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Better room correction or two subwoofers

4K views 63 replies 16 participants last post by  derrickdj1 
#1 ·
Hi avs members
This might not be first post regarding this topic.
But I have an opportunity to upgrade my ht(managed to scarp some up some cash:)
I have tried virtually all subwoofer positions but still can get even bass.
Have full range speakers with a psb 5i 10 inch sub hooked up to a denon avr791 $500 list price has audyessy.

Room is 20 by 21 height 7.5 feet basement
My question should I get a more powerful receiver with pro calibration like anthem / pioneer elite or by two subwoofers to fill my room with deep bass?
Thanks!
 
#2 ·
Calibration can do very little for nulls, but can be fairly effective for peaks. You either move the sub (which you’ve done), move the listening position, or buy another sub to smooth out the response.
 
#5 ·
Correction alone is only effective within a very small percentage of the room. Multiple subs works everywhere. In a room that size you're not going to get great bass with less than three ten inch subs, maybe not even then.
 
#6 ·
Hi avs members
This might not be first post regarding this topic.
You got that right. ;)


I have tried virtually all subwoofer positions but still can get even bass.
Getting even bass over multiple seats can be difficult even with multiple subwoofers. How many rows of seating and how many seats in each row? A drawing and/or pics of the room would be helpful.


Have full range speakers
But you are running them set to "small" in the AVR, correct?? What speakers are they? Where does Audyssey set the crossover for the speakers?

with a psb 5i 10 inch sub hooked up to a denon avr791 $500 list price has audyessy.
Room is 20 by 21 height 7.5 feet basement
Ummm..yeah. Surprised you're getting any satisfying bass with a 10" sub in a room that large.


My question should I get a more powerful receiver with pro calibration like anthem / pioneer elite or by two subwoofers to fill my room with deep bass?
I would recommend a Denon or Marantz receiver with Audyssey XT32 plus dual subs. :D

What's your budget??
 
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#8 · (Edited)
You got that right. ;)




Getting even bass over multiple seats can be difficult even with multiple subwoofers. How many rows of seating and how many seats in each row? A drawing and/or pics of the room would be helpful.




But you are running them set to "small" in the AVR, correct?? What speakers are they? Where does Audyssey set the crossover for the speakers?



Ummm..yeah. Surprised you're getting any satisfying bass with a 10" sub in a room that large.




I would recommend a Denon or Marantz receiver with Audyssey XT32 plus dual subs. :D

What's your budget??
Yes they are set to small I'm not that stupid 😄
I manually set the crossover to 80hz on channels as all of the speakers are full range.
Budget is $2500

May ask why not pioneer or anthem?
 
#7 ·
#14 ·
Preferably you'd want the exact same model and make.
But the general rule of thumb with subs is, the bigger the cone and the bigger the box the better the sub will be; in both SQ and SPL.
Sometimes it is better to go with a better sub and use the worse sub as a fluffer. (LOL ;))
Obviously two better-subs would be best, but...
 
#16 ·
These are the options I would consider if I were in your shoes:

Dual RA Echo 18
Dual RA Echo 15
Dual RA Gamma 18

Dual PSA S3000i
Dual PSA V1500
Dual PSA S1500
Dual PSA V1800(should be out soon)

Dual Hsu VTF15 Mk2
Dual Hsu VTF3 Mk5

Dual Rythmik FV15HP
Dual Rythmik FVX15

I would get set up with those before I considered an AVR upgrade. I have a $200 AVR and have +/- 2dB bass with above reference level capability down to below 10 Hz.

If your AVR does not eq subs, a miniDSP for $100 or so will do the trick as good or better than any room correction.

With your budget, there are many extremely good quality dual sub options out there, any one of which will give you 3 or 4 times the capability of your current sub in both output and sound quality.
 
#20 ·
Ok this is off topic
But I was changing surround modes the other day,I switched from surround to stereo while playing a loud scene amp volume was about -5db,ever since I have this paranoia that I might have damaged the tweeters,I have been playing vocal music can find no distortion but find the treble a bit dull and rough than before.
My question here is can sudden loud spikes cause damage to tweeter?
Thanks
 
#21 ·
My question here is can sudden loud spikes cause damage to tweeter?
Yes. Tweeters are more delicate than midranges, which are more delicate than woofers.
 
#25 ·
I would suggest using your AVR's test tones and then (carefully) approach the speaker and listen to the tweeter to see if it is producing any sound. Perhaps safer (for your ears) would be to play some music at a low level and check with your ear close to the tweeter to see if it is producing any sound.

Completely off topic, but since you're talking about upgrades, I would highly recommend that you replace the odd centre speaker with a PMC DB1i which is the original matching model for your GB1i speakers. I'd suggest this above upgrading the AVR too since the centre speaker does so much of the sound on films and having a good match for the L/R is essential IMHO. I previously ran a mix of PMC DB1i L/R and a TB2+ centre and it didn't work as well until I found matching TB2+ L/R speakers, so I can only guess at the mismatch you currently have and it's effect on the sound stage.
 
#26 ·
Have played the test tones, there is definately sound coming from the tweeters.
The only thing i find a bit different is that vocals have lost the amazing sparkle the gb1is had.
I may be overthinking this though.


Awesome suggestion about the db1is,I always find my self changing centre speaker levels.
The only reason I wasn't upgrading my center was that db1i would be a bit sml for my room but I guess speaker blending is more important.
 
