Optimizing subwoofers and integration with mains: multi sub optimizer - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 777 Old 08-24-2016, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mR_Mo View Post
i'm getting a shared gain of -6.77 and I have a gain block on one of the subs that's -9.35. I did normalize gain but don't know if anything happened (didn't check the values before...) In the Inuke there's a max setting of -12 gain.
Could I just do -9.35 - 6.77 = -2.58 on the sub that have the -9.35 gain block?

Or am I wrong about that?
If you do a "Rearrange gains" it will get rid of the shared gain and change it so there's two individual gains. But then you will get -6.77 dB and and -16.12 for the individual gains though. Do you have a sub trim on your AVR that you can use to get e.g. -6.5 dB? If you do, the end of the filter report will show the adjustment for it (which is rounded off to the nearest gain increment you specify for your AVR), provided you have set up MSO to specify the AVR characteristics. See the Tools, Application Options, Hardware dialog options for specifying your AVR options.

You may want to experiment with limiting the gain value range in the individual gain block to get higher total output, so one sub is not so much different in level from the other.

Last edited by andyc56; 08-24-2016 at 05:45 PM.
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post #302 of 777 Old 08-25-2016, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
For now, you can work around this in the following way:
  1. Add a single PEQ to a channel using the context menu
  2. Select the added PEQ and press Ctrl+C to copy it to the clipboard
  3. Select the "Filters" node of the channel, just above the node of the filter itself
  4. Press Ctrl+V as many times as you need to add copies of the PEQ
  5. Then, you can either "Copy Selected Filters" of the channel with Ctrl+C or "Copy All Filters" of the channel with Ctrl+Shift+C
  6. Move to the "Filters" node of the desired destination channel and press Ctrl+V to copy the collection of filters to the destination

There's more about copying and pasting filters in post 196.
Sorry for overlooking that simple way... that already solves my needs

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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
For the graphs, I wanted to avoid the blurry effect that happens with REW, which I think is the result of scaling one bitmap to create another - a lossy operation. I think I can render a graph to an in-memory metafile (a vector format), then scale the metafile to the desired size, preserving the aspect ratio. That is a lossless operation because of the vector nature of the metafile. Then I can create a bitmap by rendering the scaled metafile, so the result would be as if you had resized the window, preserving its aspect ratio, and saved it as a PNG file, without the blurry effect of scaling one bitmap to create another, and without having to physically resize the window. There would be a dialog with the current x and y dimensions of the graph in pixels. Changing one dimension would automatically change the other to preserve the aspect ratio. So you'd specify one dimension of the desired size in pixels, then save it as PNG.
That sounds like a pretty good solution, keeping the aspect ratio and best image quality!
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post #303 of 777 Old 08-30-2016, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
If you do a "Rearrange gains" it will get rid of the shared gain and change it so there's two individual gains. But then you will get -6.77 dB and and -16.12 for the individual gains though. Do you have a sub trim on your AVR that you can use to get e.g. -6.5 dB? If you do, the end of the filter report will show the adjustment for it (which is rounded off to the nearest gain increment you specify for your AVR), provided you have set up MSO to specify the AVR characteristics. See the Tools, Application Options, Hardware dialog options for specifying your AVR options.

You may want to experiment with limiting the gain value range in the individual gain block to get higher total output, so one sub is not so much different in level from the other.
Thanks, I've been busy with other stuff since but now I have some results and suggestions.
First picture is the REW measurement before and after mso on MLP. The result is pretty much the same as predicted by MSO and much flatter than before.
The second picture are MSO's predicted curve.

