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post #1 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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*SUBS* Hot or Not ?

Just curious where other people set their sub trim after auto-eq?

Do you set them differently for BD vs regular cable tv or streaming?

I use Audyssey XT32 with dual Hsu VTF3 MK5 subs.


After Audyssey, I tend to set them 10db hot. Honestly, I think I could set them 15db and be happy. And that's everything but BD movies. On BD movies there are certain ultra low freq scenes where 10db can be scary (as in oh **** I'm going to screw up my subs, scary). I can't figure out it if I'm just deaf or if a lot of people run them that hot. On music 10-12 db does NOT sound boomy. Rather it sounds good, like it does in my car with a stock Ford stereo system.
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post #2 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 01:00 PM
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I'm running 6dB hot with REW and a MiniDSP. I also have a bit of boost at a few frequencies, so I'm a bit more than 6dB hot at those frequencies. Running hot and boosting certain frequencies isn't a problem with my dual Hsu VTF-15H mk2 subs in a 13x24 sealed theater. Setup like this they hit really hard and I get moments that make you say !@#$, but not from fear of the subs breaking. It's just because sometimes you're like !@#$ that hits hard.

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post #3 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 01:10 PM
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IMO, it is so very personal and situational that others' experience just cannot translate. FWIW, I tend to listen to a lot of acoustic jazz and classical, and I use Audyssey's dynamic EQ almost all the time. So the bass is by definition increased (just on a slope bawed, theoretically, on human hearing rather than across the board. Before Audyssey, I found I needed to turn down my aubs 2 or 3 dB to avoid fakey-sounding basses. Likely more about my room, and maybe a bit about a personal overamped bass problem, than anything else. I have a couple of pesky resonant peaks between, IIRC, 40 and 100 Hz . . . .

I also will say that typical retail store (even high endish stores) tend to, to my ears, have the subs too high in level. It makes them sound slow, to me, like the deep bass is half a beat behind the rest of the sound it belongs to. When I can get away with it, simply reducing the sub level makes things less oh-my-god impressive, but more palatable.

But, IMO, everybody responds to sonic inaccuracies differently, and there may well be ugly sounding things in other frequency ranges that would drive bass freaks nuts that I simply don't notice, as they apparently don't notice what sounds to me like way outta whack low end from a sub . . ..
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post #4 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 01:11 PM
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My movie curve starts about 3db hot at 120hz and end up around 10db hot at 8hz where it begins to roll off. Music depends. Some sounds good with the movie setting. Some tracks need more and some need less.
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post #5 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 02:08 PM
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Audyssey set my PB-13 Ultras to -1.5 and -2db but I brought them up to 0db. I don't think that classifies as hot, but I did bump the gain marginally over Audyssey calculation.
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post #6 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 02:13 PM
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I bumped both of subs' trims about 5db up after running MultEQ XT32 and SubEQ. So far, so good!
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post #7 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 02:57 PM
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I run both my subs 5db hot after running XT32 and also engage Dynamic EQ which adds a boost as well.
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post #8 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 03:25 PM
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Op, 10-15db hot are on the aggressive side. What is your normal MV level?
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post #9 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Op, 10-15db hot are on the aggressive side. What is your normal MV level?
Normal volume during is -10 to -15db. And I always have DynEQ on. Plus I added a second DynEQ of sorts by using minidsp = low shelf +8db at 40hz.
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post #10 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post
My movie curve starts about 3db hot at 120hz and end up around 10db hot at 8hz where it begins to roll off. Music depends. Some sounds good with the movie setting. Some tracks need more and some need less.
Interesting, I thing what I'm chasing is that mid bass punch/feeling. I'm a bit ignorant on where to introduce gains with minidsp.

What factors did you input to create the movie curve? Or is it too many/complicated to list?

If anyone has a suggestion on what PEQ(s) to add to minidsp to create more 'mid-bass' punch - please share.
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post #11 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
I'm running 6dB hot with REW and a MiniDSP. I also have a bit of boost at a few frequencies, so I'm a bit more than 6dB hot at those frequencies. Running hot and boosting certain frequencies isn't a problem with my dual Hsu VTF-15H mk2 subs in a 13x24 sealed theater. Setup like this they hit really hard and I get moments that make you say !@#$, but not from fear of the subs breaking. It's just because sometimes you're like !@#$ that hits hard.
That's dreaking awesome, I have about the same set-up but vtf3 mk5's and goldenear mains (not the ones with bass). I too have plenty of headroom. I wish I could make it so gunshots and explosions were more impactful.
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post #12 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you think my room is issue? Too big/open? I don't have ANY nulls or dips after Audyssey. But does my room just need bigger subs when I want a lot of bass at -15db listening levels?
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post #13 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 04:52 PM
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I run mine about 8 dB hot:


Audyssey XT32, DEQ off, 60 Hz XO, typical MV = -10
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post #14 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
Normal volume during is -10 to -15db. And I always have DynEQ on. Plus I added a second DynEQ of sorts by using minidsp = low shelf +8db at 40hz.
I hope you also have a high pass filter for your subs. At your -10 to -15MV with subs running 10 to 15db hot plus the redirecting bass from speakers, you are asking your subs to produce >115db every time plus +8db below 40hz. I don't think your mk5 pair can handle that especially down low. I wouldn't try with the beginning of EoT scene at that level.
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post #15 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 05:11 PM
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I dont have minidsp, but I read yesterday of comments that it will reduce the dB down 10 dB. If that is the case, the adding 10 will make you back to nominal. It may be worth checking that out to see if its true.


