Optimizing subwoofers and integration with mains: multi sub optimizer - Page 24 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #691 of 777 Old 07-13-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Does MSO improve the time domain...
It can, but it's not guaranteed to do so. Some of the things that can trip it up in this regard include:
  • allowing excessive delays for some subs
  • reversing the polarity of some subs but not others
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post #692 of 777 Old 07-13-2017, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by wpbpete View Post
So first dumb question, do I have to clear everything and start with MSO?
Yes. Clear out all the filters from the miniDSP 2x4 and set its delays and attenuations to zero. When you run MSO, you'll get a text file with biquad coefficients for each channel of the miniDSP 2x4.

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What's the appropriate sequence ie: Mcacc>MSO>2x4>Dirac?
If you're using Dirac, MCACC should not be used. So it's MSO->load filters into 2x4->Dirac.

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Also I'm confused over which one to run, Subs and Mains or Subs only. What's the criteria for this choice?
tia
Generally, if you're running Dirac, use subs only with MSO.
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post #693 of 777 Old 07-13-2017, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
Yes. Clear out all the filters from the miniDSP 2x4 and set its delays and attenuations to zero. When you run MSO, you'll get a text file with biquad coefficients for each channel of the miniDSP 2x4.



If you're using Dirac, MCACC should not be used. So it's MSO->load filters into 2x4->Dirac.



Generally, if you're running Dirac, use subs only with MSO.
Thanks Andy, shouldn't I run MCACC to set distance, crossover etc...
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post #694 of 777 Old 07-13-2017, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by wpbpete View Post
Thanks Andy, shouldn't I run MCACC to set distance, crossover etc...
Not Andy but I think I know the answer to this question. No need to run MCACC ( I assume its room correction system?). Set distance of your subs in avr to 0. Don't set crossover either. If you set a crossover of say 80 Hz, then REW will take reading up to 80Hz only for your sub. You don't want that. You want to get full range of your sub. So if you sub goes up to say 300Hz (depending on room), and later you decide to set crossover to 100, you don't really need correction after 200Hz. For that, MSO provides Criteria to restrict the correction where you can define minimum/maximum range. So
1 - Set distance in sub to 0
2 - Take full range reading of sub in REW.
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post #695 of 777 Old 07-13-2017, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
It can, but it's not guaranteed to do so. Some of the things that can trip it up in this regard include:
  • allowing excessive delays for some subs
  • reversing the polarity of some subs but not others
I have played a lot with MSO in the last few days and what I discovered is that if I give it full freedom (no constrains on Gain/Delay), it can go wild. So now when I run the optimizer, I set Min/Max on Delay/Gain to a restrictive number and to my surprise, it still does a hell of a job giving me a flat response up to 170Hz.

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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
Yes. Clear out all the filters from the miniDSP 2x4 and set its delays and attenuations to zero.
As mention above, what I have discovered is that MSO can set some very random Delays. I have 4 subs. 2 of them are furthest away and are at equal distance from MLP but are on Two sides of room. When I have a Min/Max of -15/15 for delay, MSO ended up setting delay for one of the sub to around 9. That's a huge difference. So now what I do is measure the distance manually and set then in minidsp before taking any reading. Then don't add delay block with a constrain of 1 +/-. This assures that I don't get very different delays.

I was a bit surprised by MSO not figuring out the delays. All readings are with timing reference included so it has all the info to determine how far subs are IMHO.
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post #696 of 777 Old 07-13-2017, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Not Andy but I think I know the answer to this question. No need to run MCACC ( I assume its room correction system?). Set distance of your subs in avr to 0. Don't set crossover either. If you set a crossover of say 80 Hz, then REW will take reading up to 80Hz only for your sub. You don't want that. You want to get full range of your sub. So if you sub goes up to say 300Hz (depending on room), and later you decide to set crossover to 100, you don't really need correction after 200Hz. For that, MSO provides Criteria to restrict the correction where you can define minimum/maximum range. So
1 - Set distance in sub to 0
2 - Take full range reading of sub in REW.
Awesome, that makes a lot of sense. I thought I read in a post that you had to set relative distances and then MSO would fine tune them. So just to clarify, I have to bypass the avr all together, so no bass management etc...
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post #697 of 777 Old 07-13-2017, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpbpete View Post
Awesome, that makes a lot of sense. I thought I read in a post that you had to set relative distances and then MSO would fine tune them. So just to clarify, I have to bypass the avr all together, so no bass management etc...
I had a look at the nanoAVR-DL documentation. Unless it's used with a nanoAVR-HD in front of it to do bass management, it does Dirac ahead of the AVR's bass management, which in general is wrong. In section 4.3.1 of the nanoAVR-DL manual it says:

