HSU VTF-15H = Terrible Imaging, need suggestions! - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 35 Old 08-27-2015, 11:23 PM - Thread Starter
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HSU VTF-15H = Terrible Imaging, need suggestions!

First, I'd like to hear feedback for which 15 inch subs out there have better imaging for around 1 grand per sub. Would a Rythmik 15 do it? Is there another company I should be looking at?

Wow, do I regret picking up this 120LB. paper weight. Dr. Hsu..have you ever heard of something called sonic imaging? You might have heard that phrase tossed around before, seeing that you are supposed to be a professional. First- the Good Stuff about it. The subwoofer can get very loud, but for most people setting the volume to 75db means barely..I mean BARELY touching the Gain from 0. Setting the volume on a Definitive SC for instance, is made so much more simple with digital controls. This feels like you are adjusting an old dinosaur.

Feel like listening to the sub even at just +1db hot? You better toss any imaging out the door and focus your eyes on where the bass is coming from- right out of the sub box with little to no spaciousness.

The bass is kind of tight with the Q control (variable from .3 to .7) having just a little effect. Unfortunately, where the bass sounds really tight, it's also very light and detached, and doesn't blend in at all with my Ascend Sierra-1's. A low q also means less of the real deep bass around 23Hz. Bringing up the q enough where the 23hz can be heard at all, makes the bass a little bit bloated sounding and less than tight and ideal. This isn't a terrible draw back though. It just kind of sucks a little bit

Now, the real deal breaker for me is just how remarkably terrible the sonic imaging is with this sub. I've even used cheap Sony subs in the past that sound like the bass is playing "out of the box" better than the HSU. This thing just REALLY wants you to know that almost all of the tones between 20-90hz are coming directly from the sub and box...it has no idea how to blend in. How is it so clueless to imaging, Dr. Hsu? It's so bad, it's remarkable your engineers pulled it off in such a heinous fashion. And again, if you are looking to reduce the bass, good friggin' luck because the Gain is probably almost at 0 already. Like your LFE mixed in hot? Hope you like knowing that all of the sonic cues are coming directly from the subwoofer, and not all around you or centered in a stereo setup. Unless you have room under your screen directly in the center for this sub. Just do not buy this sub if you only want 1 subwoofer, and it has to go next to a wall and you want good imaging. Forget buying a HSU if that's important to you.

Do you like not being able to pick between a 12db/24db crossover? Then you'll love this sub. HSU already has taken the time to assume it will work with whatever you throw at it. Who needs options? It feels like you have either the choice of a 24db cutoff, or almost nothing at all. What's wrong with a 12db/24db select-able, Dr.?

Looking for a subwoofer with a 2 setting EQ control that will potentially void the warranty and blow the driver if you forget to take a foam pad out of the port or switched a knob by accident? Look no further, Dr. Hsu has that option ready for you.

We all know that BASH amplifiers are the best around for bass...Dr. Hsu gives you that BASH. Hopefully, it lasts for more than a year or 2. Genius amp choice Dr.

I also thought it was really intelligent of them to not include any type of remote control. Everyone must know how much I love bending over to get to the back of the sub which is 2 feet long, to look at all of the analog adjustment knobs upside down. You'll also enjoy lifting all 120lbs., and doing it often too, as you can never seem to find a perfect spot for the bass to sound centered.

Adding more subwoofers will help with the imaging, which is the absolute sore spot for HSU subs..but not everyone can afford multiple subs or have the space for it.

Can someone please recommend a better sub (or 2) than the VTF-15H, especially for accuracy, depth and imaging - 3 words not in Dr. Hsu's vocabulary, I can assure you.

Sorry guys, Hsu's subs are not the quality, low-cost leader that you are looking for. Keep looking!

