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post #1 of 65 Old 12-04-2014, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so whats missing?

I just upgraded my whole system. I was running an Onkyo TX-NR515 with Klipsch Synergy speakers and a Klipsch KW-100 sub. I've switched over to the following:

Sony STR-DN1050
Klipsch RF82 Fronts
Klipsch RC62 Center
Klipsch RS42 Surrounds

I wanted to try the system out with the KW-100 sub I have, thinking that it produced enough bass for me. The thing is, Im VERY happy with my sound now, except that the bass, while it seems like enough volume, sounds boomy and flabby. I think maybe its struggling to keep up with the RF82's?? Or maybe its just the mix of good speakers with a crappy sub...I didnt really notice the problem with my old speakers, but they were never that clear either. I'm not sure...Im fairly new to this.

Anyway, I really didn't want to dump more money into this, but if a new sub will drastically improve my tone even more then I'll sell this one and try to move into something else. Or maybe its how I have it setup? If its a new sub I need then here's what Im looking for:

Budget: Depends...maybe 600-800 tops? I dont know what it would take to move up from what Ive got. I'd like to try to find a deal and dont want to spend excessively (or my wife will have my head).

Size: Not really a HUGE consideration, but I dont want a monstrous sub....I dont have that much space. and then there's the WAF.

Room: Seating area is only about 14x11. BUT, its open to my office space of about 10x11, and multiple rooms and hallways.

Uses: About 40% TV, 20/20/20 Gaming, movies, music.

Listening habits: Usually fairly modest for TV and gaming. I like to feel the room shake when I watch movies though and I crank my music to concert level at times (when no one else is home). I mostly listen to rock.

Appearance: Decent. No eye sores but I'm not going to ask it out on a date.

Timeframe: Not a big deal, but I would like to buy local (Canada - Vancouver area) so its easy to return if I'm not satisfied, OR order from someone like SVS that offers free returns.

Last edited by savage8190; 12-04-2014 at 09:59 PM.
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post #2 of 65 Old 12-04-2014, 10:20 PM
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Your in Canada so that limits options within your budget. I would say PB2000 if you can accommodate the size. SB2k if you require a smaller footprint also gloss black helps with WAF.
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post #3 of 65 Old 12-04-2014, 10:26 PM
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hey good news I am in Vancouver and I have a SVS SB2000 for sale, still under the 45 day return window but I can sell it to you. You will save on taxes and a bit extra.

Its packed up and ready to be setup if interested.

This is the one I have for sale:

http://www.sonicboomaudio.com/box-su...ofer-p-60.html

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post #4 of 65 Old 12-04-2014, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
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hey good news I am in Vancouver and I have a SVS SB2000 for sale, still under the 45 day return window but I can sell it to you. You will save on taxes and a bit extra.

Its packed up and ready to be setup if interested.

This is the one I have for sale:

http://www.sonicboomaudio.com/box-su...ofer-p-60.html
Oh believe me...Ive been salivating a bit at your ad on Craigslist already

Not sure if I should go for the PB or SB though...and I think I'd like to have the option to return.
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post #5 of 65 Old 12-04-2014, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by savage8190 View Post
Oh believe me...Ive been salivating a bit at your ad on Craigslist already

Not sure if I should go for the PB or SB though...and I think I'd like to have the option to return.
You can still return mine...I have until Jan 6

Lots of interest in the unit but people keep saying they want to wait till boxing day for a sale....not a chance on a SVS branded woofer.

Anyways good luck on your search, you know where to find me.

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post #6 of 65 Old 12-04-2014, 10:56 PM
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In your volume of space a single sub can only do so much. You don't specify what you did to set it up. Did you determine the best location in the room or are forced into a location outside of that consideration? What did you do in terms of setup by an avr with bass management? Not familiar with Sony's proprietary thing but not sure what it does on that model of avr (haven't looked at the manual), but doesn't that model have an automated routine with a microphone? What were the resulting numbers for bass trim and crossover? That's not a world shaking sub, doesn't go particularly low or loud (altho hard to tell from the specs offered a lot about performance), but it should sound reasonably decent with your speakers. Probably a matter of tuning it in, but need your description of what you've done so far....

