Klipsch r12sw vs klipsch sub 12hg vs dayton 1500 vs bic pl200 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 43 Old 01-23-2015, 03:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Klipsch r12sw vs klipsch sub 12hg vs dayton 1500 vs bic pl200

I pulled the trigger on the klipsch r12sw because I was able to get it for $314 brand new, but I want to know if I got a good deal and how it compares to the ones in the title, or whether there was a significantly better option for the price I paid.
Thanks for your help.
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post #2 of 43 Old 01-27-2015, 12:36 AM - Thread Starter
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also does the quality of the subwoofer cable really matter? Im still using the cable that came with my Onkyo HTIB 5 years ago, lol.
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post #3 of 43 Old 01-27-2015, 09:19 PM
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in my opinion i think thats a good deal klipsch make good subwoofers. for the subwoofer cable quality if you upgrade from the one that come with the system(the cable that come with those system tend to be cheap and not shielded)you would get a smoother sound. i get most of my cable from monoprice.com they make good cable for the price
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post #4 of 43 Old 01-27-2015, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by blazer10 View Post
in my opinion i think thats a good deal klipsch make good subwoofers. for the subwoofer cable quality if you upgrade from the one that come with the system(the cable that come with those system tend to be cheap and not shielded)you would get a smoother sound. i get most of my cable from monoprice.com they make good cable for the price
How would you describe smoother sound? Would that be a significant difference?
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post #5 of 43 Old 01-28-2015, 10:18 AM
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this thread have what you are looking for subwoofer cable really make a difference in performance?

Last edited by blazer10; 02-06-2015 at 05:59 PM.
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post #6 of 43 Old 01-28-2015, 10:30 AM
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Can't speak for the other two brands, but I own the Sub12. I've been happy with it's performance. For $200 buy two if you can. After 6 years of running one, I added the sub 12hg about two weeks ago. No difference in the two models except the newer model, HG, has high gloss on the front. Now comparing the SUB12hg vs the r12sw. I've never heard the r12sw, but the specs don't look as good as the Sub 12hg. The Sub 12hg is rated at 100 more watts RMS and weighs about 8 pounds more.

Last edited by cbatc; 01-28-2015 at 10:31 AM. Reason: typo
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post #7 of 43 Old 01-28-2015, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cbatc View Post
Can't speak for the other two brands, but I own the Sub12. I've been happy with it's performance. For $200 buy two if you can. After 6 years of running one, I added the sub 12hg about two weeks ago. No difference in the two models except the newer model, HG, has high gloss on the front. Now comparing the SUB12hg vs the r12sw. I've never heard the r12sw, but the specs don't look as good as the Sub 12hg. The Sub 12hg is rated at 100 more watts RMS and weighs about 8 pounds more.
I originally wanted the 12 hg, but I read that the 12sw pairs better with rf 42 s because they are both reference series, don't really know if that matters all that much or not. I was actually wondering if I should have gotten the r112sw instead of the r12ww for like 150 more, but the room in my house isn't that big and I am coming from an old htib subwoofer lol
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post #8 of 43 Old 01-28-2015, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cbatc View Post
Can't speak for the other two brands, but I own the Sub12. I've been happy with it's performance. For $200 buy two if you can. After 6 years of running one, I added the sub 12hg about two weeks ago. No difference in the two models except the newer model, HG, has high gloss on the front. Now comparing the SUB12hg vs the r12sw. I've never heard the r12sw, but the specs don't look as good as the Sub 12hg. The Sub 12hg is rated at 100 more watts RMS and weighs about 8 pounds more.
But then, why does the r12sw cost more?
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post #9 of 43 Old 01-28-2015, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by darkleafar View Post
But then, why does the r12sw cost more?
I'm not sure all the models that have come out recently, but isn't the r12sw the same one that goes on sale at Frys every other month for $199?


http://slickdeals.net/f/7590952-back...store-only?v=1

Last edited by cbatc; 01-28-2015 at 08:05 PM. Reason: typo
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post #10 of 43 Old 01-28-2015, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cbatc View Post
I'm not sure all the models that have come out recently, but isn't the r12sw the same one that goes on sale at Frys every other month for $199?