Suggestions: I do my eq in the Inuke 3000dsp that I have for my subs. It's a common subwoofer amplifier with built in dsp. That DSP has limitations that the minidsp don't have. If you could make som options to limit MSO to Inukes limitations it would be good, and help make the result more exact.
I'll try to list them here:
Gain for a peq filter, can only be input with .0 or .5
Frequency for a peq filter, has only one decimal, like 40.4
Quality has only 2 decimals, like 3.45

Besides PEQ it has
LS6 (low shelving EQ, with a 6 dB slope)
LS12 (low shelving EQ, with a 12 dB slope)
HS6 (high shelving EQ, with a 6 dB slope)
HS12 (high shelving EQ, with a 12 dB slope)
Only frequency and gain can be altered after it's choosen in the Inuke's software.
Is that in MSO an LF shelf first order och second order limited to 6 or 12 db?
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post #304 of 777 Old 08-30-2016, 05:55 PM
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I've just uploaded a new version, 1.17. It has the following changes:
  • Added ability to save scaled PNG files of graphs.
  • Disable reference frequency range controls in Optimization Options, Criteria for sub-only configs whose optimization method is Best match of MLP with other listening positions.
  • Allow low-pass filters to have a maximum legal cutoff frequency of 300 Hz.
  • Delete graphs that have no traces after a config is deleted.
  • Collapse individual config and graph nodes by default.
  • Updated help files.

The PNG file save uses a facility in the graphics library I'm using that allows rendering to any size of rectangle. A side effect is that the library automatically changes the units per division to fit the size of the graph. This isn't under my control. For example, a full size graph might look like this:



When reduced in size, it ends up looking like this:



The vertical scale for the larger graph is 5 dB/div, and for the smaller graph is 10 dB/div. That's a bit of an annoyance, but readability remains good.
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post #305 of 777 Old 08-30-2016, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mR_Mo View Post
Suggestions: I do my eq in the Inuke 3000dsp that I have for my subs. It's a common subwoofer amplifier with built in dsp. That DSP has limitations that the minidsp don't have. If you could make som options to limit MSO to Inukes limitations it would be good, and help make the result more exact.
I'll try to list them here:
Gain for a peq filter, can only be input with .0 or .5
Frequency for a peq filter, has only one decimal, like 40.4
Quality has only 2 decimals, like 3.45
I'll look at some kind of truncation facility for future versions, but that may not be for a while. I'll catch some low-hanging fruit for one update in September, then I've got some things around here to catch up on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mR_Mo View Post
Besides PEQ it has
LS6 (low shelving EQ, with a 6 dB slope)
That is "LF Shelf First-Order" in the Add Advanced Filter sub-menu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mR_Mo View Post
LS12 (low shelving EQ, with a 12 dB slope)
That's "LF Shelf Second-Order", same menu as above

Quote:
Originally Posted by mR_Mo View Post
HS6 (high shelving EQ, with a 6 dB slope)
That's "HF Shelf First-Order"

Quote:
Originally Posted by mR_Mo View Post
HS12 (high shelving EQ, with a 12 dB slope)
That's "HF Shelf Second-Order"

Quote:
Originally Posted by mR_Mo View Post
Only frequency and gain can be altered after it's choosen in the Inuke's software.
The LF shelf filters were originally made to be compatible with the iNuke and DCX2496 filters. I just checked, and Behringer specifies the HF corner of the HF shelf filter, not the LF corner as I do. Rats.
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post #306 of 777 Old 08-30-2016, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mR_Mo View Post
Thanks, I've been busy with other stuff since but now I have some results and suggestions.
First picture is the REW measurement before and after mso on MLP. The result is pretty much the same as predicted by MSO and much flatter than before.
The second picture are MSO's predicted curve.
It looks like there could possibly be a polarity issue with the subs. In MSO, it might be worth a try to clone the configuration, put a polarity inversion in the shared sub channel of the clone, then re-run the optimization on the cloned configuration to see if the suckout at 70 Hz goes away.
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post #307 of 777 Old 08-30-2016, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
It looks like there could possibly be a polarity issue with the subs. In MSO, it might be worth a try to clone the configuration, put a polarity inversion in the shared sub channel of the clone, then re-run the optimization on the cloned configuration to see if the suckout at 70 Hz goes away.


