or ugly looking.
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post #27 of 41 Old 09-15-2014, 12:06 PM
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Had to go look up the ampdude thing not having heard of that....the bullet points in the Amazon ad:

  • Creates A Cleaner, More Accurate Mid- and Low-Frequency Response
  • Decouples The Amp From The Floor For Incredible Purity.
  • Improves The Sound Of Your Amplifier
  • Reduces Coloration And Muddy Sound
  • Diminishes Structural Vibrations H Supports Compact Amplifiers
Good golly that's a lot of bull. They do seem to know their market, though. I never put an amp on my floor so what do I know

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post #28 of 41 Old 09-15-2014, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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It sounds like the floor surface was uneven. I think a few small pieces of polyurethane foam under the feet would have worked just as well without being nearly as expensive or ugly looking.
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Had to go look up the ampdude thing not having heard of that....the bullet points in the Amazon ad:

  • Creates A Cleaner, More Accurate Mid- and Low-Frequency Response
  • Decouples The Amp From The Floor For Incredible Purity.
  • Improves The Sound Of Your Amplifier
  • Reduces Coloration And Muddy Sound
  • Diminishes Structural Vibrations H Supports Compact Amplifiers
Good golly that's a lot of bull. They do seem to know their market, though. I never put an amp on my floor so what do I know
With all due respect .. and I mean it because from 4-5 forums where I ask questions, this one is one the best if not THE best ... I simply heard the difference.

Also, there are hundreds of reviews for these products not from novices but from people that have been sound engineers and pro audio enthusiasts their entire life. People that also used EQ software to see the before and after. On top of that ... just go on blu ray forum community and look at all those great home theaters ... many actually use these risers.

Now ... I think that if my room was treated with bass traps, carpeting, etc, etc ... these risers wouldn't do much. But, considering my bare floor, poor room acoustic, I think something like this riser actually does something.

Sorry guys but I am a believer.

If it was all in my head, I'd think that both ampdude and subdude were the same, but even though AmpDude costs less, for me it works the best.

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post #29 of 41 Old 09-15-2014, 04:00 PM
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With all due respect .. I simply heard the difference.
Maybe you did, but without measurements to back it up it's a matter of personal opinion. I have measured my gear with and without both risers and spikes, in the room, in the next room and in the room below. There was absolutely no difference. I've never seen a peer reviewed study that proved these work. Until I do they'll remain snake oil in my book.
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post #30 of 41 Old 09-15-2014, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe you did, but without measurements to back it up it's a matter of personal opinion. I have measured my gear with and without both risers and spikes, in the room, in the next room and in the room below. There was absolutely no difference. I've never seen a peer reviewed study that proved these work. Until I do they'll remain snake oil in my book.
I'd be curious to know about your flooring and house structure. Also if you have any other room treatment. Wouldn't that make a difference?

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