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Rythmik vs JL vs Rel would one of these work for me? help please

7K views 31 replies 10 participants last post by  tvuong 
#1 ·
Hi, Im looking at upgrading my sub and am looking for advice from more knowledgeable people than myself.

My system:
B&W 804 Matrix floor standing loudspeakers and centre speaker
B&W 602 bookshelf rear speakers
B&W ASW1000 subwoofer (12" ported)
Pioneer SC-LX90 'susano' home theatre amplifier
all speakers are approx 17 years old but working fine.

Room is open plan and approx 36x18x8 feet. at one end of the room is the tv area which is approx 18x16x8. But its all the one room.

I mainly only watch tv/movies approx 90% and remaining 10% music. When wife is home not too loud but whenever the chance arises much louder but not quite reference levels. Even though I only listen to 10% music it would be an advantage if the sub was good musically.

I am not unhappy with my sub but I know that I can do a lot better than this big old girl. My main motivation for a new sub is size. The ASW1000 is big 18x21x19.5 inches. I would like something smaller but dont want to lose any punch and feeling in movies when i watch them.

I have been reading about the following subs Rythmik F12, JL E112 and Rel S3 and would like to know how they would compare for home theatre as I know they would sound a lot better than my current sub but being smaller I wonder how they will compare for HT and if they can handle my room size? I have suggested these subs as they are available to me in Australia. I know the Rythmik E15HP or SVS SB13 Ultra would be better suited but they are approximately the same size as my B&W and will only look at them as a last resort if the smaller ones cant compete for HT against my B&W. I can afford any of the above mentioned subs but dont want to spend any more and not interested in doing a pair of subs.

Would love anyones thoughts and advice. Other suggestions welcomed but would prefer to focus on the brands mentioned.

Thanks in advance.
 
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#3 ·
Room is open plan and approx 36x18x8 feet. at one end of the room is the tv area which is approx 18x16x8.
I mainly only watch tv/movies approx 90% and remaining 10% music.

Even though I only listen to 10% music it would be an advantage if the sub was good musically.

The ASW1000 is big 18x21x19.5 inches. I would like something smaller but dont want to lose any punch and feeling in movies when i watch them.

Would love anyones thoughts and advice. Other suggestions welcomed but would prefer to focus on the brands mentioned.

Thanks in advance.
Those are great subs that you picked but 90% Movies and that room size?
I would look at some ported subs. And do not say Ported subs are not as Musical as sealed subs.

maybe look at HSU.
 
#6 ·
Excellent recommendation, especially for the price! I auditioned their Mk 1 and the Mk 2 is less expensive with solid improvements. However, they are a little bigger than the SB13-Ultra, which the OP felt was too big (??).
 
#7 ·
Hi Guys, Thank you for your responses.


eljaycanuck what would you think would be appropriate for my room? Rythmik E15Hp or SVS SB13ultra would these do it in your opinion?


Blacklightning thanks for your opinions. Im not opposed to ported subs my current sub is ported but due to trying to find a smaller sub I have gone down the path of sealed subs. Do you have a recommendation for a ported sub from one of the mentioned manufacturers?


kini62 HSU aren't as accessible here in South Australia and its as big as my current subwoofer and ideally I would love something smaller. thank you for the link though.


As the Rythmik F12, JL E112 and Rel S3 would all be an improvement on my current sub what are peoples thoughts on which of these would be better. My initial research has led me to believe the JL E112 would be the best and have the most punch and be good musically, the Rel S3 would be best musically but only ok for HT and the Rythmil F12 would be somewhere in the middle (mind you for a lot less $$$) being good for HT and good for music.


What are peoples thoughts on the better sub for my situation between Rythmik E15Hp or SVS SB13ultra if I were to go for something a little larger than the 3 above?
 