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4.3.1 Speaker distance (delay)
Set the speaker distance (or equivalently, delays) in your AVR using the procedure recommended by your AVR manufacturer. While Dirac Live calculates the relative delays between all channels and corrects for any differences, correct delays in the AVR are necessary for bass management to function correctly.
Pretty questionable IMO. Dirac needs to be done after bass management, not before. The discussion of which order room correction and bass management needs to be done is off-topic for the MSO thread though.
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post #698 of 777 Old 07-13-2017, 12:51 PM
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Thanks for looking that up for me, questionable indeed, maybe just a nanoAVR-DL use case.

I think I found the answer in your tut:
Quote:
It's Okay to Use HDMI Channel 4 (LFE) for Subwoofer Measurements When Using MSO to Optimize Subs Only

For sub-only optimization, using HDMI channel 4 is okay, as the 10 dB level increase of the LFE channel relative to the main speakers is not a problem when you're measuring only subs. When optimizing only subs, it's best to set the LPF of LFE to the highest allowable setting to get the flattest possible sub response up to the highest measurement frequency.
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post #699 of 777 Old 07-13-2017, 08:29 PM
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@andyc56 , any possibility of giving MSO a custom curve instead of getting flat? I use Dirac and define a custom curve. With the measurements, MSO ends up getting a perfectly flat FR across all my seats but when I set custom curve in Dirac, subs run out of air in Low (below 20 Hz). This I think is because MSO does a lot of cutting (saw Filter channel graphs after optimization) to flatten it out. Then Dirac is boosting 10dB so subs end up going through a lot. But if we could provide a custom curve, this too much of cutting/boosting wont happen.

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post #700 of 777 Old 07-13-2017, 08:30 PM
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So at the risk of repeating similar questions already asked, I hope someone can help me start the process off without me wasting too much time and effort:

I'm using a MiniDSP 10x10 HD / 48Khz plugin
Room has 5 subwoofer locations / several have multiple drivers co-located. All Velodyne SC / SPL-R units (same drivers / alignments).
AVR has 2 independent sub outs available (Yamaha 3060)

To start:

1) What AVR distances / delays / x-overs should I set? Obviously any EQ should be switched out.

2) Use 1 AVR sub out to a MiniDSP input, then map that input to needed outputs? Or use both AVR outs (using 2 MiniDSP inputs, mapped to several outputs per input?)

2) In measuring the "mains", the tutorial treats them as one - does this mean L/R was measured together (no center), and "mains" are treated as 1 channel / speaker? Though I wasn't intending to process the "mains" (only subs) maybe it makes sense to measure them as well? Is this REW measuring with Left and Right channels at the same time?

3) Should I set subwoofer amps crossover to disabled or something high (150hz?) I'm currently using 80hz x-overs on all channels based on woofer capability of satellites.

4) Run the REW measurements via the AVR with bass management enabled (using only the AVR x-over - with the sub amps x-over disabled / set high as mentioned above?) Seems I'd need to do it this way for proper delay etc... to be measured? Or should I set sub amps crossover just higher than the LP of the AVR (say 100, since AVR is 80)?

I'm in need of serious hand-holding, but this looks like an awesome way to improve my setup if I can just manage to learn a little about it.

Thanks for any help or advice
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post #701 of 777 Old 07-14-2017, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
So at the risk of repeating similar questions already asked, I hope someone can help me start the process off without me wasting too much time and effort:

I'm using a MiniDSP 10x10 HD / 48Khz plugin
Room has 5 subwoofer locations / several have multiple drivers co-located. All Velodyne SC / SPL-R units (same drivers / alignments).
AVR has 2 independent sub outs available (Yamaha 3060)
I am going to start by taking just a few of these questions at a time, because answering all of them thoroughly at once would be lengthy.

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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
2) Use 1 AVR sub out to a MiniDSP input, then map that input to needed outputs? Or use both AVR outs (using 2 MiniDSP inputs, mapped to several outputs per input?)
MSO doesn't support 2 independent AVR sub outs. Try to avoid using the AVR that way if it's at all possible. If you absolutely must, I can give you some hints of how to do it, but I'd rather avoid that if at all possible.

