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post #1 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Need Subwoofer - >$600, >15" cube, Metal Grill, Sealed, +Lots of Awesomeness~

Budget is $600 or less.

Box size is a cube under 15" give or take.

Room has three walls and where the fourth should be it opens up into the rest of the basement. Each wall of the three is 15', the entire basement is 850sqft, and the ceilings are about 8'.

Primary uses will be movies, tv, and spotify.

As for appearance, I absolutely must have 1) a metal grill (I don't mind buying a 3-party metal grill if that exists and it's fit to size already - just show me links please); and 2) it must be sealed and not ported because my wife wants it against the wall.

Also, I don't know if it matters, but I am prohibited from placing it in front of the couch and I'm reduced to placing it behind the couch. Maybe I can get some leeway down the road but that's the bed I'm laying in at the moment. I don't know if that makes a difference in sub selection.

Timeframe is before Feb. 14th.


------------------------

The only option I can find meeting these requirements is the SB-2000 which is $100 over my budget. If that's my only option then I'll go for it but I would prefer recommendations to at least be comparable if possible. The main sticking point I've been having is the stupid metal grill. I have young kids and I know that if I didn't have a metal grill it would be ruined within a week. So help a fellow dad out!

P.S. I included some pictures. The first is the far-away shot from the rest of the basement, and the last two show the main TV area. The dusty blue couches will be replaced with a sectional and the sub will at least start back behind it.
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post #2 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 09:50 AM
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You could get a down firing sub.
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post #3 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 10:52 AM
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the entire basement is 850sqft, and the ceilings are about 8'.
6800 cu. ft., a very large space for a subwoofer to pressurize.

Quote:
Also, I don't know if it matters, but I am prohibited from placing it in front of the couch and I'm reduced to placing it behind the couch.
The number one most important thing in getting the most from your subwoofer is placement, so yes, it matters. That being said, behind the couch may just be the best placement...but you won't know until you get the sub in the room and at least do a sub crawl.

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it must be sealed and not ported because my wife wants it against the wall.
You can put a ported sub up against a wall, just face the port out.

Quote:
The only option I can find meeting these requirements is the SB-2000
Doesn't stand a chance in hell in a room that size.

You need to tell us what you are expecting from a sub and what volume levels you normally listen at. What are your other speakers?
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post #4 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 11:12 AM
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yeah, you space is gigantic for filling with deep bass. At 5 times your budget it'd be difficult using commercial, ported, subs (and you'd need more than one of em).



Probably the best $600 or less commercial sub is the Rythmik LV12R...no metal grill though...and it's gonna be swallowed by the huge space you're putting it in.

Any sealed sub is gonna be terrible in that big a space.


Hell, a pair of PB2000s, which DO have metal grilles, but more than double your budget, will still be underwhelming in a space that size.
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post #5 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
6800 cu. ft., a very large space for a subwoofer to pressurize.
So even if the TV area is only 15x15, we have to take into account the entire space?

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You can put a ported sub up against a wall, just face the port out.
Well, show me a ported sub with metal grills over the ports then I'll bite. Otherwise, it's just another place for my kids to stuff things...

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Doesn't stand a chance in hell in a room that size.
You need to tell us what you are expecting from a sub and what volume levels you normally listen at. What are your other speakers?
I would love some chest thumping bass when I watch certain blu-ray movies. But I will turn it down a bit when I listen to Spotify and don't intend to have a rave at my house

Presently, I scored some good deals over the holidays. I picked up two NHT Super One's, a Super Center, and four NXG Pro 4.1 Satellite Speaker. I'm using a Denon X3000 to power them.

I'm also open to the idea of using two subs if that's necessary. On one hand, maybe since I'm only listenting to blu-rays I can get away with two less expensive subs that would not work "best" for CDs and/or vinyls? On the other hand, if two cheap subs (or one powerful one for my room size) cannot be found, then just tell me what I need to buy to achieve my goal and I can buy it piecemeal.
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post #6 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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yeah, you space is gigantic for filling with deep bass. At 5 times your budget it'd be difficult using commercial, ported, subs (and you'd need more than one of em).

Probably the best $600 or less commercial sub is the Rythmik LV12R...no metal grill though...and it's gonna be swallowed by the huge space you're putting it in.

Any sealed sub is gonna be terrible in that big a space.

Hell, a pair of PB2000s, which DO have metal grilles, but more than double your budget, will still be underwhelming in a space that size.
So are you saying that it's just entirely worthless to even buy a sub then? I'm inexperienced and don't understand the difference between hearing the bass and being swallowed up. Would I still hear the bass but I just wouldn't feel my heart pounded with a hammer?