Last edited by InstantEulogy; 08-28-2015 at 02:02 AM.
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post #2 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 12:04 AM
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^^^

Wow! How long have you had the subs and are they in optimal positions? Any form of DRC, crossover settings etc... Seems there may be a things that you can do to fine tune the subs before a post like this!
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post #3 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 12:23 AM
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I'm sure ShadyJ will chime in to respond. Better go get the popcorn......this should be fun.
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post #4 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 12:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh...I have tried just about every crossover setting and combination on my receiver, setting mains to 70, 80, 90, using the crossover built into the sub, and setting it "out" to let the receiver cross it over. I try fiddling with it just about every single day to correct problems that arise. The problem is also when I fix a problem frequency, it seems to break it somewhere else.

I've even used a sound meter and took pages of measurements for every possible phase, x over setting, and gain settings in hopes of finding that "optimal" setting. I've had it for a few months now...and frankly...I'm physically exhausted and mentally drained for trying setting after setting, day after day. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm getting frustrated and honestly I am losing interest in listening to music/games/movies after owning this sub. I find myself more often than not just directly feeding my Acoustic Sierra-1's and bypassing the LFE/sub.

I know I might sound harsh, but I'm literally getting depressed over all the effort, time, and money I've put into this to be disappointed by sub-par bass quality. Depressing because I could have used all of this time on something more rewarding. Again, all the volumes for each note (23-90hz) are quite well balanced, but the bass just keeps being obviously steered to the right where the Hsu is. I need a subwoofer that I don't feel I have to bypass to acheive high quality sound with good imaging. I want to be excited about bass again, not in fear of how crappy the imaging will be compared to my Sierra's- to the point I'd rather just unplug the Hsu and say forget the bass.
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post #5 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 12:32 AM
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[emoji33][emoji33][emoji33] Do you have any REW graphs on your sub to look at.

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post #6 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 01:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh...I have tried just about every crossover setting and combination on my receiver, setting mains to 70, 80, 90, using the crossover built into the sub, and setting it "out" to let the receiver cross it over. I try fiddling with it just about every single day to correct problems that arise. The problem is also when I fix a problem frequency, it seems to break it somewhere else.

I've even used a sound meter and took pages of measurements for every possible phase, x over setting, and gain settings in hopes of finding that "optimal" setting. I've had it for a few months now...and frankly...I'm physically exhausted and mentally drained for trying setting after setting, day after day. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm getting frustrated and honestly I am losing interest in listening to music/games/movies after owning this sub. I find myself more often than not just directly feeding my Acoustic Sierra-1's and bypassing the LFE/sub.

I know I might sound harsh, but I'm literally getting depressed over all the effort, time, and money I've put into this to be disappointed by sub-par bass quality. Depressing because I could have used all of this time on something more rewarding. Again, all the volumes for each note (23-90hz) are quite well balanced, but the bass just keeps being obviously steered to the right where the Hsu is. I need a subwoofer that I don't feel I have to bypass to acheive high quality sound with good imaging. I want to be excited about bass again, not in fear of how crappy the imaging will be compared to my Sierra's- to the point I'd rather just unplug the Hsu and say forget the bass.
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post #7 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 01:59 AM - Thread Starter
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No graphs, it's kind of a funny thought that the more expensive your equipment is, the harder it is to get it sounding good. You are going to have to trust me and my sound meter that the right side of the room where the HSU is is around 4db hotter than the left. I don't have a million options of where to put a subwoofer that is over 2 feet long in this room.

I have a very good feeling that buying 2 Rhythmik FV15HP's would be a much easier, and timelier decision to get good balanced, centered bass then spending more money on equipment and software just to tame the short comings of the cheaper VTF-15H.

Good thing for you guys, if you live near Westminster, CA...there might just be a VTF-15H on the sidewalk in front of my house in the near future. I just keep getting more and more disappointed and truly depressed with how bad of a decision I made picking up a basic..I mean beginner...I mean Hsu subwoofer.

Sorry, the VTF-15H shouldn't be in the category of "good" bass. If you think this is "good," I fear to know what your baseline is. Barely acceptable to older people with hearing loss...maybe. I wouldn't sell my father one after having one, for whatever that's worth. This sub isn't just whatever, it PISSES me off and I don't wish that on anyone in this forum. Save your money...sell your Hsu if you have one. Much better bass is to be found at this point.
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post #8 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 02:34 AM
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HSU VTF-15H = Terrible Imaging, need suggestions!