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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
3) Should I set subwoofer amps crossover to disabled or something high (150hz?) I'm currently using 80hz x-overs on all channels based on woofer capability of satellites.

4) Run the REW measurements via the AVR with bass management enabled (using only the AVR x-over - with the sub amps x-over disabled / set high as mentioned above?) Seems I'd need to do it this way for proper delay etc... to be measured? Or should I set sub amps crossover just higher than the LP of the AVR (say 100, since AVR is 80)?
You'll need to decide whether you are going to use sub-only configurations in MSO, or if you are going to use it to integrate mains and subs. Sub-only configurations flatten out the sub responses at multiple listening positions, but don't attempt to integrate the main speakers and subs. These are generally used when you are going to run your AVR or third-party room correction system's measurement/correction procedure after using MSO. For such configurations, measurements for MSO are easiest, because you can apply the measurement signal to the LFE channel without needing to go through the AVR's bass management. For such measurements, set the "LPF of LFE" in your AVR to its highest setting. If your AVR does not have an independent "LPF of LFE", set the crossover frequency to its highest setting. For sub-only configurations, the AVR distance settings don't matter. When you use sub-only configurations, integration of main speakers and subs has to be done some other way.

When using MSO to integrate main speakers and subs, you'll need to determine your speaker distances first via your AVR's calibration procedure, or other procedure such as physical distance measurement. These of course need to be set prior to doing measurements for MSO. Record the distances for later reference. The measurement technique becomes messier, and is described in detail in the MSO documentation. If you run your AVR or a third-party room correction algorithm later, it will invalidate the sub-satellite integration established by MSO, so this technique is only useful when you're not doing any room correction.

You'll need to determine how many unique sub positions you have, and that will be the same as the number of sub channels in MSO. For instance, if you have 8 subs, two each stacked in each of the room's 4 corners, that's 4 subs for the purpose of MSO. Multiple stacked subs or multiple adjacent subs count as a single sub in MSO.

For the subwoofers themselves, disable their internal crossover if you can, and if you can't, set the crossover frequency as high as it will go.
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post #702 of 777 Old 07-14-2017, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
2) In measuring the "mains", the tutorial treats them as one - does this mean L/R was measured together (no center), and "mains" are treated as 1 channel / speaker? Though I wasn't intending to process the "mains" (only subs) maybe it makes sense to measure them as well? Is this REW measuring with Left and Right channels at the same time?
The tutorial data were taken by Jag768 back in the day when using a USB mic was disallowed in MSO. Back then, MSO required an analog mic with a physical loop-back connection to get time-synchronized measurements. Measurements were usually done via an AVR analog input, so both left and right channels of the AVR could be energized simultaneously, while still allowing for a loop-back connection, by using a y-cable on the main stimulus signal. Later, John Mulcahy came up with the acoustic timing reference feature for REW. This allows MSO to be used with USB mics. Using this technique, one output channel of the sound device is used for the main signal and the other for the acoustic timing reference. This means that, when a digital stimulus is applied, you can only apply the main measurement stimulus to one AVR channel at a time, with the other being the acoustic timing reference. In this situation, if you want to integrate L+R with the subs, you need to measure L and R separately. Another choice is to integrate center channel and subs. Which one you choose might depend on whether music or movies are more important to you.

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post #703 of 777 Old 07-14-2017, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
Sub-only configurations flatten out the sub responses at multiple listening positions, but don't attempt to integrate the main speakers and subs. These are generally used when you are going to run your AVR or third-party room correction system's measurement/correction procedure after using MSO. For such configurations, measurements for MSO are easiest, because you can apply the measurement signal to the LFE channel without needing to go through the AVR's bass management. For such measurements, set the "LPF of LFE" in your AVR to its highest setting. If your AVR does not have an independent "LPF of LFE", set the crossover frequency to its highest setting. For sub-only configurations, the AVR distance settings don't matter. When you use sub-only configurations, integration of main speakers and subs has to be done some other way.
Sort of rhetorical, but if I were certain I wouldn't ask ...

For AVR/pre-pros with direct 5.1/7.1-channel inputs, the subwoofer input can be used bypassing bass management completely ... ? Can that be used if analog? Can the test signal be inputted on the .1 channel of an HDMI input?

Jeff

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post #704 of 777 Old 07-14-2017, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Sort of rhetorical, but if I were certain I wouldn't ask ...