If I still should buy a sub, and don't want to spend $5,000 to fill my space with deep bass, what factors should I be looking at? Would frequency response even matter then? Should I just focus on as many watts as I can get?

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post #7 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 11:30 AM
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You do have a lot of restrictions, so let's go over them.

1. $600. You have an extreme room size (over 5,000 cu. ft.). I don't know any sub that could adequately fill that space for that money, unless you consider D.I.Y. Subs that are $600 are usually placed in rooms under 2,500 cu. ft. with varying degrees of sonic nirvana. A room your size usually needs one very powerful and large subwoofer or two good sized subwoofers.
2. 15-inch cube. See no. 1. Getting a small subwoofer is fine for small rooms. Not so fine with extreme rooms like yours. You might consider a cylinder sub (yes, they are rear ported).
3. Metal grille. Little ones can always pose a problem, but the metal grille on the SVS is curved outward, leaving plenty of space for little fingers. My SB13's grille curves outward 3 inches.
4. Sealed because it must be against the wall. Subs cannot be flush against the wall because there are power and signal connections, along with amplifier controls that one must get to. I understand that you don't want the little one putting toys in a port, but many subs are rear ported, making it difficult for the little ones to use the port as a toy storage warehouse. And you only need a few inches of space for the port to do its job (about the diameter of the port itself), which you'd need anyway for the amplifier connections.
5. Lots of awesomeness. That will NOT happen in a room of your volume at the price point you are looking for.
6. Lots of placement restrictions. Perhaps this might be your biggest problem. A subwoofer is placed where you get the best sound at the listening position, not because you are only allowed to place it here or there. Everyone that gets a sub must do a subwoofer crawl test to determine the best sonic location of the subwoofer. What good is any subwoofer if you place it in a spot where you'll have no bass at the listening position, or the bass is muddy or bloated?

Personally, I think you need to do some serious rethinking here.
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post #8 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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You do have a lot of restrictions, so let's go over them.

1. $600. You have an extreme room size (over 5,000 cu. ft.). I don't know any sub that could adequately fill that space for that money, unless you consider D.I.Y. Subs that are $600 are usually placed in rooms under 2,500 cu. ft. with varying degrees of sonic nirvana. A room your size usually needs one very powerful and large subwoofer or two good sized subwoofers.
2. 15-inch cube. See no. 1. Getting a small subwoofer is fine for small rooms. Not so fine with extreme rooms like yours. You might consider a cylinder sub (yes, they are rear ported).
3. Metal grille. Little ones can always pose a problem, but the metal grille on the SVS is curved outward, leaving plenty of space for little fingers. My SB13's grille curves outward 3 inches.
4. Sealed because it must be against the wall. Subs cannot be flush against the wall because there are power and signal connections, along with amplifier controls that one must get to. I understand that you don't want the little one putting toys in a port, but many subs are rear ported, making it difficult for the little ones to use the port as a toy storage warehouse. And you only need a few inches of space for the port to do its job (about the diameter of the port itself), which you'd need anyway for the amplifier connections.
5. Lots of awesomeness. That will NOT happen in a room of your volume at the price point you are looking for.
6. Lots of placement restrictions. Perhaps this might be your biggest problem. A subwoofer is placed where you get the best sound at the listening position, not because you are only allowed to place it here or there. Everyone that gets a sub must do a subwoofer crawl test to determine the best sonic location of the subwoofer. What good is any subwoofer if you place it in a spot where you'll have no bass at the listening position, or the bass is muddy or bloated?

Personally, I think you need to do some serious rethinking here.
Okay, let's change some things...

1. ~6,000 cubic feet.
2. I want worthwhile bass for my blu-ray movies.
3. Assume I can place it anywhere.
4. Regarding ports and grills, let's assume I can deal with an open port but not fabric face unless of course it's faced down. I do not see that as a popular option, but if you can make it work than that avoids the metal grill. Also, let's not forget I can deal with a third party metal grill if someone can make a recommendation in that direction.
5. Regarding price, just show me the cheapest solution to get the sound I desire while meeting the above (let's be realistic though, I don't want to exceed $2,000 but I also don't want to say I have a budget of $2,000 because I'll get $2,000 recommendations; so let's just leave it at finding the cheapest solution).