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post #16 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac
Just curious where other people set their sub trim after auto-eq?
I run my subs 3dB hot - with Audyssey DEQ on - for most* movies / concert BDs. (I tend to listen at -18dB to -14dB on the MV.)

______________
*One notable exception is "Metallica: Through the Never". The bass on that flick is crazy hot, so much so that even with the subs at Audyssey cal levels (0dB hot) and with DEQ off, I still get a good massage.

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post #17 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I hope you also have a high pass filter for your subs. At your -10 to -15MV with subs running 10 to 15db hot plus the redirecting bass from speakers, you are asking your subs to produce >115db every time plus +8db below 40hz. I don't think your mk5 pair can handle that especially down low. I wouldn't try with the beginning of EoT scene at that level.
Someone said in a post, they 'think' the HSU has high pass filter. Not sure though. I know where the HPF section of minidsp is. It has options like 12 or 24 butterworth. I have no clue what options to select.
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post #18 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 06:09 PM
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By definition, THX Reference Level is subs +10db over the treble. [That is ignoring any extra EQ boost; which is more of a wattage-eater than an SPL-maker if for dips, anyways...]

I'm hitting 129db on Interstellar bass-scenes, so I guess that means I am 10db+14db= 24db hot over the treble and 14db over THX Ultra2. (and yes, it goes louder, than even that much...)
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post #19 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
By definition, THX Reference Level is subs +10db over the treble. [That is ignoring any extra EQ boost; which is more of a wattage-eater than an SPL-maker if for dips, anyways...]

I'm hitting 129db on Interstellar bass-scenes, so I guess that means I am 10db+14db= 24db hot over the treble and 14db over THX Ultra2. (and yes, it goes louder, than even that much...)
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post #20 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
Interesting, I thing what I'm chasing is that mid bass punch/feeling. I'm a bit ignorant on where to introduce gains with minidsp.

What factors did you input to create the movie curve? Or is it too many/complicated to list?

If anyone has a suggestion on what PEQ(s) to add to minidsp to create more 'mid-bass' punch - please share.
Chest thump is generally 80-120hz. Boosting this area 3-5 db could get you there. Also I see a lot of people turn down the crossover on the LFE channel to 80hz. It should be left at 120 and turning it down will suck away that thump.
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post #21 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
IMO, it is so very personal and situational that others' experience just cannot translate. FWIW, I tend to listen to a lot of acoustic jazz and classical, and I use Audyssey's dynamic EQ almost all the time. So the bass is by definition increased (just on a slope bawed, theoretically, on human hearing rather than across the board. Before Audyssey, I found I needed to turn down my aubs 2 or 3 dB to avoid fakey-sounding basses. Likely more about my room, and maybe a bit about a personal overamped bass problem, than anything else. I have a couple of pesky resonant peaks between, IIRC, 40 and 100 Hz . . . .

I also will say that typical retail store (even high endish stores) tend to, to my ears, have the subs too high in level. It makes them sound slow, to me, like the deep bass is half a beat behind the rest of the sound it belongs to. When I can get away with it, simply reducing the sub level makes things less oh-my-god impressive, but more palatable.

But, IMO, everybody responds to sonic inaccuracies differently, and there may well be ugly sounding things in other frequency ranges that would drive bass freaks nuts that I simply don't notice, as they apparently don't notice what sounds to me like way outta whack low end from a sub . . ..
I like your description of the bass running half a beat behind when the mid-bass levels are too high. The first thing I noticed, after getting used to a smooth response from the PB-2000 vs the hyper mid-bass of the Polk Audio PSW505, was that the kick drums sounded much more realistic and fast. listening to The Aristocrats right now, and man, I can't imagine listening to this without a good, fast responding sub.