For AVR/pre-pros with direct 5.1/7.1-channel inputs, the subwoofer input can be used bypassing bass management completely ... ? Can that be used if analog? Can the test signal be inputted on the .1 channel of an HDMI input?
When doing measurements that will only be used in sub-only configurations, it's okay to apply the signal to the ".1" LFE channel. The docs talk about this in connection with HDMI channel 4, and the same thing applies with a ".1" analog LFE input as well.
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post #705 of 777 Old 07-14-2017, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
I am going to start by taking just a few of these questions at a time, because answering all of them thoroughly at once would be lengthy.

You'll need to decide whether you are going to use sub-only configurations in MSO, or if you are going to use it to integrate mains and subs. Sub-only configurations flatten out the sub responses at multiple listening positions, but don't attempt to integrate the main speakers and subs. These are generally used when you are going to run your AVR or third-party room correction system's measurement/correction procedure after using MSO. For such configurations, measurements for MSO are easiest, because you can apply the measurement signal to the LFE channel without needing to go through the AVR's bass management. For such measurements, set the "LPF of LFE" in your AVR to its highest setting. If your AVR does not have an independent "LPF of LFE", set the crossover frequency to its highest setting. For sub-only configurations, the AVR distance settings don't matter. When you use sub-only configurations, integration of main speakers and subs has to be done some other way.

When using MSO to integrate main speakers and subs, you'll need to determine your speaker distances first via your AVR's calibration procedure, or other procedure such as physical distance measurement. These of course need to be set prior to doing measurements for MSO. Record the distances for later reference. The measurement technique becomes messier, and is described in detail in the MSO documentation. If you run your AVR or a third-party room correction algorithm later, it will invalidate the sub-satellite integration established by MSO, so this technique is only useful when you're not doing any room correction.

You'll need to determine how many unique sub positions you have, and that will be the same as the number of sub channels in MSO. For instance, if you have 8 subs, two each stacked in each of the room's 4 corners, that's 4 subs for the purpose of MSO. Multiple stacked subs or multiple adjacent subs count as a single sub in MSO.

For the subwoofers themselves, disable their internal crossover if you can, and if you can't, set the crossover frequency as high as it will go.
Great - So I think I'm getting a clearer picture.

1) I will go the subwoofer only route, allowing YPAO to do it's thing afterwards regarding sub / sat integration (or do something manually).

2) Some of my subs are 180 and some (all but 2) are 0 phase. It's pretty easy to tell which is "right" by ear. Should I leave them 180 and 0 or set them all to 0 and let MSO tell me which ones are wrong (then change them with wiring / phase control / minidsp check box)

3) Even if I intend to use 80hz as the sat / sub x-over point, done by the AVR, should I temporarily set it higher for MSO (say 150hz) and then set it back to 80hz after MSO has completed and it's changes are programmed into MiniDSP??? Still a little unclear on what you can change after setting MSO up. Certainly not the sub locations, the seating locations - that much I understand.

* I think I still need to let the AVR "make" the LFE signal that feeds the MiniDSP, since I have to let REW output it's signals via HDMI. Someone mentioned not including the AVR at all in the process, but I think I will need to unless I'm missing an advantage to somehow feeding the signal directly into the input of the MiniDSP (which feeds the subs). I'd for sure have to use an analog signal and have no idea if its response is flat.

4) So the "distance" figure in the AVR for the subs is not relevant to MSO - I'll set it (or YPAO will) later after MSOs magic is programmed into MiniDSP?

5) Appropriate "Biquad limit" figure when using the MiniDSP 10x10 HD is what?

Hoping to run my first measurements over the weekend.

Thanks for taking so much time to help - incredibly generous of you. Thanks!

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post #706 of 777 Old 07-14-2017, 01:58 PM
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A general UMIK-1 question:

I've had mine a few years and never really used it. Has a printed page that came with it showing serial number and response variation at certain frequencies. I guess it is a hard copy of the correction curve.

However, when I download the correction curve, it looks to have different values than the printed one. I assume the online / downloaded one is the one to go with?

Also, is the 90 degree correction file the better one to use for sub measurements, and this assumes it is ceiling pointed at each of the listening locations?

Thanks!
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post #707 of 777 Old 07-14-2017, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
1) I will go the subwoofer only route, allowing YPAO to do it's thing afterwards regarding sub / sat integration (or do something manually).
You may need to do something above and beyond what YPAO does to get optimum integration. We can talk about that more when the time comes.

