Optimizing subwoofers and integration with mains: multi sub optimizer - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 777 Old 06-23-2016, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by welldun View Post
Now some questions for you on the process that led to the results you posted...
1. you mentioned that for the first result you only used Gain and Delay, so those that mean that when you added filters you only added those two? Or was it that Optimizer didn't make use of the PEQ's that you may have also added to the filter list?
*I ask that because I automatically assumed that we needed to included 4 PEQ filters per subwoofer, to allow the Optimizer to more flexibility.
The project is in the zip file I posted in my previous post. It uses the "configurations" feature. There are three configurations: one called "Before optimization" that shows the raw data without modification. The second is called "Adj Delay & Gain", which uses only gain and delay blocks. The third is "PEQs Added", which adds the additional PEQ filters.

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Originally Posted by welldun View Post
2. based on the above, how do you decide which filters should be added?
In looking at your example prior to optimization, the MLP had a high-amplitude, periodic ripple vs frequency. That usually indicates that the sub delay is way off. So I wanted to see what only adjusting delay and gain could accomplish. You can see what I did by opening up the project and looking at the "Adj Delay & Gain" configuration. There isn't any formulaic answer to the question, but often just playing with delay and gain can give substantial improvements.

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3. I just downloaded and opened the file that I sent you this morning and I'm noticing that the final graph is not there. Originally I saved both pre and post Optimization files as you suggest in the tutorial, and attached them to my earlier post. I'm not sure why the results weren't included. I'll check for that when I get home.
The tutorial points out that the "configurations" feature is a better alternative than separate project files for saving different project states.
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post #242 of 777 Old 06-23-2016, 03:49 PM
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Andy,
I forgot to ask... In the filter report were it says:

Increase AVR sub out distance by 16.7083 feet

Is it correct to interpret this as 16 feet 8.4996 inch (8.5 inches if we round up)?

What I did was convert the (.7083 feet) into inches since the report on references Feet.

After converting that, I added 16 feet 8.5 inches of distance to each sub via the avr. So in this case the original distance for sub 1 was set to 10 feet 7.5 inches and it is now set to 27 feet 4 inches. is that the correct process?

HT Room: 18'x13'x7.5' with 2 rows of seating.
Pioneer SC-99 & Audiosource AD1002 for Atmos & DTS:X 7.2.4
Andrew Jones Pioneer Elite SP-EFS73 Mains , SP-EC73 Center, SP-EBS73-LR Rear Surrounds, SP-BS41-LR Side Surrounds & Dual SVS SB12-NSD Subs with MiniDSP 2x4 Tuned with REW and MSO.
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post #243 of 777 Old 06-23-2016, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welldun View Post
Andy,
I forgot to ask... In the filter report were it says:

Increase AVR sub out distance by 16.7083 feet

Is it correct to interpret this as 16 feet 8.4996 inch (8.5 inches if we round up)?

What I did was convert the (.7083 feet) into inches since the report on references Feet.

After converting that, I added 16 feet 8.5 inches of distance to each sub via the avr. So in this case the original distance for sub 1 was set to 10 feet 7.5 inches and it is now set to 27 feet 4 inches. is that the correct process?
Yes, that's it. I didn't realize that some AVRs use decimal inches for the distance increment. That's kind of a pain to deal with.
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post #244 of 777 Old 06-23-2016, 04:27 PM
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The other thing I noticed was that you're optimizing down to 15 Hz, but the response is dropping off fast below about 17. That's why you get a low-frequency hump I think. Try setting the low-frequency limit of optimization to 18.5 Hz, and allow the PEQ center frequencies to go as low as 20 Hz.