P.S. I have no problem going to my wife and saying "Honey, my hands are tied as far as placement goes. I told them you wanted it behind the couch but they just wouldn't allow it. You can talk to them if you want, but there is really nothing I can do..."
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post #9 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 11:50 AM
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dsrussel gives good advice. I just wanted to address this one comment:

Quote:
On one hand, maybe since I'm only listenting to blu-rays I can get away with two less expensive subs that would not work "best" for CDs and/or vinyls?
Blu-rays are way more demanding in the bass department than CDs/vinyl. You're not going to find much sub 30hz content in music, but you'll find gobs of it in most modern action flicks.

If you had a music only system you wouldn't need nearly as much subwoofer.

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post #10 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 11:54 AM
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I don't want to exceed $2,000 but I also don't want to say I have a budget of $2,000 because I'll get $2,000 recommendations; so let's just leave it at finding the cheapest solution).
Like it or not, you are now going to get $2000 recommendations...some maybe slightly higher.

I'll start.

Dual PSA XV15se would be under budget ($1699) and would probably satisfy. Nothing to lose with the 30 day free in-home trial. Down-firing/rear port.
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post #11 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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dsrussel gives good advice. I just wanted to address this one comment:



Blu-rays are way more demanding in the bass department than CDs/vinyl. You're not going to find much sub 30hz content in music, but you'll find gobs of it in most modern action flicks.

If you had a music only system you wouldn't need nearly as much subwoofer.
What if the only blu-rays I watched were musicals? j/kin

Thanks for the recommendation. It is huge, but hey, at least it's a recommendation. Thanks.

Anyone else have some recommendations? (I feel like I'm on shark tank now)...
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post #12 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 12:15 PM
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I have a 6500 cu ft open family room and I had 2 of these. http://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/xs15se

You will not get the chest pounding bass, but you will get a nice deep bass sound that is very clean and tight and you can hit 105 dB with 2 of them. Which isn't reference but its loud. And its down firing. It wont play as loud as a ported at the port tune, but they will make things rattle in the house. For the money, they are a great buy and whatever you choose, I would strongly recommend getting 2 subs. The down firing are great for when you have small curious little ones roaming around. Which is why I showed these to you. And they aren't as big as some of these ported subs.

FWIW, I sent them back because I want the chest thumping punch. They do sound really good. But I can tell you right now you will have to spend a lot more than $2k to get the chest thump. Probably closer to around $5k+


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post #13 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 12:22 PM
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I would like to donate some shelves I have.

BTW, the basement looks nice!

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post #14 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I would like to donate some shelves I have.

BTW, the basement looks nice!
Thanks! I think we have our fill of shelves now. My huge fear is if we ever have to move, we'll need a cargo ship to carry everything!
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post #15 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 12:32 PM
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Another option that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet would be a DIY sub. Then you can build it anyway you like it to be. And it looks like you have a wood shop already.


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post #16 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Another option that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet would be a DIY sub. Then you can build it anyway you like it to be. And it looks like you have a wood shop already.
You're not talking about making a built-in but rather just making my own cube and buying the electrical and woofer separate? If so, let's say that I went that dual $899 route for $1899, how much would a DIY equivalent cost?
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post #17 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 12:42 PM
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Okay, let's change some things...

1. ~6,000 cubic feet.
2. I want worthwhile bass for my blu-ray movies.
3. Assume I can place it anywhere.
4. Regarding ports and grills, let's assume I can deal with an open port but not fabric face unless of course it's faced down. I do not see that as a popular option, but if you can make it work than that avoids the metal grill. Also, let's not forget I can deal with a third party metal grill if someone can make a recommendation in that direction.
5. Regarding price, just show me the cheapest solution to get the sound I desire while meeting the above (let's be realistic though, I don't want to exceed $2,000 but I also don't want to say I have a budget of $2,000 because I'll get $2,000 recommendations; so let's just leave it at finding the cheapest solution).

P.S. I have no problem going to my wife and saying "Honey, my hands are tied as far as placement goes. I told them you wanted it behind the couch but they just wouldn't allow it. You can talk to them if you want, but there is really nothing I can do..."
Actually, kiger, a near-field placement behind the couch may be a good solution. So tell your wife you will try your very best to put a sub there. You'd just have to do the subwoofer crawl to see if it is feasible. Many people in large rooms such as yours will try and opt for a near-field placement (behind the couch or beside the couch, using the sub as an end table), although cabling may become an issue. They want to feel those sound waves and near-field placement does a great job at doing just that. If the subwoofer crawl says you can place it there, you are in and will make the wife happy (always a good idea).