http://slickdeals.net/f/7590952-back...store-only?v=1
I think you just talked me into returning this
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post #11 of 43 Old 01-28-2015, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Damm it now I'm questioning my entire purchase, lol. I know this isn't the right forum but while I'm at it what's better the rf 42 ii or the infinity primus 363? Also I bought the r12sw for 314, so if the sub 12 hg is better and 80 dollars less... well.. or how do both of these compare to the r112sw? Damm it I'm all uncertain now lol
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post #12 of 43 Old 01-29-2015, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
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So basically my thought process has come to this: would you guys say it's worth returning the r12sw to buy the better speced sub 12hg for 80 dollars less? Is this worth time and effort?
Or alternatively, how would the r112sw compare to the sub 12 hg? Would the r12sw be worth the extra money?
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post #13 of 43 Old 01-29-2015, 12:20 AM
 
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Just what are the specs you're basing your comparison with?
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post #14 of 43 Old 01-29-2015, 12:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbatc View Post
Can't speak for the other two brands, but I own the Sub12. I've been happy with it's performance. For $200 buy two if you can. After 6 years of running one, I added the sub 12hg about two weeks ago. No difference in the two models except the newer model, HG, has high gloss on the front. Now comparing the SUB12hg vs the r12sw. I've never heard the r12sw, but the specs don't look as good as the Sub 12hg. The Sub 12hg is rated at 100 more watts RMS and weighs about 8 pounds more.
This, and r12sw has a response of 29Hz-120Hz and the sub12hg is 24Hz-120Hz. Like I said, I looked thisbup but I don't have enough understanding of the specs to know whether it makes a difference
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post #15 of 43 Old 01-29-2015, 01:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by darkleafar View Post
This, and r12sw has a response of 29Hz-120Hz and the sub12hg is 24Hz-120Hz. Like I said, I looked thisbup but I don't have enough understanding of the specs to know whether it makes a difference
That's all Klipsch has about these subs? I didn't look myself...

Since there's no accompanying definition the numbers don't mean a lot (i.e. as to what variance over that range, expressed in +/- 3dB preferably, but often when this definition is not present the lower end could easily be the -10dB point instead). The wattage is not so meaningful without knowing the impedance or sensitivity of the speaker (or the spec behind the 100 watt number for that matter). If equal the sub12hg digs a bit deeper but who knows at what spl? The only Klipsch sub listed at data-bass.com is the SW-311 so not much help there.
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post #16 of 43 Old 01-29-2015, 02:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
That's all Klipsch has about these subs? I didn't look myself...

Since there's no accompanying definition the numbers don't mean a lot (i.e. as to what variance over that range, expressed in +/- 3dB preferably, but often when this definition is not present the lower end could easily be the -10dB point instead). The wattage is not so meaningful without knowing the impedance or sensitivity of the speaker (or the spec behind the 100 watt number for that matter). If equal the sub12hg digs a bit deeper but who knows at what spl? The only Klipsch sub listed at data-bass.com is the SW-311 so not much help there.
R12sw specs I found (lowest price currently available $314) :
FREQUENCY RESPONSE:29Hz-120Hz +/-3dB
MAXIMUM ACOUSTIC OUTPUT:116dB
AMPLIFIER:All digital
AMPLIFIER POWER:200W / 400W
DRIVE COMPONENTS:12" (30.5 cm) high excursion, IMG, front-firing woofer
ENCLOSURE MATERIAL:MDF
ENCLOSURE TYPE:Bass Reflex
INPUTS:Line level/LFE RCA jacks
HEIGHT:16" / 40.64 cm (16.5" with feet)
WIDTH:14" / 35.56 cm
DEPTH:18.5" / 47 cm (19.2" with grille)
WEIGHT:33 lbs (15 kg)
FINISH:Brushed Black Polymer Veneer
FEATURES:Volume, Lowpass, Phase, Auto Power
PHASE:Switchable 0-180 degrees
BUILT FROM:2014

Sub12hg specs (lowest price currently available $199):
FREQUENCY RESPONSE:24-120Hz +/-3dB
MAXIMUM ACOUSTIC OUTPUT:117dB @ 30Hz 1/8 space, 1m
AMPLIFIER:BASH(r) digital hybrid
AMPLIFIER POWER:FTC Rated Power: 300 watts continuous @ 1% THD, Dynamic Power: 650 watts
DRIVE COMPONENTS:12" (30.5cm) fiber-composite cone, down-firing woofer
ENCLOSURE TYPE:Bass-reflex via rear-firing port
INPUTS:L/R line-level RCA jacks, L/R high level speaker binding posts
OUTPUTS:L/R High level speaker binding posts (passthru)
HEIGHT:18 (45.7cm) H
WIDTH:15 (38.1cm) W
DEPTH:19.9 (50.5cm) D
WEIGHT:40 lbs. (18.2kg)
FINISHES:Black vinyl
FEATURES:Volume, Lowpass, Phase, Auto Power
PHASE:Switchable 0-180 degrees
VOLTAGE:110/120 VAC 60Hz
EXPORT VOLTAGE:220 VAC 50/60Hz
BUILT FROM:2005