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2) Some of my subs are 180 and some (all but 2) are 0 phase. It's pretty easy to tell which is "right" by ear. Should I leave them 180 and 0 or set them all to 0 and let MSO tell me which ones are wrong (then change them with wiring / phase control / minidsp check box)
Unfortunately, MSO doesn't detect individual sub polarity, nor does it adjust sub polarity automatically for you. MSO only does continuous adjustment of parameter values. Discrete changes like polarity reversals require a so-called combinatorial optimizer. MSO uses an optimizer of the continuous type.

Set all your polarity controls to 0 on the subs and in the miniDSP. You can check polarity of each sub using the impulse response in REW.

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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
3) Even if I intend to use 80hz as the sat / sub x-over point, done by the AVR, should I temporarily set it higher for MSO (say 150hz) and then set it back to 80hz after MSO has completed and it's changes are programmed into MiniDSP??? Still a little unclear on what you can change after setting MSO up. Certainly not the sub locations, the seating locations - that much I understand.
Yes, set it as high as it will go, both in the subs themselves and the AVR.

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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
* I think I still need to let the AVR "make" the LFE signal that feeds the MiniDSP, since I have to let REW output it's signals via HDMI. Someone mentioned not including the AVR at all in the process, but I think I will need to unless I'm missing an advantage to somehow feeding the signal directly into the input of the MiniDSP (which feeds the subs). I'd for sure have to use an analog signal and have no idea if its response is flat.
The signal path is:
Computer HDMI out -> AVR HDMI in -> AVR sub out -> miniDSP -> sub -> UMIK -> computer USB port
Use AustinJerry's guide that I linked for you in the thread in the DIY forum.

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Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
4) So the "distance" figure in the AVR for the subs is not relevant to MSO - I'll set it (or YPAO will) later after MSOs magic is programmed into MiniDSP?
It is only relevant when you use "sub+main" configurations in MSO to integrate mains and subs. For "sub-only" configurations, AVR sub distance is not important.

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Hoping to run my first measurements over the weekend.
Again, follow AustinJerry's guide for this. He's a really good writer and has refined the guide over a considerable period of time. Make sure you get the latest beta of REW. You'll need to sign up at the so-called "AV Nirvana" forum to get it. You'll need to use the "acoustic timing reference" of REW when doing measurements.

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Thanks for taking so much time to help - incredibly generous of you. Thanks!
You're welcome!
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post #708 of 777 Old 07-14-2017, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
A general UMIK-1 question:

I've had mine a few years and never really used it. Has a printed page that came with it showing serial number and response variation at certain frequencies. I guess it is a hard copy of the correction curve.

However, when I download the correction curve, it looks to have different values than the printed one. I assume the online / downloaded one is the one to go with?

Also, is the 90 degree correction file the better one to use for sub measurements, and this assumes it is ceiling pointed at each of the listening locations?
I'm not sure about the conflict in data. I'd suggest you use the 90 degree file, latest version, as you'll be pointing the mic straight up on its stand. If you don't have a stand, you'll need to get one at a music store. All of this should be in AustinJerry's guide.

Edit: Also check out the big REW thread.

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post #709 of 777 Old 07-14-2017, 03:19 PM
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Please take a look at my results, this is 4 Subs at 5 positions.

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My biggest concern, the avr is at 0 and it wants a 10db increase

Final gain and delay/distance settings:
Complete gain settings for SPL target of 75 dB (optional):
Increase AVR sub out trim gain by 10 dB
Sub Channel 1 gain: 0.00 dB
Sub Channel 2 gain: -8.61 dB
Sub Channel 3 gain: -0.87 dB
Sub Channel 4 gain: -1.48 dB
Minimal gain settings, neglecting SPL target:

Last edited by wpbpete; 07-14-2017 at 05:57 PM.
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post #710 of 777 Old 07-14-2017, 07:37 PM
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I'd suggest posting your project as a .zip file. One thing I see is that your measurement groups are set up incorrectly. A measurement group corresponds to a listening position, so the data in a measurement group will be all subs at a given position, not all positions for a given sub. For measurement associations with a given channel, it's all positions for the sub that's on that channel.

Edit: So you will have 5 measurement groups, called e.g. Pos 1, Pos 2, Pos 3, Pos 4 and Pos 5. Each of the groups will consist of 4 measurements (the 4 subs whose outputs add up to the total response at that position).

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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
I'd suggest posting your project as a .zip file. One thing I see is that your measurement groups are set up incorrectly. A measurement group corresponds to a listening position, so the data in a measurement group will be all subs at a given position, not all positions for a given sub. For measurement associations with a given channel, it's all positions for the sub that's on that channel.