In a room of your size, people will most likely have multiple seating positions. That can be a large couch or sectional and perhaps an additional large recliner. It is impractical to think a single sub can cover that large area without nulls and peaks being present. That is where the second sub comes into play. A second sub (place properly) will help smooth out those room modes and allow better bass over a larger area.

As you are beginning to understand, subwoofers are freakish speakers. The reason is that they produce really long sound waves (around 56 feet at 20 Hz), which interacts within the room environment that can create dead spots (or nulls) or standing waves (peaks that often gather in corners) creating terrible bloated bass or no bass at all. But as long as you can get your seating area covered, you'll be a happy camper.

Alan's suggestion of the down firing PSA subs is a very good one. You may also consider a cylinder sub, which is also down-firing. They take up little space (a little over 16-inch diameter), but are tall (34" to 47" depending upon the model). Some people don't like them because they remind them of a cat scratching post . Several companies offer down-firing subs, but not many have 15-inch drivers like the PSA.

Custom-made grilles don't make a lot of sense. They would be expensive, and may not fit properly. Nothing is worse than having a grille vibrate. It will drive you completely batty. What you can do is ask the company how much an extra grille would cost, or ask them to throw in a second grille. I know when I accidentally kneed the grille on my PSA sub, I broke several prongs that seat the grille. I not only got new prongs and directions to replace them, I also received a brand new grille free of charge (including shipping), allowing me to use the broken grille as backup once I repaired it. Most I.D. companies will give you great service. A few go beyond that.

There are many great subwoofers from I.D. companies such as Hsu Research, Outlaw Audio, Power Sound Audio (PSA), Reaction Audio, Rythmik Audio and SVS. So peruse their websites, email them (many have a chat function on their website) or call them. One of the more exciting products that has come out is the Hsu VTF-2 Mk5 HP (front-firing with front ports … sorry). You can get two of these for around $1700 shipped. But as it stands right now, the PSA down-firing subs may be your cup of tea.

And yes, good subs from these companies will provide what you are seeking in the slam department.

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post #18 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 01:11 PM
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You're not talking about making a built-in but rather just making my own cube and buying the electrical and woofer separate? If so, let's say that I went that dual $899 route for $1899, how much would a DIY equivalent cost?
Roughly half...or less.

Check this section of the forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/
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post #19 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 02:38 PM
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Another option that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet would be a DIY sub. Then you can build it anyway you like it to be. And it looks like you have a wood shop already.
+1 this. $2k is enough to get a killer setup, even for a room of your size, if you are willing to take on a little project. A pair of Martycubes or Stonehenges (interior and paneling) will own you in that room, with performance multiple times that of any commercial sub for the same price.
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post #20 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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+1 this. $2k is enough to get a killer setup, even for a room of your size, if you are willing to take on a little project. A pair of Martycubes or Stonehenges (interior and paneling) will own you in that room, with performance multiple times that of any commercial sub for the same price.
I'm asking in the DIY forum for advice. I read through the DIY FAQ and at this point I think the only thing I'd be interested in doing is some kit like what you proposed. I assume I could put a HT18 inside those boxes?

Can you explain the AMP to me. I'm inexperienced with standalone amps and I don't know if these boxes support amps inside. What's the easiest way to solve the AMP issue while staying within the apparently new budget? Also, what else would I need? Is it just subwoofer, box, amp, some poly?
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post #21 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 03:25 PM
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Another option to confuse you. lol You can get a DIY kit from Rythmik for a rear ported 15 inch down firing sub. So (child proof). And it will come with a DSP amp that has been tuned for the driver they sale. And they have the layout specs to build the enclosure. I am not sure if these are the same as there FV15HP! But the FV15HP can put out some serious SPL for a 15 sub. You can see more detail of that sub here http://www.data-bass.com/systems

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/DS1500ci.html

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/download...v_sub_plan.pdf
Or you can buy pre-cut sub boxes that you just have to assemble pretty cheap.


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post #22 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 03:29 PM
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With a $2k budget, you can do better than the HT18 driver. I would be looking at Dayton Ultimax 18s at the very least. The HT18 do give you a lot of bang for the buck though. As for the amps, for dual subs, just use an outboard amp. There aren't many plate amps to choose from, and you would be paying a lot more per watt for a plate amp. All you need to do is install binding posts like these guys in the cabinet, and connect the amp to that.