I've done that now, we'll se how it goes. But this is a sub-only optimization will that help then?
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post #308 of 777 Old 08-30-2016, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mR_Mo View Post
I've done that now, we'll se how it goes. But this is a sub-only optimization will that help then?
Oops, sorry, I forgot it was a sub-only optimization. Never mind, it shouldn't make a difference at all.
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post #309 of 777 Old 08-31-2016, 01:19 PM
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a few questions that I couldn't see an obvious answer to in the docs

- is there an easy way to create a graph that shows the unoptimised response after an optimisation?
- how do you wipe out an optimisation and start again?
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post #310 of 777 Old 08-31-2016, 02:52 PM
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- is there an easy way to create a graph that shows the unoptimised response after an optimisation?
You'll want to use the "Configurations" feature for this:
  • Create a configuration, including all filters and graphs that apply, but do not optimize it.
  • Clone the configuration, making sure that "Clone associated graphs" is checked in the dialog box
  • Optimize the cloned configuration
  • Compare the graphs of the original and optimized clone configurations
  • Optionally, if you want the results all on one graph, create an additional graph containing traces from both the original and optimized clone configurations

You can see an example of this in the tutorial files, in tutorial_5_prefab.msop. There are three configurations in that file, called "Original" (before optimization), "Optimized" (after optimization) and "MLP Cleanup" (a second pass of optimization in which the response at the MLP is made as flat as possible using six PEQ filters shared among the subs).

For more info on configurations, see here and here.

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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
- how do you wipe out an optimisation and start again?
There's no way to do this directly. I should probably add a feature to reset all filters in a given configuration back to the default state.
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post #311 of 777 Old 08-31-2016, 03:15 PM
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@andyc56 thanks for the info, it would be nice to have a feature whereby you define a configuration and then flag that as the base config from which you then create n optimised configs

another suggestion is a feature like "allow arbitrary no of PEQ blocks" to cater for users who do DSP on a PC who can often employ an arbitrary no of filters. I don't know if this plays nicely with the optimisation algo though. I guess the extension of this creating an arbitrarily shaped FIR filter, not sure how feasible that is either.
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post #312 of 777 Old 08-31-2016, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
@andyc56 another suggestion is a feature like "allow arbitrary no of PEQ blocks" to cater for users who do DSP on a PC who can often employ an arbitrary no of filters. I don't know if this plays nicely with the optimisation algo though. I guess the extension of this creating an arbitrarily shaped FIR filter, not sure how feasible that is either.
You can have as many PEQ blocks (or any other type of supported filter) per channel as you want. The quickest way to add a lot of them to a channel is to add one, select it, then press Ctrl+C to copy it to the clipboard. Then move the cursor up to the "Filters" node of the channel, and press Ctrl+V as many times as you like. You can copy all, or a selected number of filters from a channel by selecting the Filters node and pressing Ctrl+Shift+C to copy all, or Ctrl+C to copy selected filters. You can paste single filters or collections of filters to another channel also.

If you mean that MSO should have a provision to figure out how many PEQs are needed, that's not how the optimization algorithm works. There is no closed mathematical form for the solution as there might be for, say, flattening a single response at a single listening position with a single filter channel. An exception to this is the matrix inversion approach, which requires FIR filters and has problems of its own when the matrix inversion yields a very high filter channel gain at a given frequency or collection of frequencies.

If you're referring to Tools, Application Options, Hardware, Filter Reports, Biquad limit, that only applies to filter reports and the "Save biquads as text" option. It is to ensure that the biquad count in the filter report or the saved biquad text file is compatible with the hardware so you don't get an error message when you import the file. I put a maximum of 12 on it, as the hardware I've seen from miniDSP has a limit of 10 biquads per channel on the most complex ones.