Edit: So you will have 5 measurement groups, called e.g. Pos 1, Pos 2, Pos 3, Pos 4 and Pos 5. Each of the groups will consist of 4 measurements (the 4 subs whose outputs add up to the total response at that position).
Here is the corrected graph and the zip. That null at 55-65 looks better and 102 is gone altogether. The avr gain is down to 8.5 which I can do on the 2x4 by raising the input gain
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MSO Best flat Opt.zip
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Originally Posted by wpbpete View Post
Here is the corrected graph and the zip. That null at 55-65 looks better and 102 is gone altogether. The avr gain is down to 8.5 which I can do on the 2x4 by raising the input gain
I'll have a more detailed look tomorrow.

Implementing gain ought to be done in the analog domain via the AVR's sub trim if you can.

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Loaded that last set of filters, sounds good across the seating area. Tomorrow I will run Dirac, hopefully it'll smooth things out a bit more. Tried to smooth out the suckout above 50hz but had no luck with REW, this is the best I can get it. Probably need another sub or 2 behind the LP, too bad I have no space for one. At least it's consistent with all the subs at all positions, obviously a room problem.

Regarding the gain, I had the 4x2 input gain at -7.5 so I just raised it to 0 and left the avr at 0 that should avoid clipping on either one.

Edit: If I decide to try Dirac before BM, should I then re-run all the measurements post Dirac?
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Loaded that last set of filters, sounds good across the seating area. Tomorrow I will run Dirac, hopefully it'll smooth things out a bit more. Tried to smooth out the suckout above 50hz but had no luck with REW, this is the best I can get it. Probably need another sub or 2 behind the LP, too bad I have no space for one. At least it's consistent with all the subs at all positions, obviously a room problem.

Regarding the gain, I had the 4x2 input gain at -7.5 so I just raised it to 0 and left the avr at 0 that should avoid clipping on either one.
I tried your project with 6 PEQs per channel, even ran it for several hours while I was doing something else, but couldn't get results better than what you had.

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Edit: If I decide to try Dirac before BM, should I then re-run all the measurements post Dirac?
No need to run the full set of MSO measurements again that I can see, but you may want to look at the MLP with all subs running at once, and tweak the integration of main speakers and subs in the crossover region.
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@andyc56 , hope I'll get the response . I was wondering if there is a possibility to include the feature to import a curve. So, instead of flatting out the graph from say 10-150Hz, what if we could import a House Curve and MSO then sets FR according the curve. Would be great to import from REW/Dirac. Dirac provies a text file with Target info (a simple two columns info).

Another Question: I first set Mic at MLP and took each sub reading and phased aligned them properly. Then took all the readings. In MSO, when I don't add delay vs adding delay to filters, I get better result with Delay included. Question is that if I took all the readings with phase/delay properly Aligned to MLP, should delay be included in MSO? Please note that when I add Delay to MSO, it gives MUCH better result.

Thx.

Last edited by harrisu; 07-16-2017 at 12:06 PM.
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
@andyc56 , hope I'll get the response . I was wondering if there is a possibility to include the feature to import a curve. So, instead of flatting out the graph from say 10-150Hz, what if we could import a House Curve and MSO then sets FR according the curve. Would be great to import from REW/Dirac. Dirac provies a text file with Target info (a simple two columns info).
It's already there. It supports the same two-column text format used by REW. I think it also works with .frd files and just ignores the phase. You can also make a dummy config and create a dummy filter channel with, say, a shelving filter and save its frequency response as a .frd, which you can then import as a target curve. Importing is done in Optimization Options, Target Curve. By default it will do piece-wise linear interpolation between points (which can be on a linear or logarithmic frequency scale), or you can choose cubic spline interpolation between points, providing a smooth curve between them. At present, there is only one target curve allowed per configuration. These curves are also bona fide trace types, so you can put them on a graph. You'll usually want to offset them in the graph trace dialog, as they get internally normalized to 0 dB at the highest frequency.