r112sw specs (lowest price currently available $454):
FREQUENCY RESPONSE:24Hz-125Hz +/-3dB
MAXIMUM ACOUSTIC OUTPUT:118dB
AMPLIFIER:All digital
AMPLIFIER POWER:300W / 600W
DRIVE COMPONENTS:12" (30.5 cm) long-throw copper spun cerametallic, front-firing woofer
ENCLOSURE MATERIAL:MDF
ENCLOSURE TYPE:Bass Reflex
INPUTS:L/R line-level/LFE RCA jacks, Wireless WA-2 Port
HEIGHT:17.38" / 41.4 cm
WIDTH:15.5" / 39.37 cm
DEPTH:18.25" / 46.36 cm
WEIGHT:48.75 lbs / 22.1 kg
FINISH:Brushed Black Polymer Veneer
FEATURES:Gain, Lowpass, Phase, Auto Power
PHASE:Switchable 0-180 degrees
BUILT FROM:2014

I'd appreciate it if you can kinda break this from me and recommend/advise accordingly
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post #17 of 43 Old 01-29-2015, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by darkleafar View Post
Damm it now I'm questioning my entire purchase, lol. I know this isn't the right forum but while I'm at it what's better the rf 42 ii or the infinity primus 363?

FWIW I think the Andrew Jones Pioneer FS52s are better than either, and there's quite a lot of reviews/posts of others who think so too.
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post #18 of 43 Old 01-29-2015, 07:54 AM
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I own two klipsch subs and UNDERWHELMING is how I would describe the qualities. I have the Rw12D 12 inch and the synergy 10 inch. The Synegy is not in use at all and the RW12D is moved to a TV only setting...

Now, i haven't heard the two subs you are listing, so maybe those are better!

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and EMP e5Bi surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: Philharmonics- BMR in a 2.0 system, music only
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post #19 of 43 Old 01-29-2015, 08:44 AM
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I think you just talked me into returning this
Sorry. That wasn't my intent. The biggest question is how does it sound to you? Do you like like the way your r12sw sounds? Your sign says you're in Houston. Go to Fry's and get them to pricematch Amazon on the sub 12. I've already checked for you it looks like they have inventory at all three stores. Do your own test and see which you like better. Specs are good to know, but go with your ear.

http://www.frys.com/product/7580936?...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG
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Specs are +/- 3dB for each and the 12HG does dig a bit deeper (which you might even have a hard time side by side telling the difference on but that would be the best way to determine audible differences of course). On paper the 12HG does look to be the better buy for the spec info provided. I have an RW12 in my bedroom and for $300 at the time (retail was listed anywhere from 699 to 899 depending when and what you read) I have no issues with the sub, and its spec is similar to the 12HG IIRC. Can you pickup the 12HG and then compare then decide which to keep?

Personally I'd say the subs in this area are going to be okay, but if you are serious about having a good sub, then save up some more and aim more for the $500-800 entry level subs from the likes of SVS, Power Sound, Reaction Audio, Outlaw, etc. Klipsch and the other big box speaker branded subs generally aren't in the same league. OTOH multiple subs have benefits, too, and two of the 12HG for $400 compared to slightly over $300 for the one you got sounds pretty good, too. Good luck with your decision.
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post #21 of 43 Old 01-29-2015, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I sincerely appreciate all the advise so far. I still haven't made a decision, but in the meantime I wanna understand some things. I have the rf 42 ii s, what would be the best crossover to set my sub at with those speakers? I used Audyssey multi eq XT from my onkyo be 709 to calibrate everything, and currently have crossover set to 80. Haven't played with the 0 to 180 switch yet.
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post #22 of 43 Old 01-29-2015, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Specs are +/- 3dB for each and the 12HG does dig a bit deeper (which you might even have a hard time side by side telling the difference on but that would be the best way to determine audible differences of course). On paper the 12HG does look to be the better buy for the spec info provided. I have an RW12 in my bedroom and for $300 at the time (retail was listed anywhere from 699 to 899 depending when and what you read) I have no issues with the sub, and its spec is similar to the 12HG IIRC. Can you pickup the 12HG and then compare then decide which to keep?

