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BIC F12 "falls of cliff at 80hz"

9K views 31 replies 12 participants last post by  jaeelarr 
#1 ·
Was reading some reviews of the F 12 and one comment was that the sub was not good for use with a high crossover above 80 Hz. Is that correct? Do most budget subs have this problem?

I am looking for a sub to use with a golden near super cinema X with a Marantz NR 1403. Going to stay 3.1. Although budget is not a problem I live in a condo with connected walls so my bass output is very low.

My current set up is a pioneer SP sb 23 sound bar which has a MASSIVELY..... small 6.5 inch sub which honestly is more than enough. I'm thinking the 8 inch Pioneer version would be more than enough but I want to make sure I get something Thats blends nicely with the system and makes it sound great while not overpaying for huge output that I cannot use.

Oh the manual for cinema x says crossover at 120hz
Any help or ideas :)
 
#2 ·
I don't recommend making audio buying decisions based on reviews. In this industry they are unbelievably bad. I use the F12 in my computer audio system. I use the sub's own crossover so I couldn't tell you at what frequency it crosses but my bookshelf speakers have 5" woofers and the system works quite well. I would ignore what you read.
 
#4 ·
I have an F12 and have my CC crossed-over at 120hz. I have not noticed any problems- bass from cc seems very full. I was more worried about being able to localize the bass at such a high X-over, since my sub is behind my couch, but I haven't noticed that either.

My BIC F12 ran out of steam at around 35hz. It had no issues with the 80hz range.
He's referring to the top limit, not the bottom. It wouldn't be much of a sub if it couldn't play below 80hz...
 
#6 ·
Since you have the budget I'd aim for a better sounding sub. Something like the SVS SB1000 would work well with your speakers. It's a small, sealed 12" sub. Since you don't need a lot of output it would work well and sound much better than the Bic.
 
#7 · (Edited)
good info so far, the BIC info I read was probably not accurate.

As for the sb1000, would that be a better choice than golden ears own sub force three?

EDIT: been looking at sb1000, looks really good. At $600 in piano black hopefully I can get enough use out of it without bothering anyone haha.
 
#8 ·
Out of curiosity (BIC F12 owner here), would a SB1000 or SB2000 sound night and day from the F12?

I have never heard a sealed sub before. I know they are more power hungry and generally have less "efficient" output than ported subs...but I've always wondered how the SVS subs would sound compared to the BIC.

FWIW, mine is set at 120 Hz and there is no localization. Happy with it.
 
#9 ·
You are comparing apples to oranges. Computer speakers are not equivalent to home theater speakers and neither are el cheapo speakers.

That Golden Ears sub is an 8" driver and the plate amp is rated at 1000 watts.

No 8" driver I know of can handle 1000 watts. I saw a review where the 1500 watts of the ForceField 5 is a 'midway between average and peak' according to the designer (that is actually the number on the input power plug connector too -- power out cannot exceed power in long term). In that case the ForceField 3 is probably a 750W rms amp and it probably also cannot come anywhere near its rated extension either. The SB1000 extension seems about equal to the tested extension of the Forcefield 5.

If the power spec of the FF3 is a lie probably all the other specs are lies also including that 18Hz extension rating.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ear-forcefield-3-4-thoughts.html#post28182938

GE has gone on record in refusing to send Josh Ricci any subs to review. You can make of that what you will. The one subwoofer they did have measured (the force field 3) by soundvision performed quite poorly under 40hz. It did okay in the upper bass.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...eld-5-subwoofer-official-avsforum-review.html

Goldenears appear to be high output super-compact passive radiator designs. They compromise on sound in order to get the size down IMO (I have never heard one though, just going by what I am reading). Depending on your application, small size may be good but you are paying nearly double for the privelege of losing sound quality IMO.

My guess is that the SB1000 will destroy that Golden Ears Force 3 in both raw output and extension. SVS specs are honest and that sealed sub is a 12 inch driver rated for 24-250Hz that probably will do 20 Hz in a very smallish room.

The thing you have to ask yourself is what performance you want. Bothering your neighbors or not is going to be totally in your control. The better the subwoofer, the less chance of boomy response that will annoy people and the more likely you are to be satisfied with lower output levels plus the higher you can go in output before annoying people with the boom.