Sounds like your done... but don't give up come over to the dark side and join us diy guys and build 2 marty slot ported box's and get 2 18'' subs with an Inuke 6000DSP amp. The bass is something you just have to hear. The amp has dsp built into it that you can adjust and with the free REW software you can fine tune the sub pretty flat in your room. You can buy flat packs to for the subs so no cutting if you want it to be a little more simple on yourself. I have 4 of them and couldn't be more happy. Sell what you have and just forget about the bad bass situation your in.

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Last edited by eng-399; 08-28-2015 at 03:41 PM.
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post #9 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 03:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Drool...man I wish I knew how to build all of that myself. Then I wouldn't have to go around purchasing 120lb+ subs that you could easily point out where they are in a room blindfolded. Dr. Hsu needs some lessons from you guys in "integration" and "imaging." I'd even pay Hsu more if they could actually build a good sub that integrates and *gasps* actually has good imaging. Don't even get me started on the Bash amp. Ugh.
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post #10 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 04:50 AM
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Dr. Hsu doesn't need any lessons in "integration" and imaging. However, it sounds like you need a few pointers on how to setup a sub properly.

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Vizio E601I-A3; Darbee Darblet; Pioneer Elite BDP-62FD universal blu-ray player; Pioneer Elite SC-67 AVR, Dual PSA XS15se's; Monitor Audio Silver RX-6 mains, RX center, and RX surrounds; Home-built HTPC (Xeon E1230, 16gb RAM, Crucial M500 480gb SSD, Radeon R280, Corsair CX600, CoolerMaster mini-ITX case)
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post #11 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sk373 View Post
Dr. Hsu doesn't need any lessons in "integration" and imaging. However, it sounds like you need a few pointers on how to setup a sub properly.
Agreed.

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post #12 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 05:01 AM
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FWIW there's no such thing as imaging in the subwoofer frequency band width, so whatever it is that you're having issues with it's not imaging.
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it sounds like you need a few pointers on how to setup a sub properly.
Agreed.

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post #13 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 06:11 AM
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Well I must admit, this is the first time I've heard anybody rail against the VTF-15H like this. Seems that most people here (some of our most knowledgeable members too) get fantastic results from them. I'd be willing to bet that it's either (A) operator error, or less likely (B) a faulty unit. Have you even TRIED calling HSU before going off on a online tirade like this? They'd probably be happy to help you get it dialed in.
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post #14 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
FWIW there's no such thing as imaging in the subwoofer frequency band width, so whatever it is that you're having issues with it's not imaging.
Agreed.
Exactly - it sounds more like an integration issue with the room and/or the mains. Though I don't have experience with this exact HSU unit, I will say that subwoofer installation and meshing with the room acoustics, LCR, and getting good response at all the listening positions is probably the hardest part about home theater. Hell, I'm always tweaking and tinkering with settings/products and years later, I'm still finding changes that I like more than I had setup before.

Anyway, I mean no disrespect to the OP, but we really would like to see some graphs of the response you're getting at the MLP. Speaking negatively in this manner against a reputable company and product without evidence doesn't reflect negatively on HSU, but rather your capabilities. We are all here to help and learn, but let us help you by giving us some charts, room dimensions, AVR settings, room volume and other characteristics. Subwoofer installs, from any brand or DIY project, are rarely an easy thing to install for the discerning listener.

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post #15 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
FWIW there's no such thing as imaging in the subwoofer frequency band width, so whatever it is that you're having issues with it's not imaging.
Agreed.
\

+1. Of course, we don't know what the OP means by "imaging" so it's certainly possible that we are simply miscommunicating.

I will say that my much less capable sub was very localizable in the right front right corner of my room, and is (as one would expect, since imaging, for people whose heads are not a yard wide, occurs several octaves above the pass band of any sub) not localizable once I moved it elsewhere. Doubtless, the localization was due to something in the room resonating to the sub's output. I never attempted to identify that problem because simply moving the sub fixed it.