Edit: I just checked the format of the biquad text. If you set the biquad limit in Tools, Application Options, Hardware, Filter Reports, Biquad limit, to e.g. 6 and have a filter channel that requires e.g. 15 biquads to implement, the saved biquad text file will contain 15 biquads. Of course, that file won't be compatible with with hardware that only supports 6 biquads, but at least no information will be lost. OTOH, if the filter channel only requires e.g. 4 biquads, the remaining two will be filled out with a "through connection biquad" for which b0 is 1 and the rest of the coefficients 0.
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post #313 of 777 Old 08-31-2016, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
You can have as many PEQ blocks (or any other type of supported filter) per channel as you want. The quickest way to add a lot of them to a channel is to add one, select it, then press Ctrl+C to copy it to the clipboard. Then move the cursor up to the "Filters" node of the channel, and press Ctrl+V as many times as you like. You can copy all, or a selected number of filters from a channel by selecting the Filters node and pressing Ctrl+Shift+C to copy all, or Ctrl+C to copy selected filters. You can paste single filters or collections of filters to another channel also.
yes that's what I was doing

it would be nice to be able to define it differently as a one PEQ filter and then just specify the no of instances you want but that's just a minor UI change really. I suspect this is somewhere that is liable to be error prone once you've iterated over it a few times tweaking params as you go (aka "did I copy everything correctly? will have to blow it away and start again to be sure").

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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
If you mean that MSO should have a provision to figure out how many PEQs are needed, that's not how the optimization algorithm works. There is no closed mathematical form for the solution as there might be for, say, flattening a single response at a single listening position with a single filter channel. An exception to this is the matrix inversion approach, which requires FIR filters and has problems of its own when the matrix inversion yields a very high filter channel gain at a given frequency or collection of frequencies.
I did mean this and I thought that might be what you'd say. A nice optimisation for the lazy would be like a batch mode where you basically do (for the IIR case)

create base config
for 1..n
clone config
add n PEQ block
run optimisation
rank resulting optimisations and report on which one is best

something that designs a bespoke FIR filter would be handy too

I did have another question on gain, is the max gain per individual filter or does it also account for the total gain at a given frequency?
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post #314 of 777 Old 08-31-2016, 05:13 PM
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The gain limits are on a per-filter basis, not a per-channel one.

In general, I don't plan on any major changes in MSO in the near future. I'm going to do one release in September with only minor changes and bug fixes as necessary, then after that the weather gets cooler here and gives me a chance to work on other projects that I've had on hold for a while.
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post #315 of 777 Old 09-01-2016, 02:44 PM
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Hi Andy,

I had an electrical issue in my theater room that caused me to reset everything. Unfortunately before doing so I failed to write down the settings for my AVR. The MiniDSP is still programmed per your last recommendation, but I fear that it too will need to be reset and reprogrammed since I have to recalibrate the system. Having said all of that, since you have made at least one update to MSO since my last calibration, I was hoping you'd lend a hand again in getting the sound back to where it was and let me know if I should take a different approach this time around. below are some of the things that I did the last time before getting measurements via REW which were then used in MSO. Let me know if I should repeat this process or if I should go about it differently this time.

First off my setup (which you can see listed in my signature) includes a total of 11 speakers (7 bed speakers and 4 Dolby Atmos Enabled) plus the 2 SVS sealed subs.

Last time, prior to getting the measurements from REW I used my UMIK and REW to try to phase align the subs with the left front speaker. I did this by setting up the mic in a central location between the front and back rows of seats, and sending out a tone at 80hz that played thru the speaker and each sub. I level matched the speaker and subs individually, then turned off one of the subs. Next, I adjusted the phase on one sub until the overall dB level between it and the main speaker was at its peak. After that I turned on the second sub and and adjusted its phase until again the sum of the main speaker and the two subs was at its peak.

I mention all of this in case there is a better way to do this alignment, and also so you can point out whether or not your program would actually benefit from or requires that type of prep anyway.

Also note that my Pioneer SC-99 AVR (in my opinion) does a nice job with the MCACC Pro calibration it performs. Since the AVR has six independent memory slot where I can save multiple calibrations, I would like to use the MCACC Pro calibration in one of them in conjunction with your program to tweak the sub integration. I would do that by first running the MCACC Pro calibration and then measuring the setup with REW to get the reading needed for MSO and the MiniDSP.
In another Memory slot I can do the same with just a bare bones manual calibration which includes the distances and gain levels only and then add your MSO program to integrate the subs again.

Thanks again for your help.