#14 · (Edited)
Hi Guys, Thank you for your responses.
What are peoples thoughts on the better sub for my situation between Rythmik E15Hp or SVS SB13ultra if I were to go for something a little larger than the 3 above?
There's a useful post on this 2 subs by Jim, you should read it:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...mik-e15-vs-svs-sb13-ultra-4.html#post24544440

Between the 2, i think u wont go wrong with either. If size of sub is not a problem, i would lean towards Rythmik E15HP due to the servo technology that might make it more musical for u. I have used many brand of subs in my setup before, and Rythmik's bass quality and musicality is one of the best out there at its price point. (i'm using the E15HP and F15HP in my system)

Also, a 12" sub is not sufficient for your room size. My room size is 4300 cubic feet and when i used a 12" in the past (due to budget constraints), it aint enough to fill the room adequately. I regretted going for a 12" and subsequently broke the bank for a 15" with advice from friends, and there was no turning back since ;) So, dont make the same mistake as me! :)
 
#9 ·
Thanks zibanez. Yes 15" would be much better for my size room its just that Rythmik E15HP is bigger than I was hoping for.


Just came across a distributor in Australia for PSA. PSA S1500 looks like a good option. Its a fraction smaller than the SVS SB13Ultra but is 15" driver.
How does PSA compare with the SVS and Rythmik E15HP and JL for that matter? Any advantages or disadvantages over the other brands? how is it musically?
 
#11 ·
I haven’t heard the PSA S1500, but do own the PSA S3000i (which is $100 cheaper than the SB13-Ultra, which I also own). For movies, there is no doubt the S3000i reigns supreme between the two. Not much of a contest as far as tactile feel is concerned. The S3000i is also excellent for music, but not quite as refined as the Ultra for all types of music. I slightly prefer the Ultra for music. The Ultra was design by Jim Farina when he was at SVS and is now co-owner/founder of PSA (Tom of PSA mentioned this in another thread). I’d like to thank Jim for a great product in the Ultra, and both Jim and Tom for a great product in the S3000i.

Since the S1500 and S3000i use the same drivers, I would expect the S1500 to be better for movies and very good for music. That represent quite a value in my book.
 
#17 ·
The S3000i is also excellent for music, but not quite as refined as the Ultra for all types of music. I slightly prefer the Ultra for music.
Im starting to think that the PSA S1500 or the SB13Ultra are the way to go now for mainly the reason you have pointed out. I am feeling the Rythmik E15HP is bigger than I want to go. Any one have any opinions on how the S1500 and SB13Ultra compare to the Rythmik E15HP?
Post #14 has a link comparing the sb13 and e15 and based on dsrussel's comment that he finds the s3000 is not quite as refined as the sb13 for all types of music and since the e15 is bigger than what you want, you can draw your own conclusion.
 
#12 ·
Thanks for your responses eljaycanuck and dsrussell.








Im starting to seriously look at the Ultra and S1500 now....fear of missing out I guess. Ideally I wanted something smaller but these are still reasonably sized and priced.












If Im not playing music and movies at reference level but more like -18 would I notice the difference between the Ultra and S1500 compared to say the JLE112 or Rythmik F12?




dsrussell what music do you prefer the Ultra for?
 
#13 ·
Thanks for your responses eljaycanuck and dsrussell.

Im starting to seriously look at the Ultra and S1500 now....fear of missing out I guess. Ideally I wanted something smaller but these are still reasonably sized and priced.

If Im not playing music and movies at reference level but more like -18 would I notice the difference between the Ultra and S1500 compared to say the JLE112 or Rythmik F12?

dsrussell what music do you prefer the Ultra for?
First, I have auditioned the JL Audio F212 Fathom at an audio store. I have listened to the JL Audio G213 Gotham (and another of their smaller JL Audio subs integrated with some Maggies) at this years audio show. I think the JL Audio E112 would be very comparable to the Ultra (again, I haven’t heard the S1500). No doubt that JL Audio makes great subwoofers (very succinct). They produce a high quality product. I also auditioned the Paradigm Sub 1 at an audio store. I was also fortunate to audition the DSS 24-Mariana at that audio show (with music I brought). It became a bang-for-the-buck issue, as well as a warranty issue (SVS and PSA have the best warranties around). At home, I’ve auditioned the Hsu ULS-15 Mk 1, the PSA XS30 (which I bought over two years ago and I just gave to my son) and the PSA S3000i (which I now own), along with the SVS SB13-Ultra (its only duty is for music, although it’s not a slouch for movies for its size — just not quite as capable as a 15” driver on a good sub). I wanted to audition the Rythmik due to their reputation on music, but they were on a 6 month backorder when I was auditioning.