Personally I'd say the subs in this area are going to be okay, but if you are serious about having a good sub, then save up some more and aim more for the $500-800 entry level subs from the likes of SVS, Power Sound, Reaction Audio, Outlaw, etc. Klipsch and the other big box speaker branded subs generally aren't in the same league. OTOH multiple subs have benefits, too, and two of the 12HG for $400 compared to slightly over $300 for the one you got sounds pretty good, too. Good luck with your decision.
And what about the r112sw vs the sub12hg? Also, are all of these ported or sealed?
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post #23 of 43 Old 01-29-2015, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright I was reading this http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817
And now I'm more confused. It is being recommended that I set my low pass filter on the receiver to 120 in both the receiver and the back of the subwoofer, but the Audyssey calibration set my front speakers to 60Hz (high pass filter?) , but according to the article you should avoid your speakers and your subwoofer reproducing the same ranges, to avoid phase cancellation or whatever...so then, does that mean I should set my front speakers ( rf 42 ii) to 120 even though they are capable of dipping all the way to 59hz, and set my subwoofer to 120, and then rerun the calibration?
They also talk about avoiding audio holes depending on whether your receivers lfe settings affect the other 5 to 7 speakers. How do I know if they do or not?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkleafar View Post
Alright I was reading this http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817
And now I'm more confused. It is being recommended that I set my low pass filter on the receiver to 120 in both the receiver and the back of the subwoofer, but the Audyssey calibration set my front speakers to 60Hz (high pass filter?) , but according to the article you should avoid your speakers and your subwoofer reproducing the same ranges, to avoid phase cancellation or whatever...so then, does that mean I should set my front speakers ( rf 42 ii) to 120 even though they are capable of dipping all the way to 59hz, and set my subwoofer to 120, and then rerun the calibration?
They also talk about avoiding audio holes depending on whether your receivers lfe settings affect the other 5 to 7 speakers. How do I know if they do or not?
Don't get caught up in the all hype. Reading these forums can take away from you enjoying your gear. From what I've learned you should set all your speakers to small and your crossover to 80hz at the receiver. With your sub you wanna setup you crossover to the max. This allows your receiver to do all the bass management. Someone else please chime in if I'm telling this guy wrong. And then you can tweak from there to what sounds best for you.
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Originally Posted by darkleafar View Post
Alright I was reading this http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817
And now I'm more confused. It is being recommended that I set my low pass filter on the receiver to 120 in both the receiver and the back of the subwoofer, but the Audyssey calibration set my front speakers to 60Hz (high pass filter?) , but according to the article you should avoid your speakers and your subwoofer reproducing the same ranges, to avoid phase cancellation or whatever...so then, does that mean I should set my front speakers ( rf 42 ii) to 120 even though they are capable of dipping all the way to 59hz, and set my subwoofer to 120, and then rerun the calibration?
They also talk about avoiding audio holes depending on whether your receivers lfe settings affect the other 5 to 7 speakers. How do I know if they do or not?
The LPF of LFE is not a crossover. Set the LPF of LFE to 120 as that is the general limit of content in the LFE (.1) channel. Your crossovers from other speakers to the sub are not affected by this setting, that is handled by the speaker crossover settings. Generally you want to exclude the subwoofer's own "crossover" setting by using the LFE input on the sub or setting the dial to maximum value, but OTOH you sometimes might want to add that filter.
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post #26 of 43 Old 01-29-2015, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cbatc View Post
Don't get caught up in the all hype. Reading these forums can take away from you enjoying your gear. From what I've learned you should set all your speakers to small and your crossover to 80hz at the receiver. With your sub you wanna setup you crossover to the max. This allows your receiver to do all the bass management. Someone else please chime in if I'm telling this guy wrong. And then you can tweak from there to what sounds best for you.
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The LPF of LFE is not a crossover. Set the LPF of LFE to 120 as that is the general limit of content in the LFE (.1) channel. Your crossovers from other speakers to the sub are not affected by this setting, that is handled by the speaker crossover settings. Generally you want to exclude the subwoofer's own "crossover" setting by using the LFE input on the sub or setting the dial to maximum value, but OTOH you sometimes might want to add that filter.
My rf42 ii are set to small, but they are set at 60 hz right now. What I'm trying to understand is , am i supposed to set it so that they won't overlap? In other words, don't allow the speakers to go below 120hz, and don't allow the subwoofer to go above 120hz? Currently I turned the subwoofer knob all the way up, the LFE is set to 100 on the receiver (Audyssey did that automatically ) and the speakers are set to 60hz
Also, the dial on no my subwoofer is a bit different. The lowest setting is 40, the knob hits 120 at around 75% turned, and turned all they way up it says "LFE", so what I should I set it to?
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post #27 of 43 Old 01-30-2015, 09:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by darkleafar View Post
I sincerely appreciate all the advise so far. I still haven't made a decision, but in the meantime I wanna understand some things. I have the rf 42 ii s, what would be the best crossover to set my sub at with those speakers? I used Audyssey multi eq XT from my onkyo be 709 to calibrate everything, and currently have crossover set to 80. Haven't played with the 0 to 180 switch yet.
I'm not familiar with your speakers but 80 is a good starting point. The phase adjustment of 0/180 ? Use the setting where the bass sounds stronger.

