Dual SB-1000's or Single SB-2000? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 10 Old 11-28-2014, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Dual SB-1000's or Single SB-2000?

Trying to make a decision on this. From what I understand, the low frequency output from two SB-1000's would pretty much match the single SB-2000.

I like the idea of having the subs mirror the stereo setup for 'smoothing' or whatnot. It would cost more but I think aesthetically it could be pretty nice as well.

This is for a stereo music setup only, home theatre performance has absolutely zero relevance for me. I listen to pop, rock and hardcore, mostly. The room is large but these are the biggest subs that pass the WAF and SVS says they will perform well in my room.
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post #2 of 10 Old 11-28-2014, 12:08 PM
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Since HT doesn't matter*, I'd go with a single SB-2000. Especially if adding another one later on - as required or desired - is an option.


(*I'm assuming you've got a "sweet spot" for your music listening, so the benefit of multi-sub FR smoothing isn't required.)
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post #3 of 10 Old 11-28-2014, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Eljay,

Thanks for the reply. Actually, this room doesn't exist yet as it is being built. Also, the room will probably not be set up with furniture to have a sweet spot to sit in. That's why I decided to get Martin Logan LX16's, because they use a ribbonesque tweeter with extremely wide dispersion characteristics compared to dome tweeters.

Also, I will have absolutely no control over placement of the subs, they will be either in one or both corners below the Martin Logans, tucked under some built in cabinetry (don't worry, they will be protruding so that no sound is hitting the cabinets directly).

Do these facts make the dual sub option any better of a choice? Bass frequencies would then be coming from the same places as the bookshelves' sound.
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post #4 of 10 Old 11-28-2014, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlubbs View Post
Hi Eljay,

Thanks for the reply. Actually, this room doesn't exist yet as it is being built. Also, the room will probably not be set up with furniture to have a sweet spot to sit in. That's why I decided to get Martin Logan LX16's, because they use a ribbonesque tweeter with extremely wide dispersion characteristics compared to dome tweeters.

Also, I will have absolutely no control over placement of the subs, they will be either in one or both corners below the Martin Logans, tucked under some built in cabinetry (don't worry, they will be protruding so that no sound is hitting the cabinets directly).

Do these facts make the dual sub option any better of a choice? Bass frequencies would then be coming from the same places as the bookshelves' sound.
Dual subs will, most likely, only be beneficial if you are able to place them where they need to go to produce a smooth frequency response. If you insist on placing them poorly, you will likely go no benefit whatsoever from two subs, and in fact may get worse sound quality.

A comparison would be the placement of your two main speakers. Your wife just cannot tolerate the way they look out in the open, so you place one under the couch, and the other in the closet to make her happy with your hobby/passion/interest. How good do you think the sound quality or imaging will be?

Hide your dual subs where your wife wants them and you might as well not bother. Get the single SB2000, or grow a set and get two but place them where they need to go.

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post #5 of 10 Old 11-28-2014, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Dual subs will, most likely, only be beneficial if you are able to place them where they need to go to produce a smooth frequency response. If you insist on placing them poorly, you will likely go no benefit whatsoever from two subs, and in fact may get worse sound quality.

A comparison would be the placement of your two main speakers. Your wife just cannot tolerate the way they look out in the open, so you place one under the couch, and the other in the closet to make her happy with your hobby/passion/interest. How good do you think the sound quality or imaging will be?

Hide your dual subs where your wife wants them and you might as well not bother. Get the single SB2000, or grow a set and get two but place them where they need to go.
This is our great room and aesthetics re: placement are a priority for me as well (size is the WAF issue). It has nothing to do with me not 'having a set', but thanks for that.

Ignorant comment aside, I do appreciate that there is some real advice here. If dual subs are that finicky though, why do legitimate full-range floorstanding speakers sound so great with music? The sub drivers are attached to the midrange and tweeters in that scenario. I don't see how a placement that has the same effect would sound worse than having one subwoofer. I am, however, not an expert, so if someone can expound on this, I would be thankful.
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post #6 of 10 Old 11-28-2014, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlubbs View Post
This is our great room and aesthetics re: placement are a priority for me as well (size is the WAF issue). It has nothing to do with me not 'having a set', but thanks for that.