After making those changes, I got this:



The low-frequency limit of the graph is 15 Hz. The revised project is attached below in the zip file.
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post #245 of 777 Old 06-23-2016, 06:36 PM
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Andy thanks so much for all the help. I uploaded the last one that you sent and adjusted all of the settings as you saw in my last post. All I can say is wow! Everything sounds nice and even all throughout the room and I even had to double-check to make sure the subs were on because the sound is so well integrated with the speakers. I'll dig into this last one that you sent in a little bit, since I'm just getting back home. I had to step out earlier.
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post #246 of 777 Old 06-23-2016, 06:45 PM
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I forgot to mention that the biquad save as text feature worked great!

Quick question for you. On the AVR the gain settings for the subwoofers are currently +5dB or so for each while the rest of the speakers are mostly in the negative and and closer to 0dB. The AVR has a +/-12dB gain range for each channel. Would it make sense to raise the subs manually by that +5dB and then dial down the avr closer to 0dB? Would there be any advantage headroom wise?

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post #247 of 777 Old 06-23-2016, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welldun View Post
Andy thanks so much for all the help. I uploaded the last one that you sent and adjusted all of the settings as you saw in my last post. All I can say is wow! Everything sounds nice and even all throughout the room and I even had to double-check to make sure the subs were on because the sound is so well integrated with the speakers. I'll dig into this last one that you sent in a little bit, since I'm just getting back home. I had to step out earlier.
It's common for people to prefer the rising low end, so the flat one may seem bass-shy to you. See the article by Floyd Toole that I linked you to a while back, "The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems", Figure 13 and the discussion leading up to it. Getting this effect is done with the MSO "target curve" feature. The curve of post 223 ends up looking a lot like those preferred curves.

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post #248 of 777 Old 06-23-2016, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by welldun View Post
I forgot to mention that the biquad save as text feature worked great!

Quick question for you. On the AVR the gain settings for the subwoofers are currently +5dB or so for each while the rest of the speakers are mostly in the negative and and closer to 0dB. The AVR has a +/-12dB gain range for each channel. Would it make sense to raise the subs manually by that +5dB and then dial down the avr closer to 0dB? Would there be any advantage headroom wise?
It could very well be an advantage, especially with the limited miniDSP output of 0.9 Volts RMS maximum. I'd turn the subs up all the way and, using a sine wave of maybe 50 Hz, measure the SPL increase you get. Then dial back both AVR out gain trims by that amount.
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post #249 of 777 Old 06-23-2016, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
It could very well be an advantage, especially with the limited miniDSP output of 0.9 Volts RMS maximum. I'd turn the subs up all the way and, using a sine wave of maybe 50 Hz, measure the SPL increase you get. Then dial back both AVR out gain trims by that amount.
Ok I dialed back the avr to -9db for each sub and set the subs' gain knob to about 3pm on a clock. If I maxed out the subs they avr would have been at the limit of -12dB so I compromised and gave each a little wiggle room.

With regard to the new filter report that you sent, Am I correct in assuming that these new adjustments for the avr and the minidsp should be made based on the original settings as opposed to adding these to the adjustments made from the previous test_opt.zip?

HT Room: 18'x13'x7.5' with 2 rows of seating.
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Andrew Jones Pioneer Elite SP-EFS73 Mains , SP-EC73 Center, SP-EBS73-LR Rear Surrounds, SP-BS41-LR Side Surrounds & Dual SVS SB12-NSD Subs with MiniDSP 2x4 Tuned with REW and MSO.
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post #250 of 777 Old 06-23-2016, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by welldun View Post
With regard to the new filter report that you sent, Am I correct in assuming that these new adjustments for the avr and the minidsp should be made based on the original settings as opposed to adding these to the adjustments made from the previous test_opt.zip?
Yes, the filter report information always refers to the as-measured condition when making changes. For the AVR sub trims, you'd need to dial back the gains by whatever amount you changed them after increasing the sub amp gain to get the net change.