Also, if you use a home theater receiver with it you can have things like room EQ and dynamic EQ and dynamic range control available to improve the sound further while controlling how much you annoy the neighbors with bass transients.

Audyssey MultEQ/-XT/-XT32 are the three comon flavors of room EQ you want to investigate if affordable subwoofer EQ is desired but Audyssey 2EQ will not EQ the sub and the new Onkyos do not have Audyssey at all.

Other room EQ systems (YPAO from Yamaha, MCACC from Pioneer etc.) have different capabilities and may or may not EQ the sub or speakers depending. Onkyo's AccuEQ is not room EQ and generally not recommended on this forum either.

If you do use a receiver you probably want to investigate better speakers too. SVS Prime satellite speakers with that SB1000 subwoofer will give you great performance for $770 plus you can demo the system at home with no financial risk at all if you take care of it and return it within the time window. BUT you will need to increase your budget to include a receiver and wiring at a minimum.

There are other options available from Infinity and Polk etc. that will save you money but they probably will not match the performance of the SVS for the money.

You can certainly spend much less for a quality system dedicated to computer sound if you want to. Then again if you invest in quality home theater system now you can also add things like streaming audio/video player etc. and be happy with your new home theater plus you will have optional upgrade path to surround sound with matching speakers.

Up to you which path you want to take.
 
#20 ·
I'm going to make the sb1000 my starting point and if need be move up to the sb2000/pb2000

Did some more involved measurements of my place, came out to around 3,490 cu feet including an open inlet by front door. Wasn't sure if should include closet that's usually open. Coarse if you include both closets and the bathroom (if doors open) it comes to 4300.

Seems big till you realize that's my entire place haha. Studio condo.
 
#21 ·
Contact SVS for advice before ordering. They are unlikely to recommend something you will be disappointed with.

You might be better off with more capable sub even though you are unlikely to utilize its full output capability. Dual subs might also help out plus room EQ on the sub is practically mandatory if you do not want to annoy neighbors.

My apartment total size is ~4200 cu ft and all the doors in here are usually open plus the sliding glass door too since this is California and the home theater radiates substantial heat. The listening space contains approximately 60% of the total volume while the rest is through doorways.

I was going to get a single PB1000 but two used PB10's (older and similar model) showed up on Craigslist on the same day I was going to order. I went with ported because I wanted the extension to at least 20Hz but not much lower to avoid annoying people or going broke.

I can hear output down to 14Hz with these subs using waveform editor's tone generator, although the output is way down at that frequency due to internal high pass below port tuning. Comparable sealed subs would have been harder to find used and despite potentially deeper extension the rolloff would have started earlier and room EQ will not try to compensate below the -3dB point. I paid $540 total and it seems like a steal for the performance.

I rely on Audyssey MultEQ-XT32 room EQ and Dynamic EQ loudness compensation plus the dual subs to smooth out the bass. I had to pull my sofa 2' from the wall to get away from the boundary and out of a null. Music sounds great in here and movies have so much bang I have to use Dynamic Volume to compress the dynamics or the bass rips this place apart.

My neighbor has one PB10 in similar apartment and it also overpowers the space. He has only Audyssey 2EQ that does not EQ the bass (basically worthless so he has it turned off) and his low end has the roughness of room modes on it. Response was flatter with the sub in the middle of his front wall but when he re-arranged things the sub ended up in a corner and now it has a deeper muddy growl that is quite astonishing in its intensity on some material.

He has gotten complaints whereas I have not. I suspect it is partly because I have managed to smooth out the bass with dual subs stimulating more room modes and better room EQ smoothing out residual errors. One of my subs is near a corner and the other is in the middle of the wall to ensure the modes are substantially different (plus there is little placement flexibility in here).

Neither one of us feels like we are missing out. I suspect if you get a PB2000 you will feel like you got too much sub. I would recommend less capable duals instead for smoother output, unless you think you can get away with the booming. Also you need to consider how much room the sub takes, especially since placement is a huge determiner of the final result. If you are not already using room EQ on your sub you need to consider it. Many of the more pro people on AVS prefer to only EQ the sub with an outboard processor because they feel the room EQ mucks up their pro speakers and they are probably right about that IMO if their room acoustics are well controlled.

'Course I ain't no expert. Call SVS.
 
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