I wish now that I'd gone for a better sub in the first place, instead of getting used to the hyper mids and then trying to emulate that with the SVS sub. I prefer hearing the bass guitar playing than just the boom from the drums. Of course, I did upgrade from the PB-1000 to the 2000, so I'm getting that thump as well. heh

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post #22 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 08:35 PM
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I started around 12-15db hot a couple years ago after I got my XV subs... now I run around 3-6db depending on the source. After I got through the phase of blowing my brains out with bass, I now appreciate the sound being more balanced. I use to listen @ MV +5 and hit peaks of 128-130db in the 40-80hz range....this was a short lived phase. That is too much for any extended listening. 115db is more then enough and that is about all my subs ever see unless I do a short demo for somebody. My 3 XV15se hit right around 120db @ 20hz with 7% thd according to rta analysis in REW. With source material that is probably more like 122db and thd would be even lower. I believe my placement and setup are really maximizing these subs potential.

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post #23 of 29 Old 05-13-2015, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Well as dumb luck would have it, I'm now back to 3db hot and have more/better bass than I did 10-15db hot.

A couple months ago I got rid of some wireless kits for my subs. One sub I had to run cable around 2 1/2 walls - about 40 feet.

I didn't have sub cable that long so I took a cheap 25 foot yellow/white/red cord and peeled off the red and white. I then got an adapter (two female ends?) and put the two together. That was my sub cord. Right about that time I had read a post where people were saying higher end cords weren't needed.

Well that was BS. I got a custom length 40 foot audiophile grade subwoofer cord and matching 10 foot one for other sub. I even got two 3 foot (shortest I could find) to go from AVR to minidsp. It sounds like I have twice the subs now! Better quality sound also.

Now it's got me thinking about my other speakers.. I have them hooked up with cheap wire I got from hardware store. It's copper color on one side and silver on the other. I'm thinking if I get better speaker wire, they might sound better too!
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Don't have auto calibration I do it manually with a radio shack meter, and set sub to the same as the other channels (how much the RS meter is out on lower frequencies I do not know) For movies leave it like that

For 2 channel music I found reducing it for -3dB, it has a 2 channel mode with independent levels

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post #25 of 29 Old Yesterday, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Don't have auto calibration I do it manually with a radio shack meter, and set sub to the same as the other channels (how much the RS meter is out on lower frequencies I do not know) For movies leave it like that

For 2 channel music I found reducing it for -3dB, it has a 2 channel mode with independent levels
I have what's supposed to be higher end spl meter. And my subs read 10db less. So you might be running them pretty hot. I wish I knew how to measure subs with spl and really know what they are doing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
Just curious where other people set their sub trim after auto-eq?

Do you set them differently for BD vs regular cable tv or streaming?

I use Audyssey XT32 with dual Hsu VTF3 MK5 subs.


After Audyssey, I tend to set them 10db hot. Honestly, I think I could set them 15db and be happy. And that's everything but BD movies. On BD movies there are certain ultra low freq scenes where 10db can be scary (as in oh **** I'm going to screw up my subs, scary). I can't figure out it if I'm just deaf or if a lot of people run them that hot. On music 10-12 db does NOT sound boomy. Rather it sounds good, like it does in my car with a stock Ford stereo system.

6-15dB hotter than Audyssey XT32 sets my subs.
Definitely - hotter for music than movies.


Flat, as Audyssey suggests, sounds very anemic.
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  • Dual PSA T-18s
  • DynEQ always ON
  • Normal movie MV is -15 to -12 (-10 if I'm feeling froggy )

I'm running the subs 9db hotter than where Audyssey set them (-10db to -1db sub trim)...this sounds "balanced" to me, if I go just one db higher the bass starts to overwhelm.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
Well as dumb luck would have it, I'm now back to 3db hot and have more/better bass than I did 10-15db hot.

A couple months ago I got rid of some wireless kits for my subs. One sub I had to run cable around 2 1/2 walls - about 40 feet.

I didn't have sub cable that long so I took a cheap 25 foot yellow/white/red cord and peeled off the red and white. I then got an adapter (two female ends?) and put the two together. That was my sub cord. Right about that time I had read a post where people were saying higher end cords weren't needed.

Well that was BS. I got a custom length 40 foot audiophile grade subwoofer cord and matching 10 foot one for other sub. I even got two 3 foot (shortest I could find) to go from AVR to minidsp. It sounds like I have twice the subs now! Better quality sound also.

Now it's got me thinking about my other speakers.. I have them hooked up with cheap wire I got from hardware store. It's copper color on one side and silver on the other. I'm thinking if I get better speaker wire, they might sound better too!
A cable really shouldn't make that much of a difference...that must have been a really crappy cable.

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post #29 of 29 Unread Today, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
I wish I knew how to measure subs with spl and really know what they are doing.
It's meant to be portable.
If it's a c-weighted SPL meter then you need to add some db's at low frequencies.

REW has a C-weighted correction factor in the settings page to do this for you, but you'd need a cable (if you don't have one and assuming your SPL meter supports it.)


If you want an SPL meter than is flat from 5hz to 25kHz buy one of these, and run it's cal file with sensitivity factor via REW. (That's what most people are doing, with great success.)
http://cross-spectrum.com/measuremen...ated_umik.html
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