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #7 of 65 Old 12-04-2014, 11:08 PM - Thread Starter
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In your volume of space a single sub can only do so much. You don't specify what you did to set it up. Did you determine the best location in the room or are forced into a location outside of that consideration? What did you do in terms of setup by an avr with bass management? Not familiar with Sony's proprietary thing but not sure what it does on that model of avr (haven't looked at the manual), but doesn't that model have an automated routine with a microphone? What were the resulting numbers for bass trim and crossover? That's not a world shaking sub, doesn't go particularly low or loud (altho hard to tell from the specs offered a lot about performance), but it should sound reasonably decent with your speakers. Probably a matter of tuning it in, but need your description of what you've done so far....
Im forced to put it in one location. Its in the corner sort of tucked between my loveseat and the front left speaker (lots of space back there...its not snug or anything). Its square to and a few inches from either wall. The sub is down-firing. I ran the auto-calibration with the AVR. The speakers seemed very accurate but it set the sub as being quite far away (14 feet, when its only about 9) and set it to +10db...I imagine this is to compensate for its relative low output compared to the rest of the system? I left my front speakers set to large, the center to 80Hz and surround to 100Hz.

This is the first time Ive really tried to set up a system properly....Im not sure if this is correct. Learning as I go. Thanks!
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post #8 of 65 Old 12-04-2014, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by savage8190 View Post
Im forced to put it in one location. Its in the corner sort of tucked between my loveseat and the front left speaker (lots of space back there...its not snug or anything). Its square to and a few inches from either wall. The sub is down-firing. I ran the auto-calibration with the AVR. The speakers seemed very accurate but it set the sub as being quite far away (14 feet, when its only about 9) and set it to +10db...I imagine this is to compensate for its relative low output compared to the rest of the system? I left my front speakers set to large, the center to 80Hz and surround to 100Hz.

This is the first time Ive really tried to set up a system properly....Im not sure if this is correct. Learning as I go. Thanks!
Location may not be ideal, depends on your room. Delay is a timing thing, the additional delay by the processing in the sub can affect the number where it's not just a simple physical distance thing. Your avr is needing to output more (perhaps max, depending on range of that control) in the way of the preamp signal. You want the sub trim to be zero or a little below generally. Try turning down the gain on the sub and re-running the auto setup. I'd change the fronts to small so you get proper bass management with the sub. Crossovers sound good.

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #9 of 65 Old 12-04-2014, 11:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Location may not be ideal, depends on your room. Delay is a timing thing, the additional delay by the processing in the sub can affect the number where it's not just a simple physical distance thing. Your avr is needing to output more (perhaps max, depending on range of that control) in the way of the preamp signal. You want the sub trim to be zero or a little below generally. Try turning down the gain on the sub and re-running the auto setup. I'd change the fronts to small so you get proper bass management with the sub. Crossovers sound good.
The level on the sub is actually only at 5 (out of 11, which I thought was funny), should I turn it down more? Or maybe do I need to drop the db on the AVR (sorry, thats what you mean by trim right? Im new to the lingo)...why would it set it high? I tried setting the fronts to small at 80Hz as well but liked it even less. I think the bass from those 8" drivers sounds better than whats coming out of my sub...
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post #10 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 12:21 AM
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The level on the sub is actually only at 5 (out of 11, which I thought was funny), should I turn it down more? Or maybe do I need to drop the db on the AVR (sorry, thats what you mean by trim right? Im new to the lingo)...why would it set it high? I tried setting the fronts to small at 80Hz as well but liked it even less. I think the bass from those 8" drivers sounds better than whats coming out of my sub...

When I said trim I meat the bass level set by your avr. It's a balancing act, you want your avr to see your sub around zero generaly for max benefits, perhaps even below depending on your system/setup/taste. You have your sub gain a bit high (not unusual to set the gain on the sub from 1/4 to 1/2 of its range) so lower it and rerun the auto setup and change the fronts to small...at least to try it again with this way of setup. Generally even 8" drivers aren't a match for a sub, altho a 10" sub is generally at the lower end of the sub scales....

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #11 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok Ill give it a whirl once I get the kids off to school and let you know how it goes. Thanks for your help!
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post #12 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 08:51 AM
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loveinthehd gives some good advice, but you need to turn the gain on your sub up, not down.

It's setting your sub to +10 and you want it around 0 or a little lower...your sub's gain (on the sub) is set too low.

After that, if you're not getting sufficient bass, turn the sub trim in the AVR up a few db (3-6db). You can keep bumping up the trim (in the AVR) until you're satisfied with the bass level or until you run into headroom issues (the sub starts making funny noises at high volumes).