final_trim = orig_trim + mso_change - amount_dialed_back

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post #251 of 777 Old 06-24-2016, 01:38 AM
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Hi Andy,
You've been really busy lately, with all these new releases of MSO. I feel bad saying "keep up the good work", as it must be consuming quite a bit of your time.
Really wanted to confirm something posted earlier - with an MSO configured multiple sub (3) setup sometimes you do find yourself checking that the subs are actually ON - the integration is just so good, it's as if the main speakers have just gotten bigger, more powerful, reaching lower - the subs just disappear and go about their business unseen.
I have my subs controlled via a remote selectable trigger output, so I can enable/disable then at any time - even while something is playing. This is where the "my speakers just got bigger" effect is most pronounced - seamless.
Once again, many thanks, Mike (MSO addict)
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post #252 of 777 Old 06-24-2016, 10:38 AM
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Glad it worked out from a subjective standpoint.
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post #253 of 777 Old 06-28-2016, 05:11 AM
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Good morning Andy,

I tried sending you a PM but that feature is blocked for you. nonetheless, I sent you some info via the chat/conversation that we were having on the Audioholics site. check it out when you have a moment. Thanks.

HT Room: 18'x13'x7.5' with 2 rows of seating.
Pioneer SC-99 & Audiosource AD1002 for Atmos & DTS:X 7.2.4
Andrew Jones Pioneer Elite SP-EFS73 Mains , SP-EC73 Center, SP-EBS73-LR Rear Surrounds, SP-BS41-LR Side Surrounds & Dual SVS SB12-NSD Subs with MiniDSP 2x4 Tuned with REW and MSO.
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post #254 of 777 Old 06-28-2016, 02:04 PM
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I tried sending you a PM but that feature is blocked for you. nonetheless, I sent you some info via the chat/conversation that we were having on the Audioholics site. check it out when you have a moment. Thanks.
I turned off PMs on all audio sites I frequent, and did not receive your information at the Audioholics site. All the MSO-related PMs I've ever received were concerned with topics best discussed in this thread.
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post #255 of 777 Old 06-30-2016, 09:15 AM
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I turned off PMs on all audio sites I frequent, and did not receive your information at the Audioholics site. All the MSO-related PMs I've ever received were concerned with topics best discussed in this thread.
The info is part of our original conversation on the audiolohics site. Take a look when you get a chance.
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post #256 of 777 Old 06-30-2016, 04:55 PM
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I did a "leave conversation" in that discussion about a week or so ago. The XenForo software apparently just blows the whole conversation away for the user who chooses that command (which wasn't my intention), so there isn't anything there. Any discussion of MSO should be made in this thread. I'm not taking any more PMs.
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post #257 of 777 Old 07-10-2016, 01:05 PM
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I did a "leave conversation" in that discussion about a week or so ago. The XenForo software apparently just blows the whole conversation away for the user who chooses that command (which wasn't my intention), so there isn't anything there. Any discussion of MSO should be made in this thread. I'm not taking any more PMs.
Hi Andy,
I'll send the info from that conversation at a later time. at the moment I'm upstate NY at my brother in laws house helping him setup his theater. He got a miniDSP 2x4 like I do, so I brought over my laptop and did some measurements for him using REW. I've attached the FRD file hoping you can take a look at the measurement and work your magic with MSO. I'll plug the info in to the program here also,but it would be great to get your measurements also just to make sure that it's correct.Allen Meza minidsp.zip

HT Room: 18'x13'x7.5' with 2 rows of seating.
Pioneer SC-99 & Audiosource AD1002 for Atmos & DTS:X 7.2.4
Andrew Jones Pioneer Elite SP-EFS73 Mains , SP-EC73 Center, SP-EBS73-LR Rear Surrounds, SP-BS41-LR Side Surrounds & Dual SVS SB12-NSD Subs with MiniDSP 2x4 Tuned with REW and MSO.
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post #258 of 777 Old 07-10-2016, 02:54 PM
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Hi Andy,
I'll send the info from that conversation at a later time. at the moment I'm upstate NY at my brother in laws house helping him setup his theater. He got a miniDSP 2x4 like I do, so I brought over my laptop and did some measurements for him using REW. I've attached the FRD file hoping you can take a look at the measurement and work your magic with MSO. I'll plug the info in to the program here also,but it would be great to get your measurements also just to make sure that it's correct.Attachment 1538993
Before optimization:




After optimization:




I only optimized down to 30 Hz, since the response seemed to fall quickly below that. The project is below, in the zip file.
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post #259 of 777 Old 07-10-2016, 03:23 PM
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I only optimized down to 30 Hz, since the response seemed to fall quickly below that. The project is below, in the zip file.
thank you so much Andy. I'll plug these into his miniDSP now.