Unless the sub is turned up so doggone loud that it masks midrange/treble, it should have precisely zero effect on the thing most of us mean when we say "imaging." That is placement of sounds left to right, and especially in a multichannel system, front to back. Onaccounta our ears can't actually physically distinguish direction of sound for a device that is rolling off at 80 Hz or below. Unless our heads are a meter wide . . . .
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post #16 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
I will say that my much less capable sub was very localizable in the right front right corner of my room, and is (as one would expect, since imaging, for people whose heads are not a yard wide, occurs several octaves above the pass band of any sub) not localizable once I moved it elsewhere. Doubtless, the localization was due to something in the room resonating to the sub's output. I never attempted to identify that problem because simply moving the sub fixed it.
This is also what I was thinking - I know it is crazy, but I've always been able to locate a single sub in the room when it's placed far left or right of the mains. Bass just seems heavy on the one side, no matter the crossover settings, and is distracting for me, much like this reviewer's perceptions of an SVS unit placement.


Perhaps this is what the OP means by imaging? My friends who have had just 1 sub in the past, I've helped them sub crawl and usually place it near-field to remove localization effects, but also gives a great tactile experience.

Travis
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post #17 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 09:44 AM
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Agree whole-heartedly with the responses thus far.

It's not the sub, it's your room/setup.
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post #18 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Agree whole-heartedly with the responses thus far.

It's not the sub, it's your room/setup.
Agreed, I've owned the vtf15h and it was an excellent sub. This is probably the first I've read of someone not liking it to this degree. I'm gonna lean towards room/setup problems as well Sorry but saying Dr. Hsu doesnt know how to build a sub is like saying Chuck Norris fights like a ten year old girl
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post #19 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by InstantEulogy View Post
Oh...I have tried just about every crossover setting and combination on my receiver, setting mains to 70, 80, 90, using the crossover built into the sub, and setting it "out" to let the receiver cross it over. I try fiddling with it just about every single day to correct problems that arise. The problem is also when I fix a problem frequency, it seems to break it somewhere else.

I've even used a sound meter and took pages of measurements for every possible phase, x over setting, and gain settings in hopes of finding that "optimal" setting. I've had it for a few months now...and frankly...I'm physically exhausted and mentally drained for trying setting after setting, day after day. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm getting frustrated and honestly I am losing interest in listening to music/games/movies after owning this sub. I find myself more often than not just directly feeding my Acoustic Sierra-1's and bypassing the LFE/sub.

I know I might sound harsh, but I'm literally getting depressed over all the effort, time, and money I've put into this to be disappointed by sub-par bass quality. Depressing because I could have used all of this time on something more rewarding. Again, all the volumes for each note (23-90hz) are quite well balanced, but the bass just keeps being obviously steered to the right where the Hsu is. I need a subwoofer that I don't feel I have to bypass to acheive high quality sound with good imaging. I want to be excited about bass again, not in fear of how crappy the imaging will be compared to my Sierra's- to the point I'd rather just unplug the Hsu and say forget the bass.
Not to be harsh in any way, but you are being a child with all those knobs on the sub amp. You are trying to put the horse behind the cart and then blaming the horse. Without measuring the acoustical response of your room, it's always a hit or a miss. You are doing it all wrong.

Did you ever own a sub? If yes, did you try that sub in the exact same spot as HSU is in right now? I wonder how that sounded.

Try and read on how to integrate a sub in an audio set up.

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post #20 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 10:23 AM
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The OP is broken on so many levels.

A: As has been said, there is no imaging in frequencies which are omnidirectional, ie. the subwoofer's band. Although it sounds to me like you are talking about localization. Localization occurs at frequencies above 80 Hz. Normal AVR crossovers do permit 80+ Hz content from a sub, but at a 24/dB slope, so there shouldn't be much. The thing to do then is lower the AVR crossover. That may not be the issue either, if the actual 80+ Hz stuff is coming from resonances from things outside of your sub. These can often be subtle, but they can draw attention to the sub's location thereby localizing it. The OP should have checked if that was the case. If there was a problem with the woofer, that can generate harmonics that would localize the sub as well. But it sounds like the OP never called Hsu to ask for help. Hsu is very good at techical support, and that is part of what you pay for when you buy their products. I can not for the life of me understand why the OP wouldn't just call Hsu for help or ask for help here instead of letting a subwoofer drive him to depression!?! It also sound like the OP's problem are bigger than the inability to blend the sub in with the mains. If the sub was causing you that much distress, why not just forget it and get another sub?