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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Another Question: I first set Mic at MLP and took each sub reading and phased aligned them properly. Then took all the readings. In MSO, when I don't add delay vs adding delay to filters, I get better result with Delay included. Question is that if I took all the readings with phase/delay properly Aligned to MLP, should delay be included in MSO? Please note that when I add Delay to MSO, it gives MUCH better result.
The MSO parameter values for delay, gain, etc. represent changes from the as-measured condition. So if you set the delay of a miniDSP channel to, say, 5 msec before doing the measurement, then have a delay in MSO of -2 msec, the final value entered into the miniDSP should be 5 msec - 2 msec = 3 msec. It's easier to always just do the measurements with the miniDSP delays set to 0 and just account for all delay in MSO so you don't have to do any more calculations and bookkeeping than necessary.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
It's already there. It supports the same two-column text format used by REW. I think it also works with .frd files and just ignores the phase. You can also make a dummy config and create a dummy filter channel with, say, a shelving filter and save its frequency response as a .frd, which you can then import as a target curve. Importing is done in Optimization Options, Target Curve. By default it will do piece-wise linear interpolation between points (which can be on a linear or logarithmic frequency scale), or you can choose cubic spline interpolation between points, providing a smooth curve between them. At present, there is only one target curve allowed per configuration. These curves are also bona fide trace types, so you can put them on a graph. You'll usually want to offset them in the graph trace dialog, as they get internally normalized to 0 dB at the highest frequency.
Awesome. Will Dirac Target file work? Here is how it looks like
Quote:
# Generated by Dirac Live Calibration Tool V1.2.1 (Build 8426)
BREAKPOINTS
25 0
30 0
50 0
60 -0.499998
70 -1.5
80 -2.75
90 -3.75
105 -5
125 -6.5
150 -8
190 -9.5
HPSLOPEON
0
LPSLOPEON
1
HPCUTOFF
20
LPCUTOFF
400
HPORDER
8
LPORDER
4
LOWLIMITHZ
20
HIGHLIMITHZ
200
The MSO parameter values for delay, gain, etc. represent changes from the as-measured condition. So if you set the delay of a miniDSP channel to, say, 5 msec before doing the measurement, then have a delay in MSO of -2 msec, the final value entered into the miniDSP should be 5 msec - 2 msec = 3 msec. It's easier to always just do the measurements with the miniDSP delays set to 0 and just account for all delay in MSO so you don't have to do any more calculations and bookkeeping than necessary.[/QUOTE]

Perfect. This is exactly what I did. After adjusting Delay and importing channels, I took reading reading at MLP. All four channels didn't 100% phased alighed. But I think its not that important as long as the subs cannot be located while listening?
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Been working up my data and getting familiar with MSO.

When exporting the biquad .txt files from MSO into the MiniDsp, I noticed that in MiniDSP app I had to select "Sub Eq" as a type in the PEQ pane, then back to "Peak" in order for a "Biquad" option to show up (which then triggers the Import .txt dialog. Then all was good. Not sure if this is normal, but if anybody is having an issue this might work for them.

So the EQ curves imported with the biquad option appeared to be correct, and the MiniDSP took it fine.

I had set up MSO for having 10 biquads in the "hardware setup" pane (as MiniDSP mentions), but it appears in the PEQ pane of MiniDSP (once you select "sub eq", then "peak" - see above...) that there are only 6 biquad PEQ positions.

It took my measurements (or seemed to anyway) just fine. Maybe because I only had 4 PEQ filters (on each of 6 channels) in my config - don't know.

But what was odd is that when I got to the manual entry items (Delay, Gain in my case) to put into the MiniDSP app, I noticed that the Delay and Gain filters I had setup for several channels were now gone??

So I went back to my config and they weren't showing there (I know they were there, as I set up one channel and then used "paste filters" to the rest).

Tried adding "delay" to the channels where it was gone (2 of 6 channels had it missing I think) and "Delay" was greyed out and I couldn't add one. If I tried to paste a delay from another channel, I get the error / info message that "couldn't paste - redundant delay filter" or something to that effect, but I couldn't see one. Also had this issue with "gain" on at least one channel, but when I went back and deleted all filters to start over, I was able to add a "Gain" for each one, and a "Delay" for all but 1 of the 6. Didn't seem to matter which, but couldn't put a delay on all 6. Hopefully the one without will be a "reference" for the others and doesn't actually need one??

Not sure what's going on here. FYI, it's a sub only config, 6 channels, 6 listening positions, all channels have the same filters - 4 PEQ plus Gain and Delay (but can only get the delay on 5 of the 6...)

Thanks for any help!
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Awesome. Will Dirac Target file work? Here is how it looks like
You'll need to remove the stuff at the bottom, starting with HPSLOPEON. The function for reading the file looks at each line to see if it begins with a number (or + sign, - sign etc.) and if it does not, it's considered a comment line and ignored. The stuff at the bottom of the file has lines containing a single number, so that will mess it up, as it will interpret those lines as a frequency value with a missing dB value. So each line should either begin with non-numeric data, or if it is numeric data, it must be a frequency / dB value pair. Leading white space is ignored in any case.