Second, I don’t play music or movies at reference levels, but I do play them loud (up to -12 dB on the AVR), which turns out to be upper 80s to lower 90 dB peaks for speakers and lower 100 dBs peaks for subwoofers (as measured at my listening position). A good subwoofer is capable of being impressive at much lower volumes, and all those listed are good subwoofers.

Most quality subwoofers can play most music very well. Obviously, some better than others. I like music that makes great use of very deep bass, as well as accurate bass on bass guitars, harps, string bass, etc. Certain groups that use synthesizers and classical music with pipe organs can be very demanding tests for subwoofers. I listen to Pink Floyd, Alan Parsons, Mike Oldfield (very deep bass using synthesizers), Steven Wilson, and on and on. I use two of Mike Oldfield’s tracks to test the capabilities of subwoofers. Some pass, others fail … and sometimes fail completely.
 
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#15 ·
Thanks your advice sevenz.


Im starting to think that the PSA S1500 or the SB13Ultra are the way to go now for mainly the reason you have pointed out. I am feeling the Rythmik E15HP is bigger than I want to go. Any one have any opinions on how the S1500 and SB13Ultra compare to the Rythmik E15HP?
 
#18 ·
Dsrussel and others have provided some excellent input. I'd just add that if you are looking for big performance out of a small box, I don't think anybody does it consistently better than JL Audio. My perception is that they are constantly engineering products that perform well with a smaller form factor, including their subs, speakers and amps. My current truck and current boat are loaded with mostly JL Audio auto and marine components as have been numerous previous cars, trucks and boats. I am willing to pay the JL premium for cars and boats because space and durability are at a premium in an auto or marine application and I have never been disappointed.

That said, you pay a price-premium for JL engineering as well as the name. I don't use JL subs in my home system because I don't consider space in a home system as important as space in a car or boat system. I have auditioned JL's F113--which were awesome performers for their size--but if you can give a bit on the size requirements, you can get more performance for a lot less money looking elsewhere. I'll take my much bigger-boxed Seaton SubMersives over a similarly priced smaller JL sub all day, all week, as long as I don't need the extra space. But if size reduction is really that important to you--and you can afford it--then JL is where I would personally be looking just based on the design philosophy and track record of the company.
 
#19 ·
I'll take my much bigger-boxed Seaton SubMersives over a similarly priced smaller JL sub all day, all week, as long as I don't need the extra space.
Now I'm jealous! I came close to putting the money down for a SubMersive, but since I don't listen at or near reference levels, even my S3000i is overkill. Congratulations on your excellent choice!
 
#20 ·
Thanks guys your feedback is helpful but Im still going round in circles.


I can demo a Rel S3 in store and possibly get it home for trial so I will see how it goes for performance which I think will help steer me in the right direction. If it has enough oomph for me I will know that I can look at the smaller boxes and 12" (even though its 10" with 12" passive) if not I know I have to look at the SVS or PSA.


Anyone had experience with the REL S3 would be interested to hear their thoughts.


Once again thank you for everyone's advice. Where I am located I can not listen to any of the above mentioned brands except REL and there are no trial periods as well so it makes it difficult making a decision when its all on numbers on a screen. That having been said I think I have a decent short list to chose from and a better understanding of their abilities thanks to you.
 
#21 ·
ok so about to pull the trigger and buy some Sonus Faber Venere 2.5's and centre cahnnel. Getting them at or below cost so figured what do I have to lose. Anyway they have a Rel S3 that I can get for a third of cost price. Going to take it home and see how it fills the room. If it is not enough it hasn't cost me anything if it is good well I will have to seriously think about it or at least I will know what size and how much power I feel I need in my room. Will report back with my thoughts.
 
#22 ·
Wow! Congratulations on the Sonus Faber Venere 2.5!! Another gentleman is auditioning the Venere 2.5's and another model REL sub. I'm guessing you both visited a Magnolia Design Center? Anyway, let us know how everything sounds in your home, including the REL.
 
#24 ·
Ok so I tried the s3 and must say I was underwhelmed. I think potentially how ever in its defence that I may have done a crap job of setting it up correctly but I did follow the instructions and had my wife helping me so I could listen as she adjusted it.
Any way it just didn't seem to sound as though it had any punch at all. It was clean and clear but I must say I prefer my existing sub for movies compared with this. I don't know if that is because my existing sub is ported? How ever being that the rel is a passive radiator (bass reflex?) I have heard that they are essentially ported?
The shop has given me a definitive technology super cube 8000 to demo to basically just get some idea of how different subs sound. Haven tweaked it yet but do have it plugged in and already notice it is an improvement over the rel s3.
 