B: Why are you adjusting the volume on the sub? That should be done on the AVR. Did you read the sub's manual? You spent months trying to dial in the sub but did not look at the manual?

C: Why complain about the sub not having an adjustable 12/24 crossover when that was never listed as a feature? You bought the sub, and if that was a feature you wanted, why didn't you buy a sub that has that on board?

D: You can put the driver at risk by having it run in 1 port with no foam insert, not two ports with an insert. This is going to be an issue with any subwoofer with variable tuning. It's also true for most subs that don't have variable tuning. However, you would have to run the sub really hard to bottom out the driver, even when it is misconfigured. It isn't an issue if you pay attention during setup.

E: If you don't like BASH amps, why did you buy a sub with a BASH amp listed as a feature? Btw, BASH amps are fine, and my Hsu subs with their BASH amps have not had any problems, and they are all 5+ years old.

F: Again, if you wanted a sub with a remote, why did you buy a sub which does not have a remote listed as a feature? Most subs do not have remotes, they (rightfully) expect you to use the AVR remote to control them. This is an asinine complaint.

What gets me is that the OP fusses with the sub for months and did not seek help anywhere, and then only comes here to criticize a product he clearly did not understand, and trash Dr Hsu, one of most well-respected sub designers.
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post #21 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by turbojohngt View Post
Agreed, I've owned the vtf15h and it was an excellent sub. This is probably the first I've read of someone not liking it to this degree. I'm gonna lean towards room/setup problems as well Sorry but saying Dr. Hsu doesnt know how to build a sub is like saying Chuck Norris fights like a ten year old girl
Now that's funny right there😄.
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post #22 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by InstantEulogy View Post

I have a very good feeling that buying 2 Rhythmik FV15HP's would be a much easier, and timelier decision to get good balanced, centered bass then spending more money on equipment and software just to tame the short comings of the cheaper VTF-15H.
I missed this part. It confirms you have absolutely no idea about sub integration. Dune bashing with a Gallardo and then saying there is something wrong with Lamborghini engineers. Your testing ground is all wrong.

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post #23 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 11:53 AM
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Two things about the original post bother me the most.

1. This this notion of being put out and irritated over the lack of a remote. Most of the top end ID subs don't have remotes. Why? because once you get your subs set up (properly) you don't need to mess with the panel controls (use the AVR for changes). Remotes usually come on overpriced brands that focus on bling over substance and are found at Best Buy and like places. It makes me think you didn't know what you were buying and you are used to a different subwoofer market.

2. Bashing a man who is as well respected in his field as Dr. Hsu and saying he is clueless. That's wrong on so many levels. Keep in mind, this is one way Dr. Hsu makes his living. If you are going to make a statement that may potentially drive other customers away from a product you had better be sure your complaints are accurate and 100% valid. Don't mess with a man's livelihood just because you can't figure something out or you have a personal grudge. As Shady said, call Hsu and get the problem resolved instead of complaining in the threads.

Having said that…if you had called Hsu Research and they refused to help, then you would be justified in complaining. But since you didn't mention anything about their Customer Service I have to assume you didn't even bother trying to get help. You need to do that before you disparage a man's name publicly.