And yes, the sub is basically just driver, cabinet, poly, amp, also remember any feet you want, and painting material and other odds and ends. With respect to amps, these are the kind you want to look at. This one should work well, it has plenty of power for both subs, and can activate limiters to protect the drivers, it also has some internal EQs to knock down response peaks should you have any.
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post #23 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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With a $2k budget, you can do better than the HT18 driver. I would be looking at Dayton Ultimax 18s at the very least. The HT18 do give you a lot of bang for the buck though. As for the amps, for dual subs, just use an outboard amp. There aren't many plate amps to choose from, and you would be paying a lot more per watt for a plate amp. All you need to do is install binding posts like these guys in the cabinet, and connect the amp to that.

And yes, the sub is basically just driver, cabinet, poly, amp, also remember any feet you want, and painting material and other odds and ends. With respect to amps, these are the kind you want to look at. This one should work well, it has plenty of power for both subs, and can activate limiters to protect the drivers, it also has some internal EQs to knock down response peaks should you have any.
Am I reading the chart wrong or something? According to http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/...spec-sheet.pdf the Ultimax 18's can barely even break 90db at any frequency. When I compare the graph to the results on http://www.data-bass.com/systems it seems a lot quieter than the stuff on data-bass.com. What am I missing?

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post #24 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 05:48 PM
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Lol, yeah you are not quite reading that right. That measurement was taken at 2.83v, like one watt. At its full power handling, 1000 watts, on paper should it be able to do 120 dB.
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post #25 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Well that would explain it lol!
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post #26 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, one last question before I head off to bed...

I didn't really plan for all this DIY stuff and so I'm wondering if I have the power on a single 20 amp line to run an inuke NU6000DSP powering two Dayton 18's, my Denon x3000 running some NHT Supers, a 65" Samsung LED TV, and a PS4?

Originally, I was going to just get a sub with a plate and plug it into a separate circuit. But now if to save money I go the separate amp route, I'm kind of stuck and have to place it near everything else on the same circuit.

One Dayton UM18-22 with 1000 RMS @ 4 ohms would draw 15 amps by itself if I'm not mistaken!

Thoughts?

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post #27 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 08:04 PM
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Am I reading the chart wrong or something? According to http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/...spec-sheet.pdf the Ultimax 18's can barely even break 90db at any frequency. When I compare the graph to the results on http://www.data-bass.com/systems it seems a lot quieter than the stuff on data-bass.com. What am I missing?
The SPL at 88 dB is 1 watt or 2.83V at 1 meter distance. The sub can run 1000 watts. Every time you double the watts, you gain 3 db.
1 watt = 88dB
2 watt = 91dB
4 watt = 94dB
8 watt = 97dB
on and on.


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post #28 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 08:10 PM
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Okay, one last question before I head off to bed...

I didn't really plan for all this DIY stuff and so I'm wondering if I have the power on a single 20 amp line to run an inuke NU6000DSP powering two Dayton 18's, my Denon x3000 running some NHT Supers, a 65" Samsung LED TV, and a PS4?

Originally, I was going to just get a sub with a plate and plug it into a separate circuit. But now if to save money I go the separate amp route, I'm kind of stuck and have to place it near everything else on the same circuit.

One Dayton UM18-22 with 1000 RMS @ 4 ohms would draw 15 amps by itself if I'm not mistaken!

Thoughts?
Yes, I think your math is off. I think its. (Amps x volts = watts). 15 amps is good for 1800 watts. And that is a constant draw. The sub amp will only be pulling full power at ULF peaks.


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post #29 of 32 Old 01-29-2015, 11:11 PM
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If you are planning on running these things hard, I do think a dual Martysub setup should be placed on its own circuit. What is funny is that everyone is so concerned about pressurizing your room, and you are using NHT Supers for fronts. If you go ahead with this your bass will be so much more powerful than the rest of the bandwidth. I would think about eventually upgrading to speakers which could keep up with Martysubs. The good news is that there are similarly easy and affordable DIY projects for very good and powerful speakers as there is for subs.
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post #30 of 32 Old 01-30-2015, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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@shadyJ

I understand there are limits to what I can do given my equipment and also to what I want to do. Forgetting pressurization for a moment, let's say I drop a dedicated 20 amp line to run two of the part's express 18' ultimax sealed kits (they are only 20" cubes compared to the 2' marty cubes and that extra few inches might make or break my WAF). Will that cause the bass to be disproportional to my NHT Supers? I know I can turn them down, but if that's necessary then should I just go with one sub? I honestly do not plan to upgrade my NHT's until I move houses, there just isn't room even in my eyes forgetting the WAF for a minute. In my next house I'll go crazy, but right now I want to say I'll be happy with what I have.
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