Just want to re-iterate how important it is to set all speakers to "small" with a crossover of 80hz as well (unless your auto-eq set them higher than 80hz, if so, leave them alone).

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post #13 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Alrighty...I will try that as well. Thanks!
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post #14 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 09:33 AM
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loveinthehd gives some good advice, but you need to turn the gain on your sub up, not down.

It's setting your sub to +10 and you want it around 0 or a little lower...your sub's gain (on the sub) is set too low.

After that, if you're not getting sufficient bass, turn the sub trim in the AVR up a few db (3-6db). You can keep bumping up the trim (in the AVR) until you're satisfied with the bass level or until you run into headroom issues (the sub starts making funny noises at high volumes).

Just want to re-iterate how important it is to set all speakers to "small" with a crossover of 80hz as well (unless your auto-eq set them higher than 80hz, if so, leave them alone).
Oops Thanks, Alan, yes, I meant the other way around.....dental drugs Reminder to also try and max out the crossover on the sub itself (or disable it, depending on how that sub is set up, sometimes an LFE input will do that automatically).

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post #15 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 09:42 AM
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Setting the mains to small is not mandatory. It's a preference. Usually it will work best if set to small and using a crossover to the sub. It's your system, try it both ways and see what works for you.

I run my mains as large and it works quite well. After many back and forth crossover no crossover I prefer the sound with the mains as large and the subs as LFE +main.

You might want to look into the PC2000 as well as the PB. The PC is much easier to place and is actually tuned a little lower per SVS specs.

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post #16 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok I tried it out with the gain halfway, then turned it up slowly. I set the fronts to small and all crossovers to 80, and the sub trim to 0db. I couldnt even hear the sub over the other speakers. I started upping the trim and to get it even remotely on par with the fronts I had to set it to +10...seems the auto setup knows whats up. I set the fronts back to large and that seems to help the sub along a little bit. I think its just too weak to pair with these speakers.

Really, Klipsch recommends their 400 watt 15" reference sub with these speakers I have, I guess I should have expected to be disappointed with a 55 watt 10".
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post #17 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 12:35 PM
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Sorry for the backward thinking earlier (altho many do start with sub gain too high), but you should have the gain on the sub set so that the avr sub trim is about 0 after a re-running of your avr's auto setup. Each time you change, you need to rerun the setup. It just may be the sub isn't up to snuff, though. It takes a while to properly set up a sub, too....is the sub weak only at your listening position or everywhere in the room? Do certain points in the room have stronger bass? You may be sitting in a null.

Number of watts are meaningless without knowing the impedance for the watt rating as well as the sensitivity/impedance of the driver used.

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post #18 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 12:37 PM
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No, no, no....you want to set the gain on your sub so that the auto-eq sets the trim around 0db (personally, I prefer around -8db for max headroom).

Turn up the gain on the sub and re-run the auto-eq until you get the trim right. Then turn up the trim.

The problem is, when you have the sub trim at +10db you have virtually no trim left to play with.


EDIT: LITHD beat me to it.

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post #19 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 12:43 PM
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If you want that sub to sound better plug the port. Tennis ball with some electrical tape wrapped around it works wonders.
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post #20 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry for the backward thinking earlier (altho many do start with sub gain too high), but you should have the gain on the sub set so that the avr sub trim is about 0 after a re-running of your avr's auto setup. Each time you change, you need to rerun the setup. It just may be the sub isn't up to snuff, though. It takes a while to properly set up a sub, too....is the sub weak only at your listening position or everywhere in the room? Do certain points in the room have stronger bass? You may be sitting in a null.

Number of watts are meaningless without knowing the impedance for the watt rating as well as the sensitivity/impedance of the driver used.
I did re-run the setup after changing the gain...it doesn't matter where I set the gain dial, it doesn't budge the trim off +10db. It sounds the same to me in every seat in the room...maybe a little weaker in one particular spot.

I was using a few Blu-Rays to test it out, but Transformers 2 on the final battle scene was pretty eye opening (errr...ear opening?) ...it seemed like there was just a lot of frequencies it couldnt hit. All the spots where you'd expect the bass to hit hard there was just nothing.

Im resigned to the fact that its just too weak and has ****** range. Even my wife said I should just get something else...Im not going to argue with that!
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post #21 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 12:50 PM
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Cool, now that you've done your due diligence and have WAF approval, time for a new sub!