HT Room: 18'x13'x7.5' with 2 rows of seating.
Pioneer SC-99 & Audiosource AD1002 for Atmos & DTS:X 7.2.4
Andrew Jones Pioneer Elite SP-EFS73 Mains , SP-EC73 Center, SP-EBS73-LR Rear Surrounds, SP-BS41-LR Side Surrounds & Dual SVS SB12-NSD Subs with MiniDSP 2x4 Tuned with REW and MSO.
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post #260 of 777 Old 07-10-2016, 03:45 PM
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quick question Andy..

the program suggests that I increase the AVR sub out distance by 20.7 but that amount can be added to the current distance of 9.5 because it maxes out at 30ft. so in this case do I just leave it without the additional .2ft or do I adjust the other speakers' distances to compensate?

HT Room: 18'x13'x7.5' with 2 rows of seating.
Pioneer SC-99 & Audiosource AD1002 for Atmos & DTS:X 7.2.4
Andrew Jones Pioneer Elite SP-EFS73 Mains , SP-EC73 Center, SP-EBS73-LR Rear Surrounds, SP-BS41-LR Side Surrounds & Dual SVS SB12-NSD Subs with MiniDSP 2x4 Tuned with REW and MSO.
ELite Screens Edge Free Aeon Series 100 inch Cinewhite Screen & Epson 5040UB Projector.
Nvidia Shield (2017), SONY UBP-X800 4K UHD Blu-ray player & SONY PS3.
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post #261 of 777 Old 07-10-2016, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by welldun View Post
quick question Andy..

the program suggests that I increase the AVR sub out distance by 20.7 but that amount can be added to the current distance of 9.5 because it maxes out at 30ft. so in this case do I just leave it without the additional .2ft or do I adjust the other speakers' distances to compensate?
The 0.2 feet corresponds to 0.18 msec. I just tried changing the shared delay by that much and it didn't make much of a difference at all. So I guess it's easier to just max it out.
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post #262 of 777 Old 07-10-2016, 04:30 PM
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The 0.2 feet corresponds to 0.18 msec. I just tried changing the shared delay by that much and it didn't make much of a difference at all. So I guess it's easier to just max it out.
ok thanks.

HT Room: 18'x13'x7.5' with 2 rows of seating.
Pioneer SC-99 & Audiosource AD1002 for Atmos & DTS:X 7.2.4
Andrew Jones Pioneer Elite SP-EFS73 Mains , SP-EC73 Center, SP-EBS73-LR Rear Surrounds, SP-BS41-LR Side Surrounds & Dual SVS SB12-NSD Subs with MiniDSP 2x4 Tuned with REW and MSO.
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post #263 of 777 Old 07-10-2016, 04:32 PM
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ok thanks.
You could fine-tune it if you want. In that case you would decrease the distances of all non-sub speakers by 0.2 feet in addition to maxing out the sub distance.
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post #264 of 777 Old 07-11-2016, 07:09 PM
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It's common for people to prefer the rising low end, so the flat one may seem bass-shy to you. See the article by Floyd Toole that I linked you to a while back, The Measurement and Calibration of Sound Reproducing Systems[/URL]", Figure 13 and the discussion leading up to it. Getting this effect is done with the MSO "target curve" feature. The curve of post 223 ends up looking a lot like those preferred curves.
@andyc56
Any chance we could get this as an option in the UI? I'm currently researching how to do this with the import function (which I can't find in the manual fwiw) and I don't want any house curve other than this one.
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post #265 of 777 Old 07-12-2016, 08:02 AM
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Possible bug regarding "AVR or pre/pro with sub out" feature