#25 ·
Def Tech (which also uses passive radiators) makes pretty subs that are small, but underperform. Def Tech specs are NEVER to be trusted. They won’t come near their published specs and simply flat out are misleading. However, if it is the size you looking for and you like its performance, then perhaps it is the sub for you. I haven't auditioned them because they don't come close to meeting their specs (actual third-party measurements vs Def Tech specs). I do feel the SB13-Ultra or E15HP Rythmik would be more impressive performers.
 
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#26 ·
Yes I agree. I love the size of the def tech but I think if it sounds good imagine how good a sub with bigger driver will sound. I think I'm leaning towards the PSA S1500 due to size and bang for buck. I hear that the sb13 ultra and rhythmic are better for music but how much better? Would the difference be very noticeable?
 
#27 ·
You have a couple of things working against you: an extreme room volume (over 5,000 cu. ft.) and restrictions on the physical size of the subwoofer. I think for most music it’s probably a moot point. I will assume the PSA S1500 has similar performance to my S3000i, which means the quality differences for music are very minor and could be just as easily attributed to location than in any inherent fault of the subwoofer itself (I may have the SB13 located in a more advantageous location than my S3000i). More importantly, your usage is 90% movies, and this is where size matters.

I do not recommend the SB13-Ultra for movie usage in such a large volume room (for music it may be just fine). It’s asking a lot out of a 13-1/2” driver, even if it is powered by a 1,000 watt amplifier. The S1500 would be stretching its capabilities in such a room volume (and so would my S3000i). Normally, large ported subs are an answer. But since you do have a size restriction, I think the S1500 is about as good as you’re going to do (although I see a second S1500 in your future).
 
#29 ·
These are two very nice subwoofers. I’d be only guessing, since I haven’t auditioned either one, so I can’t really give you an opinion. Perhaps a member who has heard both can jump in. As far as ported subs are concerned, they are going to be bigger, and often a LOT bigger. But their output is such that they have a better chance of filling a large volume.

Unfortunately, being in Australia doesn’t give you the same perks as in the U.S. Here, it is easy to order a sub and check it out without worrying about return shipping costs if one isn’t satisfied (PSA, SVS and now RA has this “free” two-way shipping policy). You, on the other hand, may be stuck with a product that doesn’t quite do the job to your satisfaction, without adding a second sub in the future. And I certainly don’t want to mislead you in any way. I can say that both the Rythmik and PSA subs mentioned should give you fairly impressive bass, even in that large of a room, but probably not the type of bass that pressurizes and shakes the house.

Finally, I’d talk to the people at PSA and Rythmik (either via their website, through emails or on the phone). They can be a big help and perhaps allay some of your concerns and perhaps help lead you in the right direction. Since I’ve dealt with Tom at PSA, I know for a fact that he will never oversell anyone.
 
#30 ·
Ok so just hooked up and had a,play with the def tech super cube 8000. Very impressed with what it puts out for its size because it is tiny. I played various scenes at -15 on my system and there was decent rumblings, thuds and explosions.
My question is being that this is a bass reflex design (I have read bass reflex is essentially the same as ported) speaker with 1 active 11" and 2 passive 12" how will a sealed sub such as the Rythmik E15hp or PSA S1500 sound and compare?
Also the PSA S1500 has more power compared to the Rythmik would that be an advantage considering the size of my room or is the 125rms not a big deal?
 
#31 ·
Subwoofer amplifiers are matched to the driver, dsp and box size, and just because one sub has an extra 125 watts means very little. However, the brand of amplifier may indeed matter. Check with each company on the amplifier they use (PSA uses ICE Power amplifiers these days).

Both the Rythmik and PSA should have greater output than the Def Tech, and both will go deeper. You can check some of their subwoofers on data-bass to see their performance: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=systems
 
#32 · (Edited)
The overall performance is what one should be looking for, not a single component. The Rythmik FV15 has the most output and extension of all of the ID single 15" sub tested at databass and they do it with less amp power plus servo drive is worth mentioning. Brian Ding, the man behind Rythmik has a P.H.D in electrical engineer.
 
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