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Does anyone notice a delay in their Buttkicker?

8K views 19 replies 9 participants last post by  craig john 
#1 ·
I have a Buttkicker Advance (from the wireless kit) It's connected to the pad that it came with, and I have one of my couch legs sitting on the pad and the whole couch on Buttkicker isolators.

When my home theater puts out a long, drawn-out stream of bass, the shaking of the Buttkicker matches with the sound from the subwoofer (HSU VTF3 MK4) pretty well. But for quick hits of bass, I feel like I hear the bass before I feel the shake.

Is this a common issue? Do I have a phase problem or something?
 
#2 ·
It is possible that the wireless kit is introducing the delay. You can solve the problem by using a device like the minidsp 2x4. Add a delay for your sub before you run the Audyssey calibration with the minidsp in line. This way Audyssey thinks that your sub has a long delay and the minidsp gets the signal early. Keep the sub delay as is on the sub port as is but reduce it on the port going to the buttkicker. The exact amount of delay reduction will have to be through trial and error.
 
#4 · (Edited)
The minidsp 2x4 has two ports in and four ports out. It allows you to set individual delays on the each of the output ports (and the input ports if I remember correctly). So essentially you will be using the device instead of your Y splitter.

Here is how I think you should implement it:
1. You connect the subwoofer output to input port 1 and connect one of the outputs to the subwoofer and one to the buttkicker amp.
2. You add a delay to the subwoofer output then you run audyssey. Audyssey will think that your subwoofer has a long delay and adjust the delays to your speakers accordingly so that the all the sounds from the speakers and the subwoofer reach the listening position at the same time. This is done with the delay you introduced being taken into consideration.
3. Now that the mini dsp is getting the sub signal early, you can afford to introduce a shorter delay for your buttkicker than the one you added for the sub in step 1. This way you can sync both signals to each other.

Hope that helps.
 
#5 ·
While it's certainly possible the wireless signal is introducing a delay, I think it's also worth noting that the LFE content you're "hearing" output by the sub, may not be the same LFE content you're feeling with the BK. What I mean is, there is a tendency for certain movie soundtracks to mix LFE content (such as explosions, thunder/lightning strikes) in a way that the higher frequencies are heard first, followed by the lower frequencies. Since the BK's tactile output goes much lower than your typical (small-to-medium) commercial sub, you then get a feeling that you're experiencing a delay, because you're feeling effects generated by the BK in the low teens/single digits that isn't being replicated by the subwoofer.

In my case, I have my wireless BK connected to the subwoofer output of my Oppo, so I can set its level/distance independently of the AVR.
 
#6 ·
ahmedreda, great job on post #4 .

Op, if I was you I'd give ahmedreda's suggestion a try. I have a minidsp in my system along with 3 shakers, 2 inuke amps, and 4 18's. It was a bit of a pain to get the delay's dialed in correctly, and there's no perfert way to do it. It just takes bit of tweak/check/tweak/check....until you get to a point where you are happy.
 
#7 ·
FYI I went ahead and asked: here's their reply (FYI whenever I've asked them something via e-mail, they've always gotten back to me with an informative reply):

The wireless system has an approximately 9ms delay, for 99.9% of users this is unnoticeable.

Enjoy your wireless ButtKicker Kit!

Regards,

Andrew Luden
Business Development / Marketing
The Guitammer Company
 
#8 ·
You have received some excellent advise here already.

Put me in the .1% as a 9ms delay would be easily noticeable by me. Getting the bass and feel time aligned makes a much more seemless integration and is well worth the effort IMO.

For purposes of time alignment I increase the crossover and level of the shaker and subwoofer. I then put on some music with good bass rhythm such as a good kick drum. I then use the dsp in the inukedsp to time align the sound with the feel. Then drop the crossover and levels back to what works best. Trying it properly aligned and adding 9ms of delay and the presentation falls apart in my testing. :)
 
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#10 ·
The wireless system has an approximately 9ms delay, for 99.9% of users this is unnoticeable.

Enjoy your wireless ButtKicker Kit!

Regards,

Andrew Luden
Business Development / Marketing
The Guitammer Company
They are clueless. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people complain that tactile transducers are gimmicky and distracting. The REASON the seem gimmicky and distracting is because they are mistimed with the bass. Getting the shaking timed exactly with the sound is CRITICAL to their integration. If you hear the sound and then feel the shaking afterwards, or worse, you feel the shaking and then hear the sound afterwards, the effect of the of the shakers will feel wrong, i.e., "gimmicky and distracting."

Do whatever you need to do to time-align the shakers with the sound. I do something different than what is described in in the posts in this thread, but the suggestions you've receive will work.

Craig
 
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#11 ·
Those are some peoples opinion. Normally purists that seem to think if a sub by itself can't shake your couch,you don't have a big enough sub. It really is ridiculous! I have an butt kicker advance,it is nothing short of awesome! Its far from a gimmick.. Is 3D a gimmick? Is Atmos a gimmick? A butt kicker has a rightful place in the home theater. Its no different than the guy telling you ,listening to 2 channel music with a sub is blasphemy. Don't listen to these guys! I don't notice any delay with mine. How far away is your BK receiver from the transducer? Anyone that has watched a movie at my house has went nuts over the buttkicker. Don't listen to these trolls..
 