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post #316 of 777 Old 09-01-2016, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by welldun View Post
Since the AVR has six independent memory slot where I can save multiple calibrations, I would like to use the MCACC Pro calibration in one of them in conjunction with your program to tweak the sub integration. I would do that by first running the MCACC Pro calibration and then measuring the setup with REW to get the reading needed for MSO and the MiniDSP.
In another Memory slot I can do the same with just a bare bones manual calibration which includes the distances and gain levels only and then add your MSO program to integrate the subs again.
Didn't you end up having to use Pure Direct mode in your receiver in order to get the measurements to work correctly? I seem to remember that you initially had problems with the acoustic timing reference signal not coming out of the center speaker as it should. This is the post I was thinking of, and also this one. Doesn't Pure Direct disable the MCACC? If so, have you found a way to do the measurements so that the acoustic timing reference works right and the effects of MCACC are included?

Other than that, I'd recommend just setting the phase control of both your subs to zero before doing the measurements, as having a non-zero value just adds more potential for error. The individual delays calculated by MSO and implemented in the miniDSP serve the same function. You'll also want to reset the miniDSP so there's no delay, no attenuation, and no filters enabled in any channel. For channel setup within MSO, use a shared sub delay that's allowed to go from -20 msec to +20 msec (representing the AVR's distance setting), and put an individual delay in one sub channel that's allowed to go from -7.5 msec to +7.5 msec. If the latter comes out negative, you'll use the "Normalize delays" function to switch the delay to the other channel, making it positive.
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post #317 of 777 Old 09-01-2016, 09:17 PM
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Hello All,

How many subs are supported with MSO? I am about to install a total of 6 subs and control them with a Symetrix DSP. I have about 7 listening position I want to optimize for.
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post #318 of 777 Old 09-01-2016, 09:49 PM
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How many subs are supported with MSO? I am about to install a total of 6 subs and control them with a Symetrix DSP. I have about 7 listening position I want to optimize for.
There is no limit in the software regarding the number of subs or listening positions. From a practical perspective, the limit is determined by the time you allow the optimization to run, which must become longer and longer the more subs and listening positions you have, and the more PEQs per channel (per sub) you add.
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post #319 of 777 Old 09-02-2016, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
Didn't you end up having to use Pure Direct mode in your receiver in order to get the measurements to work correctly? I seem to remember that you initially had problems with the acoustic timing reference signal not coming out of the center speaker as it should. This is the post I was thinking of, and also this one. Doesn't Pure Direct disable the MCACC? If so, have you found a way to do the measurements so that the acoustic timing reference works right and the effects of MCACC are included?

Other than that, I'd recommend just setting the phase control of both your subs to zero before doing the measurements, as having a non-zero value just adds more potential for error. The individual delays calculated by MSO and implemented in the miniDSP serve the same function. You'll also want to reset the miniDSP so there's no delay, no attenuation, and no filters enabled in any channel. For channel setup within MSO, use a shared sub delay that's allowed to go from -20 msec to +20 msec (representing the AVR's distance setting), and put an individual delay in one sub channel that's allowed to go from -7.5 msec to +7.5 msec. If the latter comes out negative, you'll use the "Normalize delays" function to switch the delay to the other channel, making it positive.
Andy, I've attached my latest measurements which are based on the setup as follows; The AVR set to Pure Direct after running the MCACC PRO ( to make use of the levels settings and distances detected only). The two SVS Subs were both set to Zero degrees of Phase with the crossover fully opened. The MiniDSP was also reset with all parameter zeroed out and bypassed.

I'm am going to import this info into the latest version of your MSO program, but I would greatly appreciate if you did the same and shared your results. Since I don't have a need to run the program often, I'm always fearful of not running it correctly.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Wellz Sept 2 REW Measurements.zip (58.4 KB, 21 views)