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Originally Posted by darkleafar View Post
And what about the r112sw vs the sub12hg? Also, are all of these ported or sealed?
Bass reflex is ported. The r112sw seems to have a slightly better output (but who knows the details behind their output number?) and appears to be wireless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkleafar View Post
Alright I was reading this http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817
And now I'm more confused. It is being recommended that I set my low pass filter on the receiver to 120 in both the receiver and the back of the subwoofer, but the Audyssey calibration set my front speakers to 60Hz (high pass filter?) , but according to the article you should avoid your speakers and your subwoofer reproducing the same ranges, to avoid phase cancellation or whatever...so then, does that mean I should set my front speakers ( rf 42 ii) to 120 even though they are capable of dipping all the way to 59hz, and set my subwoofer to 120, and then rerun the calibration?
They also talk about avoiding audio holes depending on whether your receivers lfe settings affect the other 5 to 7 speakers. How do I know if they do or not?
Don't have time to read your link. Again, LPF of LFE is one thing (at least this is what I think you're referring to, as my Onkyo has such, and many feel it should never even been included in the avr's menu since it just seems to confuse people), a crossover is another. Generally you don't want both the avr and sub's filters applied but in some circumstances it might be useful; start off with the sub's setting maximized (some subs with an LFE input automatically do this, some you just need to turn the dial to max). If your speakers' 59 hz is the -3dB measurement I'd cross at 80. There's only one crossover setting in your avr, that from your speakers to the sub and are generally just called speaker crossovers (to the sub, not a sub crossover). The LFE setting is simply a filter for the LFE channel only (and the general max content of the LFE channel is 120hz, so just set it there to get all the LFE channel has to offer).
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post #28 of 43 Old 01-30-2015, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
I'm not familiar with your speakers but 80 is a good starting point. The phase adjustment of 0/180 ? Use the setting where the bass sounds stronger.



Bass reflex is ported. The r112sw seems to have a slightly better output (but who knows the details behind their output number?) and appears to be wireless.



Don't have time to read your link. Again, LPF of LFE is one thing (at least this is what I think you're referring to, as my Onkyo has such, and many feel it should never even been included in the avr's menu since it just seems to confuse people), a crossover is another. Generally you don't want both the avr and sub's filters applied but in some circumstances it might be useful; start off with the sub's setting maximized (some subs with an LFE input automatically do this, some you just need to turn the dial to max). If your speakers' 59 hz is the -3dB measurement I'd cross at 80. There's only one crossover setting in your avr, that from your speakers to the sub and are generally just called speaker crossovers (to the sub, not a sub crossover). The LFE setting is simply a filter for the LFE channel only (and the general max content of the LFE channel is 120hz, so just set it there to get all the LFE channel has to offer).
That clears up things! So basically there isn't separate crossovers for subwoofer and speakers. The speaker crossover setting determines where the speaker will start and where the subwoofer will stop, correct?
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post #29 of 43 Old 01-30-2015, 10:57 AM
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I haven't heard the others, but I have the PL-200. Use it in a 19'x18' room with vaulted ceilings. It can be had for $289 here if you make an offer - http://www.acousticsounddesign.com/c...pid=1555&sc=28

I have been highly impressed with it after 14 months of ownership. I think most owners of it have been very please for a sub $300 woofer.
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post #30 of 43 Old 01-30-2015, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you everyone . I have decided to keep what I got, since I do like the sound quite a bit
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