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #22 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 12:52 PM
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Would WAF extend to your own finishing skills? Chalugadp is in your area and does nice AIY kits for Marty sub variations (see the DIY subforum), with a good driver and amp you can do quite well....

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #23 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Would WAF extend to your own finishing skills? Chalugadp is in your area and does nice AIY kits for Marty sub variations (see the DIY subforum), with a good driver and amp you can do quite well....
Ha...I don't think I'd trust myself to build anything thats supposed to look decent...it would probably vibrate itself apart. You should see me with a soldering iron...its a gong show.

Ive been looking at a lot of recommended subs in the forum and I think Im set on SVS. I like the return policy and the warranty. Plus they have a warehouse in Canada so I dont have to pay extra to bring it across the border. Now I just need to settle on a specific model.

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post #24 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I might like to go with the PB-2000 or the PC-2000. My wife likes how the PC looks, and the PB might be a little tight in the spot I have. Its 17.3" wide x 22" deep; the spot I have is about 26x26...I dont know if that leaves it enough room? The sub would be firing right into my loveseat too...maybe not ideal? Whereas the PC is only a 16.5" diameter and its downfiring.

Actually, with the dimensions of the PC I might be able to try it in a couple other places too...is it better to run a long RCA or use the wireless? And is there a good place to get quality RCA's for cheap? Right now Im using a monster one I bought like 15 years ago....its only about 8 feet long though.

We'll be moving at some point and I'll have more space then, but thats maybe 2 years off so it sounds like maybe the PC is ideal.
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post #25 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 02:34 PM
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^

That's more than enough breathing room for the sub.

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post #26 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 02:36 PM
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I did re-run the setup after changing the gain...it doesn't matter where I set the gain dial, it doesn't budge the trim off +10db.
Now that you've decided to upgrade, the point is probably moot....but even if you turn the gain on the sub to max, it still sets it to +10db?? If so, there has got to be something wrong with that sub...or you're sitting in the world's biggest bass null.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC64ii, SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4, SUB: PSA T-18 x 2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #27 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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^

That's more than enough breathing room for the sub.

Monoprice for all your cable needs.
Awesome, thanks!

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I did re-run the setup after changing the gain...it doesn't matter where I set the gain dial, it doesn't budge the trim off +10db.
Now that you've decided to upgrade, the point is probably moot....but even if you turn the gain on the sub to max, it still sets it to +10db?? If so, there has got to be something wrong with that sub...or you're sitting in the world's biggest bass null.
Its just a weak sub. Im pretty sure the one that came with my computer speakers is better... It didnt really keep up that well with my old synergy speakers either when you cranked them up; these Reference speakers make it sound REALLY feeble.

Last edited by savage8190; 12-05-2014 at 03:31 PM.
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post #28 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 11:48 PM - Thread Starter
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So I decided to heck with it and totally re-arranged my living room so the sub isnt buried behind furniture. Now when I run the auto calibration it sets the sub at 8 feet instead of 14 and the db's to -2.5. Makes more sense, and is a bit more apparent, but it still isnt hitting the frequencies I want no matter how I set the level on the avr. In fact, I completely unhooked the sub and left everything set to large and barely notice its gone.

Am I understanding right..the louder I turn it up the harder it is for a sub to hit lower frequencies?
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post #29 of 65 Old 12-05-2014, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savage8190 View Post
So I decided to heck with it and totally re-arranged my living room so the sub isnt buried behind furniture. Now when I run the auto calibration it sets the sub at 8 feet instead of 14 and the db's to -2.5. Makes more sense, and is a bit more apparent, but it still isnt hitting the frequencies I want no matter how I set the level on the avr. In fact, I completely unhooked the sub and left everything set to large and barely notice its gone.

Am I understanding right..the louder I turn it up the harder it is for a sub to hit lower frequencies?

The KW-100 is rated at 55 watt RMS? Yeah.....it is not going to happen.

Sell it on Craigslist and come over to the big boy sandbox.


My office is 10x10 sealed and I use a Polk Audio sub rated at 150RMS and it does not even give me the bass I desire, so I can image what 55watts sounds like in a 14x11 room that is open.

Last edited by NODES; 12-06-2014 at 12:05 AM.
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post #30 of 65 Old 12-06-2014, 12:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Sellin it tomorrow . Just trying to decide on a replacement.

I also figured the placement was probably not helping and I was right I guess...now Im ready to go for a new one.

Last edited by savage8190; 12-06-2014 at 12:49 AM.
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