HT Room: 18'x13'x7.5' with 2 rows of seating.
Pioneer SC-99 & Audiosource AD1002 for Atmos & DTS:X 7.2.4
Andrew Jones Pioneer Elite SP-EFS73 Mains , SP-EC73 Center, SP-EBS73-LR Rear Surrounds, SP-BS41-LR Side Surrounds & Dual SVS SB12-NSD Subs with MiniDSP 2x4 Tuned with REW and MSO.
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post #320 of 777 Old 09-03-2016, 06:49 AM
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I'm am going to import this info into the latest version of your MSO program, but I would greatly appreciate if you did the same and shared your results. Since I don't have a need to run the program often, I'm always fearful of not running it correctly.
I'd be happy to walk you through the steps of setting up your project, but I won't set up the project for you. The Overview of Use lists the steps in a numbered list. I've made some changes to it for you, so these changes aren't in the current .CHM help file. The changes add links to the appropriate pages in the tutorial where it makes sense. You'll start with step 5, "Import the text files into MSO". Click on the "Instructions: tutorial" link in each list item for details.
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post #321 of 777 Old 09-03-2016, 07:43 AM
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I'd be happy to walk you through the steps of setting up your project, but I won't set up the project for you. The Overview of Use lists the steps in a numbered list. I've made some changes to it for you, so these changes aren't in the current .CHM help file. The changes add links to the appropriate pages in the tutorial where it makes sense. You'll start with step 5, "Import the text files into MSO". Click on the "Instructions: tutorial" link in each list item for details.
ok thanks. Quick question since your update, I see that one could choose to optimize the subs with the mains or just the subs alone. what is the difference between the two? I thought the goal was to have the subs align/integrate properly with the rest of the speakers. what does just optimizing the subs do if they aren't integrated? Maybe I'm missing something.. forgive my ignorance.

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Last edited by welldun; 09-03-2016 at 07:48 AM.
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post #322 of 777 Old 09-03-2016, 08:15 AM
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ok thanks. Quick question since your update, I see that one could choose to optimize the subs with the mains or just the subs alone. what is the difference between the two? I thought the goal was to have the subs align/integrate properly with the rest of the speakers. what does just optimizing the subs do if they aren't integrated? Maybe I'm missing something.. forgive my ignorance.
That feature was in response to a feature request from some time ago, and relates to how commercial room correction software works. Suppose you were to use MSO to optimize both mains and subs. Doing that will reduce the seat-to-seat response variation of the subs, while also optimizing the integration of mains and subs. Now suppose that after this, you run a commercial room correction system. These systems try to optimize main speakers by themselves and subs by themselves. Their method of trying to integrate mains and subs is usually sub-par, and results in the user having to tweak the sub distance and maybe the sub level too. So in general, using MSO to integrate mains and subs makes little sense if you are going to run a commercial room correction system afterwards, because these systems will undo the integration work done by MSO. And yet the idea of reducing the seat-to-seat variation of the subs' frequency response still has merit. So the method of using MSO to optimize the flatness and seat-to-seat variation of only the subs (sub-only configurations) can be used if you are going to run a commercial room correction system afterward.

I still have some unanswered questions about this myself. I wonder what people who use this feature do for integration after running e.g. Dirac. Do they re-measure and use MSO for integration as a final step, or do they just do a quick manual tweak of sub distance and level afterward? I don't know.
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post #323 of 777 Old 09-03-2016, 11:17 AM
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If I may give my use for this feature:-

Ultimately I will run MSO as the final step in integrating my mains & subs, but I don't want Audyssey (in my case) attempting to do too much correction on the RAW sub response - as it is pretty awful.

So I measure the subs in isolation and let MSO combine and optimise the response of all three into a single miniDSP EQ'd channel.

Then I run Aud Pro - and it hears an almost perfect single subwoofer channel - so it applies very little correction.
However, the mains to sub splice is still not ideal.

Now I measure the 'corrected' mains, along with the un-EQ'd subs (all three individually, miniDSP EQ off) and now I let MSO optimise the three subs with the mains as the reference - so the subs response and splice is now optimised as a whole.

Long winded, but I'm more than happy with the final result.

P.S. sometimes I leave MSO running overnight - and the results can be spectacular
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post #324 of 777 Old 09-03-2016, 11:55 AM
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Andy I'm reviewing some of the older MSO runs that you helped me with and was wondering about the polarity inversion that was used for the Meza_BIL file which uses two sub like mine. Yet on the few that you did for my own setup don't have that filter included. How does one decide when to use that filter or not?