When I select the "AVR or pre/pro with sub out" option, I've noticed that I have to have a Gain block and a Delay block in the config or else MSO doesn't print out anything in the Filter Report for the AVR settings. When I add a delay block and a gain block to the shared config, it works as expected. It is a little confusing that the delay and gain are printed in the report in addition to the AVR settings. At first I thought it wanted me to do both, instead of representing the same config in different ways.

On more thing. It would be nice to have "inverse polarity" be a tunable setting. I have that option on both of my subs, and thus it could be used to improve the response. (Actually one of my subs has four options; 0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees.)
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post #266 of 777 Old 07-12-2016, 10:14 AM
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@andyc56
Any chance we could get this as an option in the UI? I'm currently researching how to do this with the import function (which I can't find in the manual fwiw) and I don't want any house curve other than this one.
Specifying target curves is an area where MSO needs improvement. I'll put out an interim solution in the next version, and for the version after that I'll try to come up with a better way.

I just recently got some new information from @AustinJerry about the target curve from the Harman experiments as a result of a discussion in another thread. He posted a link to a PDF file of the Harman study that shows they used a second-order shelving filter to create the target curve. This shelving filter had a "half boost frequency" (sometimes called "center frequency") of 105 Hz, which was not changed in the study. Only the boost was changed.

This filter type is the same as MSO's second-order low-frequency shelf. However, MSO specifies such filters in terms of of the boost and the low-frequency corner. If you keep the low-frequency corner constant and vary the boost, the center frequency will change. Part of the interim solution for target curves will consist of defining an alternate form for first- and second-order low-frequency shelving filters which allows the user to specify the boost and the center frequency (instead of the boost and the low-frequency corner). The other part of the interim solution will be an option to save a filter channel response as a target curve. So the interim method for the next version would consist of the following:
  • Create a dummy configuration that is completely empty except for a single dummy subwoofer channel.
  • Add a shelving filter of the alternate form as described above to the dummy filter channel, allowing the specification of its boost and center frequency.
  • Make a graph showing the response of this dummy subwoofer channel.
  • Tweak the filter parameters to taste.
  • A new command will be implemented for the filter channel allowing you to save the filter channel's response as a target curve text file.

This is clearly a kluge, and what's needed is a new method dedicated to only specifying target curves, without the need for dummy configurations and so on. I'll do that in the version after next. That version will also add cubic spline interpolation to help in specifying smooth target curves with a small number of points.

By the way, Geddes recommends a target curve that rises at 3-6 dB per decade below 200 Hz. This can be easily specified in a simple target curve file as follows (example is 6 dB boost). For this example, "Use logarithmic interpolation" should be checked.

20.0 6.0
200.0 0.0

At frequencies lower than the lowest frequency specified in the target curve, the target value will be the same as that of the lowest frequency, so it will level out at 6 dB below 20 Hz in the example above. A similar thing happens at the high-frequency end of the curve.
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post #267 of 777 Old 07-12-2016, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by jrett View Post
When I select the "AVR or pre/pro with sub out" option, I've noticed that I have to have a Gain block and a Delay block in the config or else MSO doesn't print out anything in the Filter Report for the AVR settings. When I add a delay block and a gain block to the shared config, it works as expected. It is a little confusing that the delay and gain are printed in the report in addition to the AVR settings. At first I thought it wanted me to do both, instead of representing the same config in different ways.
I'll look into this and fix it in the next version as necessary. In the meantime, an example project would help a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrett View Post
On more thing. It would be nice to have "inverse polarity" be a tunable setting. I have that option on both of my subs, and thus it could be used to improve the response. (Actually one of my subs has four options; 0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees.)
Having discrete values for optimizable parameters unfortunately requires a so-called "combinatorial optimizer". The type of optimization code used by MSO doesn't allow for this without seriously compromising its convergence behavior, so that change is not in the cards.