Last edited by Hopinater; 08-28-2015 at 11:56 AM.
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post #24 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 12:44 PM
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I don't agree with the tone of the OP post but he sounds more frustrated than malicious which I can totally understand if he spent that kind of money and is not happy. OP you should call their CSR and explain the issue, perhaps they can guide to towards room placement or diagnose if you have a faulty unit. There are many experts on this forum as well. You should at least try out a few different places in the room and see if it makes any difference.
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post #25 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 12:51 PM
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Hello everyone,

The OP has contacted our tech support team last night concerning this and we're currently working with him to figure out what the issue is and hopefully get that solved quickly.
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Kevin W.
Hsu Research
Sales and Marketing Representative
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post #26 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 12:58 PM
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Wow, just wow. Staying tuned in to see if the OP has it in him to come back and learn something....great clueless rant, though!

ps Just saw Kevin's post....at least a step forward.
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post #27 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 01:01 PM
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With a moniker like that, this will certainly be the OP's funeral in the forums.

Spoiler!

Yippee-ki-yay...
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post #28 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InstantEulogy View Post
Dr. Hsu..have you ever heard of something called sonic imaging? You might have heard that phrase tossed around before, seeing that you are supposed to be a professional.
I regret to say that I'm also one of the Great Unwashed who has never heard of "sonic imaging", excepting a medical ultrasound company of that name. Could you please enlighten me? What is it? Why should I care about it? Do you really mean to say that everything that I've been told about the non-directionality of sub-bass is wrong?

I just bought a subwoofer. Are you saying that I need a stereo pair? Or more?

You get what you pay for.  For professional advice, pay the professional rate.
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post #29 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 01:36 PM
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The OP had high expectation and did not get knocked off his feet. Here is a good start place for people new to HT and without measuring gear. :http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817
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post #30 of 35 Old 08-28-2015, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post
The OP is broken on so many levels.

A: As has been said, there is no imaging in frequencies which are omnidirectional, ie. the subwoofer's band. Although it sounds to me like you are talking about localization. Localization occurs at frequencies above 80 Hz. Normal AVR crossovers do permit 80+ Hz content from a sub, but at a 24/dB slope, so there shouldn't be much. The thing to do then is lower the AVR crossover. That may not be the issue either, if the actual 80+ Hz stuff is coming from resonances from things outside of your sub. These can often be subtle, but they can draw attention to the sub's location thereby localizing it. The OP should have checked if that was the case. If there was a problem with the woofer, that can generate harmonics that would localize the sub as well. But it sounds like the OP never called Hsu to ask for help. Hsu is very good at techical support, and that is part of what you pay for when you buy their products. I can not for the life of me understand why the OP wouldn't just call Hsu for help or ask for help here instead of letting a subwoofer drive him to depression!?! It also sound like the OP's problem are bigger than the inability to blend the sub in with the mains. If the sub was causing you that much distress, why not just forget it and get another sub?

B: Why are you adjusting the volume on the sub? That should be done on the AVR. Did you read the sub's manual? You spent months trying to dial in the sub but did not look at the manual?

C: Why complain about the sub not having an adjustable 12/24 crossover when that was never listed as a feature? You bought the sub, and if that was a feature you wanted, why didn't you buy a sub that has that on board?

D: You can put the driver at risk by having it run in 1 port with no foam insert, not two ports with an insert. This is going to be an issue with any subwoofer with variable tuning. It's also true for most subs that don't have variable tuning. However, you would have to run the sub really hard to bottom out the driver, even when it is misconfigured. It isn't an issue if you pay attention during setup.

E: If you don't like BASH amps, why did you buy a sub with a BASH amp listed as a feature? Btw, BASH amps are fine, and my Hsu subs with their BASH amps have not had any problems, and they are all 5+ years old.

F: Again, if you wanted a sub with a remote, why did you buy a sub which does not have a remote listed as a feature? Most subs do not have remotes, they (rightfully) expect you to use the AVR remote to control them. This is an asinine complaint.

What gets me is that the OP fusses with the sub for months and did not seek help anywhere, and then only comes here to criticize a product he clearly did not understand, and trash Dr Hsu, one of most well-respected sub designers.
As much as it pains me, imma gonna agree with this. Lol

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Getting Started with REW: A Step by Step Guide --> http://www.mediafire.com/view/aolmz2..._101_v3.92.pdf

Mini DSP Tutorial by Neutro --> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...g-minidsp.html
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