#12 · (Edited)
If I use the second sub out connection on my avr, do I need to do anything as far as delay goes? Also, will I need to re-run audyssey after connecting the buttkicers to the avr?
 
#13 ·
If I use the second sub out connection on my avr, do I need to do anything as far as delay goes?
This will depend on several factors:
1. How far away your subwoofer is from your seating,
2. What amp you use to drive the Buttkicker,
3. How your Buttkicker is connected to the amp,
3. What amp your subwoofer uses.

All of these factors can add some latency, (delay), to the signal. If your sub is nearfield, (very close to the seating), there will be a little "propagation delay," (the time it takes the soundwaves to propagate across the space to reach your ears. However, if the sub is across the room from you, there'll be approximately 1 ms of propagation delay for every foot of distance the sub is away from you. If it's 12' away, there'll be about 12 ms of delay from the time the subproduces the sound wave until you hear it. If the Buttkicker is not delayed by the same amount, you'll feel the shaking before you hear the bass. 12 ms of mistiming between the shakers and the bass sound would definitely be noticeable. However, if you're using the Wireless kit it will delay the Buttkicker by 9 ms. If the amp driving the Buttkicker has a little latency in it, it could delay the signal another 3 ms, and then they would be perfectly timed. However, if the subwoofer amp has a little latency in it, it will delay the subwoofer a little bit, and you'll be slightly mis-timed again.

Also, will I need to re-run audyssey after connecting the buttkicers to the avr?
If you just have one subwoofer, then Audyssey doesn't apply Room Correction to the 2nd subwoofer output, so you don't need to re-run Audyssey. You can just plug your shaker into Sub2 and you're good to go. However, if you have 2 or more subs, and you previously were using both subwoofer outputs to run the subs, then Audyssey RC would be applied to both outputs. Transducers don't benefit from RC, so you don't want it applied to the transducers. Therefore, you would hook all subwoofers up to the Sub1 output, then re-run Audyssey with the transducers off, and then turn the transducers on again after running Audyssey.

You can also use the Sub2 Distance control in your receiver to adjust the relative delays for the transducers. Just put on some bass-heavy music and play around with the Sub2 Distance setting. You'll be able to tell when the settings are getting further off, and when they're getting better. When they''re "just right" the bass will hit at the exact same time as the shaking, and it will feel like the shaking is a natural part of the sound.

Craig
 
#14 ·
I am having difficulty believing that 9ms of delay in the wireless link is noticeable. I have not actually installed/felt shaker, but still, 9ms of delay in the audio is barely enough to notice for lip sync, at least for me.

That is only ~1/10 of a second. Maybe some people can notice it but I doubt that I would.

I would suspect that the resonances in the chair frame and suspension are also causing some delay as they build up to full amplitude. Maybe I am misunderstanding the application of a shaker but from pictures I see online it seems to me that shakers are usually tied directly to the seating springs.

Adding delay to the audio/video is going to play havoc with gaming... so for gaming it is probably better to run wire to avoid adding any delay.

Just my $0.02. I may be wrong. Not expert.
 
#15 ·
I am having difficulty believing that 9ms of delay in the wireless link is noticeable. I have not actually installed/felt shaker, but still, 9ms of delay in the audio is barely enough to notice for lip sync, at least for me.

That is only ~1/10 of a second. Maybe some people can notice it but I doubt that I would.
When you feel shaking BEFORE you hear sound, it is very unnatural, even if the shaking only starts a few milliseconds before you hear the sound.

I would suspect that the resonances in the chair frame and suspension are also causing some delay as they build up to full amplitude. Maybe I am misunderstanding the application of a shaker but from pictures I see online it seems to me that shakers are usually tied directly to the seating springs.
If the chairs are well made, they are stiff enough that shaking them at any point in their construction is immediately transmitted throughout the chair. There is no delay caused by the chair frame. My Crowson Tactile Motion Activators are mounted beneath the frames of the chairs and they lift an lower the chairs. This is IMMEDIATE.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...-crowson-tactile-motion-actuators-thread.html

Adding delay to the audio/video is going to play havoc with gaming... so for gaming it is probably better to run wire to avoid adding any delay.
The way I described doing it above, you're increasing or decreasing the delay to the transducers, not to the sound or the video. It won't have any impact on gaming.

Just my $0.02. I may be wrong. Not expert.
I've had tactile transducers in my system for over a decade. I've configured them every way possible. I recently had a friend over who has stated that he hates transducers. This is what he had to say after experiencing them in my system:
And this is the first time I have ever experienced a seat acutator system that actually increased the listening experience instead of taking me out of it.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh...395-craig-john-s-theater-13.html#post30916745

As with everything else in this hobby, it's all about proper setup.

Craig
 
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