Ignorant comment aside, I do appreciate that there is some real advice here. If dual subs are that finicky though, why do legitimate full-range floorstanding speakers sound so great with music? The sub drivers are attached to the midrange and tweeters in that scenario. I don't see how a placement that has the same effect would sound worse than having one subwoofer. I am, however, not an expert, so if someone can expound on this, I would be thankful.
Depending on where you cross the subs with the main speakers, localization should not be an issue. Crossed at 80Hz or below, most people cannot tell where the bass is coming from if subs are placed somewhere other than close to the main speakers. If you were to crossover higher than that, placing the subs with each main speaker would have the advantage of eliminating any localization issues. However, it is very unlikely to change or improve the frequency response. If one is interested in sound quality, a flat frequency response of +/- 3dB is generally desired. Almost always, a single source of low frequency sounds in a room will result in large peaks and nulls in the frequency response, often times +/- 20 dB or more. Remember that 6 dB is considered twice as loud, so a 20 dB swing will result in some frequencies being much louder, while some may be almost non existent. Placing two subs in front of the room on the same wall next to main speakers, rather than placing them optimally for the best frequency response, will typically make no difference, or perhaps even make worse, the FR of the single subwoofer. The reason full range speakers sound so good, quite honestly, is because the majority of people have never heard a true, flat, accurate, +/- 3 dB frequency response. You don't know what you are missing if you have never experienced it. In this case, a picture is worth a thousand words. I will post three graphs. The first shows the best frequency response that can be achieved in my room from two main speakers that play flat down to 60 Hz, paired a single subwoofer in its best possible location. The second illustrates two subs placed optimally for the best frequency response. Placing the second sub "asthetically" results in basically the exact same frequency response as the single. You will note in the second graph that most of the large null is gone, replaced by a peak. With eq, the peak, or peaks, can be pulled down to a flat response. Nulls can not be boosted. The first graph is what most people probably hear when listening to "quality" audiophile full range speakers. Granted, this could have been improved some with eq, but not fixed. The third graph is two properly placed subs, with eq. This could be completely flat had I wanted it, but the rise in the lowest frequencies was intentionally put in to provide more impact when watching movies at low volume.
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AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

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post #7 of 10 Old 11-28-2014, 07:01 PM
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To add a bit more, I would actually change my initial suggestion. Between two SB1000's and a single SB2000, I think I would try the two SB1000's. I believe it would give you more output capability, would allow you to cross them higher without localization if placed near your mains, and, if you ever decided to check your frequency response with measurements, would give you more flexibility to experiment with other placement options if you change your mind.

AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

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LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

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post #8 of 10 Old 11-29-2014, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
To add a bit more, I would actually change my initial suggestion. Between two SB1000's and a single SB2000, I think I would try the two SB1000's. I believe it would give you more output capability, would allow you to cross them higher without localization if placed near your mains, and, if you ever decided to check your frequency response with measurements, would give you more flexibility to experiment with other placement options if you change your mind.
Bear123, thanks for all the info. How does one EQ bass like you have? I find it quite amazing what you were able to achieve, although I understand that requires optimal room placement.

SoundandVision measured my LX-16's/Motion 15's as one of the flattest speakers they have ever measured, but the -3db point was at 83hz. Meanwhile, the SB-1000s look to be supremely flat to almost 200hz. I suppose with dual subwoofers then, I could crossover anywhere in that range. At what frequency will the higher position of the bookshelves become more important, I wonder?
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post #9 of 10 Old 11-29-2014, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by TheBlubbs View Post
Bear123, thanks for all the info. How does one EQ bass like you have? I find it quite amazing what you were able to achieve, although I understand that requires optimal room placement.

SoundandVision measured my LX-16's/Motion 15's as one of the flattest speakers they have ever measured, but the -3db point was at 83hz. Meanwhile, the SB-1000s look to be supremely flat to almost 200hz. I suppose with dual subwoofers then, I could crossover anywhere in that range. At what frequency will the higher position of the bookshelves become more important, I wonder?
I don't think the height of the speakers will be an issue, although generally, you should have the tweeters at ear level. EQ of your sub(s) can be done two ways. With an AVR that has subwoofer eq capability, such as sub eq HT, or via an external eq placed in line with your sub(s), such as the miniDSP I use. You will also need to measure your room. I use REW, a free program available from home theater shack, an HDMI laptop, and a Umik1 mic. Once you measure and do all the adjusting that you can with placement, phase, delay, gain adjustments etc, REW generates an eq profile that is loaded into the miniDSP to flatten out or customize your response.

Also, remember, a speakers native response has almost nothing to do with the response you will get in room. This is controlled by the room, placement, and eq.

AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

miniDSP

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post #10 of 10 Old 11-30-2014, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks bear123 for the advice. After discussing it with the family I ordered a single SB-2000 for now and may eventually get another if I feel I want to.

Here's a quick question for you. With a 100% music application are the benefits of a ported subwoofer obvious at all in a medium-large room? Looking at the listed frequency response charts for the SB-2000, it doesn't start tapering off at all until ~30hz. As a drummer who has recorded a lot of albums my understanding is that kick drum has the lowest fundamental frequency in most music and usually music has little to no content below 30hz. In fact, I know many mastering engineers engage hi-pass filters to remove anything below that range. I suppose there are probably significant exceptions for electronic dance music, which I also listen to. My main concern is that I want to have a very solid, quick and powerful kick drum response in rock and pop. For the last 6 or 7 years I have been using an AV123/Onix X-Sub, for what it is worth. Again, film effects are not relevant for this room, although I plan to get a PB for my future movie and gaming space.
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