#27 ·
Speaker blending is IMVHO critical especially in the front sound stage (though I later added PMC Wafer 1 as side surrounds and found further improvements before I 'defected' to MK Sound speakers). Also critical is the centre positioning as I had my DB1 and later TB2 centre a little too close the floor and trying the TB2 on a temporary stand higher up made me realise that I wasn't getting the best from it (but then couldn't see the TV :D).

In fact the reason I changed to wall mounted MK MP150 speakers is because they are designed to go on the wall (I had modified the TB2 to use the DB1 wall mount bracket). I get a better sound from my new system, not because they are 'better' speakers, but because I can locate them properly compared to my PMC set up.

Of course changing the centre isn't likely to alter the bass issues you have, so of course that's still something to consider, but getting the basics right is IMHO very important. FWIW I used the REW room sim to work out the best location(s) for my sub(s) as I have a simple rectangular room and the sim models it very well compared to actual measurements I eventually took. Might be worth trying it out to see if more than one sub will help (you could perhaps add a cheaper 'Antimode' device to automatically eq the sub(s) if the though of manually eqing using miniDSP is too much hassle).

I found that I had to put one sub at the front of the room (but not in the middle because of the TV/projector screen) and the other in the diagonally opposite corner at the rear. This gave very nearly the same response as the 'ideal' mid wall front and back option (as shown by REW sim), so my compromise didn't really impact too much on the result.

Of course 18 months on I'm now planing the upgrade; to add another pair of subs, one in each of the currently empty corners. :D
 
#28 ·
Im going to get a another subwoofer definately but like you said ,it makes more sense to match the front speakers rather than upgrading the avr.
Hard to find a single db1i though,they usually come in pairs and are around 1500 bucks.
Maybe I can sell the gb1i and buy cheaper but bigger speakers(400 square room ) like Kef q900s or bmw 683 with a matching centre.
Though only reason I'm reluctant to let go of pmc is that they very special with detail retrieval with music.
 
#31 ·
The DB1m-Ci is the centre model (you don't need to buy a pair of DB1i) as shown at the bottom of this PMC PDF:

https://pmc-speakers.com/sites/default/files/attachments/GB1i_Datasheet.pdf

However, it sounds like you end up paying much more for PMC out there as I sold my old DB1m-Ci for about £250 (approx $400) about 3 years ago. Maybe you'd be better getting a fresh set of matching LCR speakers at some point.

Now back to the subwoofer(s)...
 
#34 · (Edited)
It is recommended to have identical subwoofers.
If they are equidistant from the listening position, use a Y-splitter.
http://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-U...8479098&sr=8-2&keywords=mediabridge+y+adapter


If they are not, you need to time align them by measuring the difference in distances. So if one is 10 feet away and the other is 6 feet, the difference is 4 feet. Sound travels at 13512 inches per second. So 4 feet is about 3.5ms. Now, you need something like the miniDSP 2x4 to delay the closer sub by that amount. The other option is to buy a receiver that has 2 sub outputs.
 
#38 ·
You will need to decide if it is simple enough, or not. It is not as simple as just running Audyssey. What you will need is a UMIK-1 mike, the miniDSP 2x4 , a plug-in (software for the miniDSP), and the free REW software. Go to the REW for USB mikes topic under audio/audio theory and chat. Review for general information, but also specifically for the 2x4 setup, look for a link in the signature of AustinJerry, who posts frequently. For the costs for the mike, miniDSP 2x4, and plug-in, go to the miniDSP website.
The advantage of using a mike like the UMIK-1 with the REW software is it just plugs by USB into a typical laptop, with no additional hardware required. It is also a generally useful mike and software combination for room/system improvements, not just for sub setup.
 
#47 ·
Step 6: Determining the Gain Structure.
Overview
: The MiniDSP has a maximum input voltage. MiniDSP “Rev A” has a maximum input voltage
of .9VRMS. MiniDSP “Rev B’ has a switchable maximum input
voltage of either .9VRMS or 2.0VRMS. It
is extremely important that the maximum input voltage threshold not be exceeded when the AVR is
delivering a maximum signal on the subwoofer output channel. If the voltage threshold is exceeded,
distortion will be
the result. This procedure was written for a MiniDSP with a maximum input voltage of
.9VRMS, although the procedure can be modified for the 2.0VRMS device as appropriate

ok i dont get this part.
is this step really necessary ?
also i think there were two max input jumper options on the minidsp site , which one should i get REV A or REV B?
 
#50 ·
He had a Rev A, which is 0.9 V max. It is possible that the AVR could put out, for example, 1.1 V. He wanted to avoid clipping the signal with 1.1 V at the max sub output (for example, volume at reference, maximum signal from an LFE channel + redirected bass). Rev B has max input of 2 V, so 1.1 V would not clip it, and it can be changed back to 0.9 V internally (dip switch) if this setup isn't allowing maximum output from the subs. (Not sure if Rev A can be changed internally or not - check the manual which is available on the web site).
 
#54 ·
I believe the only difference between Rev A & B is the initial jumper setting. You can change either of them to be the other "Rev" by changing the jumper.

Use a DMM and measure the output from your sub pre-out, then get the appropriate Rev. ;)
 
#64 ·
I am in a large room like you Alan. I have always boosted the 20 Hz or less region. I guess the nice thing about a larger room is that you can play things closer to reference and not be overwhelmed. If you are in a basement on concrete, take way another 10 db, lol. Shakers and transducers are get HT add-on for those that need more tactile stimulation.
 
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