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post #325 of 777 Old 09-03-2016, 12:46 PM
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Andy,

I the graph feature is acting odd on my windows 10 pc (same one ive been using from the start). nothing is showing up.

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post #326 of 777 Old 09-03-2016, 01:28 PM
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I the graph feature is acting odd on my windows 10 pc (same one ive been using from the start). nothing is showing up.
You'll need to be much more specific than this, maybe attach a project or a screen shot of what you're talking about or both.
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post #327 of 777 Old 09-03-2016, 03:07 PM
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Andy I'm reviewing some of the older MSO runs that you helped me with and was wondering about the polarity inversion that was used for the Meza_BIL file which uses two sub like mine. Yet on the few that you did for my own setup don't have that filter included. How does one decide when to use that filter or not?
It needs to be determined mainly by experimentation. If you play with a shared sub delay by hand with MSO to get the best splice of mains and subs at the crossover frequency, and end up with an overall response that has a periodic ripple vs. frequency (alternating rounded peaks and sharp dips), this is a sign that you may want to try a polarity inversion.

The underlying cause of this is some AVR crossover implementations. If they are of the second-order Linkwitz-Riley type, they require a polarity inversion of the subs, or a suckout will occur at the crossover frequency. Fourth-order Linkwitz-Riley crossovers don't have this problem. The "THX style" crossovers don't do this either. Those consist of a second-order Butterworth high-pass filter for the main speakers and a fourth-order Linkwitz-Riley low-pass filter for the subs.

If your AVR has a second-order LR crossover and you try to fix the suckout at the crossover frequency using delay, that's when the periodic ripple mentioned above shows up. All this is a function of the AVR only, so the likelihood that you'd not need the inversion in a previous run and need it in a later one is very remote.
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post #328 of 777 Old 09-03-2016, 07:01 PM
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You'll need to be much more specific than this, maybe attach a project or a screen shot of what you're talking about or both.
here is a screen capture of the black graph that I get. maybe I'm doing something wrong...?
Attached Thumbnails
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Name:	wellz screen capture of blank graph.PNG
Views:	44
Size:	99.8 KB
ID:	1640193  

HT Room: 18'x13'x7.5' with 2 rows of seating.
Pioneer SC-99 & Audiosource AD1002 for Atmos & DTS:X 7.2.4
Andrew Jones Pioneer Elite SP-EFS73 Mains , SP-EC73 Center, SP-EBS73-LR Rear Surrounds, SP-BS41-LR Side Surrounds & Dual SVS SB12-NSD Subs with MiniDSP 2x4 Tuned with REW and MSO.
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post #329 of 777 Old 09-03-2016, 07:10 PM
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Here the project that I got that from...
Attached Files
File Type: zip Wellz sept 2.zip (103.7 KB, 18 views)
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HT Room: 18'x13'x7.5' with 2 rows of seating.
Pioneer SC-99 & Audiosource AD1002 for Atmos & DTS:X 7.2.4
Andrew Jones Pioneer Elite SP-EFS73 Mains , SP-EC73 Center, SP-EBS73-LR Rear Surrounds, SP-BS41-LR Side Surrounds & Dual SVS SB12-NSD Subs with MiniDSP 2x4 Tuned with REW and MSO.
ELite Screens Edge Free Aeon Series 100 inch Cinewhite Screen & Epson 5040UB Projector.
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post #330 of 777 Old 09-03-2016, 07:26 PM
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Your "Wellz sept 2" configuration has no measurements associated with the two sub channels, and when I try to plot its measurement groups, I do get an empty graph. Your "Wellz sept 2 clone" configuration does have the measurement associations in the sub channels, and the graph looks okay when I add only measurement groups from that configuration.

I'll have a look at error handling when measurement groups have measurements that aren't associated with a filter channel. I'll disallow such measurements from being added to measurement groups for starters.

Last edited by andyc56; 09-03-2016 at 08:03 PM.
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