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Perfect. This is exactly what I did. After adjusting Delay and importing channels, I took reading reading at MLP. All four channels didn't 100% phased alighed. But I think its not that important as long as the subs cannot be located while listening?
I'm not sure what you mean by "100% phase aligned". If you're referring to the technique in AustinJerry's guide that determines delays from the difference in distance to the MLP of the most distant sub and each other one under consideration, that calculation implicitly assumes that the relative phase difference vs. frequency due to this distance difference is determined only by the distance itself. But this is only true in an anechoic environment. In a modal regime, the same physical phenomena that mess up the amplitude responses of subs also affects their phase response. That may be the reason the calculated delays using that technique differ from what MSO comes up with. If you're worried about time domain performance, my suggestion is to not deviate too far from the delays calculated from distance, but I don't have a solid mathematical justification for that. Optimizing time domain performance would require something like what Markus suggested earlier, involving optimization of the excess group delay in addition to response flatness. That would involve huge changes, but I'm still considering it for some later time.
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post #720 of 777 Old 07-16-2017, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
Been working up my data and getting familiar with MSO.

When exporting the biquad .txt files from MSO into the MiniDsp, I noticed that in MiniDSP app I had to select "Sub Eq" as a type in the PEQ pane, then back to "Peak" in order for a "Biquad" option to show up (which then triggers the Import .txt dialog. Then all was good. Not sure if this is normal, but if anybody is having an issue this might work for them.

So the EQ curves imported with the biquad option appeared to be correct, and the MiniDSP took it fine.
I'm not sure exactly what you did, but you want to use the REW biquad file import feature as described on page 31 of the 10x10 manual ("Parametric EQ advanced mode" and "Parametric EQ file import (REW integration)"). Note that in the REW integration paragraph, it says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by miniDSP 10x10 manual
Multiple biquads in the parametric EQ block can be set at once by importing a coefficient file. This file can be generated by Room EQ Wizard (REW) or by other programs. Note that the design program must be set for a 48 kHz sample rate. The number of filters is limited to a maximum of six (in the 8x8 plugin, five for the 2x8 plugin).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
I had set up MSO for having 10 biquads in the "hardware setup" pane (as MiniDSP mentions), but it appears in the PEQ pane of MiniDSP (once you select "sub eq", then "peak" - see above...) that there are only 6 biquad PEQ positions.
You were apparently looking at the instructions for a different piece of hardware than what you have. The 10x10 manual says only 6 biquads are available. MSO puts out biquad files that are compatible with what REW puts out, so you'll use the same procedure as for REW integration (page 31 of the 10x10 manual). You'll need to reconfigure MSO to only allow 6 biquads per channel. Also make sure the sample rate is 48 kHz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
It took my measurements (or seemed to anyway) just fine. Maybe because I only had 4 PEQ filters (on each of 6 channels) in my config - don't know.

But what was odd is that when I got to the manual entry items (Delay, Gain in my case) to put into the MiniDSP app, I noticed that the Delay and Gain filters I had setup for several channels were now gone??

So I went back to my config and they weren't showing there (I know they were there, as I set up one channel and then used "paste filters" to the rest).

Tried adding "delay" to the channels where it was gone (2 of 6 channels had it missing I think) and "Delay" was greyed out and I couldn't add one. If I tried to paste a delay from another channel, I get the error / info message that "couldn't paste - redundant delay filter" or something to that effect, but I couldn't see one. Also had this issue with "gain" on at least one channel, but when I went back and deleted all filters to start over, I was able to add a "Gain" for each one, and a "Delay" for all but 1 of the 6. Didn't seem to matter which, but couldn't put a delay on all 6. Hopefully the one without will be a "reference" for the others and doesn't actually need one??
I'm not sure what happened. If you want me to look at it further, put the .msop project file into a zip file and upload it here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamjcl View Post
Not sure what's going on here. FYI, it's a sub only config, 6 channels, 6 listening positions, all channels have the same filters - 4 PEQ plus Gain and Delay (but can only get the delay on 5 of the 6...)
That's by design, to prevent convergence problems in the optimizer. Typically, you'll have no delay block in the channel that's associated with the sub that's most distant from the MLP, and delay blocks in all the others.
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