A sub having discrete phase settings of 0 and 180 might do this with a simple polarity reversal. That corresponds directly to the polarity inversion of MSO. But if you see numbers like 90 and 270, that corresponds to some kind of all-pass filter whose properties are unknown. Such filters have an amplitude response that's flat with frequency and a phase response that varies with frequency in a manner unknown to the user and to MSO. So MSO cannot model it. You can implement all-pass filters in MSO if you have a DSP that supports it, such as the miniDSP.
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post #268 of 777 Old 07-12-2016, 11:36 AM
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Thanks for the quick response!

I've attached my project. One without the gain and delay block, one with. I would expect both to have the same solution and have the same AVR settings, but they do not.
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post #269 of 777 Old 07-15-2016, 01:31 PM
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Thanks for the quick response!

I've attached my project. One without the gain and delay block, one with. I would expect both to have the same solution and have the same AVR settings, but they do not.
I had a look at your examples today and couldn't find anything wrong with them regarding the filter report. It's possible that I may be misunderstanding what your objection is though.

In your complete_final.msop file, there is a shared sub gain of 10 dB and no individual gains. Also, there is a shared sub delay of -9.40 msec and no individual sub delays. The filter report shows the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by complete_final.msop filter report
Final gain and delay/distance settings:
Increase AVR sub out trim gain by 10 dB
Sub Channel 1 gain: 0 dB
Sub Channel 2 gain: 0 dB
Increase AVR sub out distance by 10.7 feet
Sub Channel 1 delay: 0.0678831 msec
Sub Channel 2 delay: 0.0678831 msec
In your bug_broken.msop file, there are neither shared nor individual gains nor delays. Thus all distance and delay settings should be unchanged from the as-measured condition. The filter report shows the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bug_broken.msop filter report
Final gain and delay/distance settings:
No change to AVR sub out trim gain
Sub Channel 1 gain: 0 dB
Sub Channel 2 gain: 0 dB
No change to AVR sub out distance
Sub Channel 1 delay: 0 msec
Sub Channel 2 delay: 0 msec
This is exactly as expected. The next step is to go into the complete_final.msop file and set the shared delay to 0.0 msec and the shared gain to 0.0 dB. This indicates there is no change from the as-measured condition, even though gain and delay blocks are present. The filter report shows the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by complete_final.msop filter report with delays and gains zeroed out
Final gain and delay/distance settings:
No change to AVR sub out trim gain
Sub Channel 1 gain: 0 dB
Sub Channel 2 gain: 0 dB
No change to AVR sub out distance
Sub Channel 1 delay: 0 msec
Sub Channel 2 delay: 0 msec
This is again exactly as expected: no change to gain or delay/distance from the as-measured condition.
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post #270 of 777 Old 07-15-2016, 01:41 PM
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I had a look at your examples today and couldn't find anything wrong with them regarding the filter report. It's possible that I may be misunderstanding what your objection is though.

In your complete_final.msop file, there is a shared sub gain of 10 dB and no individual gains. Also, there is a shared sub delay of -9.40 msec and no individual sub delays. The filter report shows the following:



In your bug_broken.msop file, there are neither shared nor individual gains nor delays. Thus all distance and delay settings should be unchanged from the as-measured condition. The filter report shows the following:



This is exactly as expected. The next step is to go into the complete_final.msop file and set the shared delay to 0.0 msec and the shared gain to 0.0 dB. This indicates there is no change from the as-measured condition, even though gain and delay blocks are present. The filter report shows the following:



This is again exactly as expected: no change to gain or delay/distance from the as-measured condition.
My point was that since I told MSO I have an AVR (with sub delay and gain settings) it is redundant to put a gain and delay block in my config. One could argue that the gain and delay block in my config would be separate and additional to the setting that MSO tell me to adjust in my AVR.
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