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Buttkicker LFE one or two

9K views 29 replies 6 participants last post by  SBuger 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi

My apologies for the thread title, it started with just one question, but than a few more popped into my head while typing this.

My room is about 23 x 17 x 8 feet, with two larger openings (no doors) towards hallway and kitchen.
I have a 7.1 surround with Polk Audios (RTIA7, CSIA6, FXIA4), and one PB-1000 for the sub.
My floor is laminate with sub-flooring, suspended over a crawl space.

The sub is placed in the front (next to the front speakers), about 11 away from seating.
While it can sometime produce good sound, I often find it underwhelming, I am somewhat blaming my room size, but also the fact I usually do not listen at very loud levels.

E.g. for example the Jurassic Park - Trex or KungFu Panda - Skadoosh sound fairly good, but I am still struggling to detect that effect Irene from Black Hawk Down has (it is somewhat completely missing for me), or the scene in WotW, where the pods emerge I would really appreciate some more rumbling.

maybe I just need to boost my volume up much higher. I usually don't listen too loud, and my receiver setting is around -35 (+/- 5db depending on movie)

I am thinking to try boosting the sub channel (gain on sub or receiver channel setting), and set crossover to 50hz to maybe get a louder bass / larger effect, but I am not sure that is the best idea. I have not yet tried this.

Having spent some time trying to decide whether to upgrade my subwoofer (to maybe V1500 or VTF-15h ..) or try a transducer I decide to give the BK LFE a go. I ordered the kit and should be arriving in a week.

Maybe in a year or two, I could try upgrading to a V1500 or V1800 if I still find the effect lacking and have the budget to do so.

My viewing position is from a sectional leather sofa (about 3-4 seats) in the middle of the room (about 11 feet from screen / front speakers).

I may need to argue with my wife about removing the fabric underneath my sofa too, so for starters I may just try the plate under a leg approach.

Few questions I had, that am I debating around

1. Would the K28 isolators that come with the kit (I ordered an extra 4-pack) work, or do you normally need to get larger / stronger isolators ? I guess I can give it a try and have a run to my local hardware store if needed.

2. Would one LFE be enough for the sectional with 2-3 people seating, or should I order a second one BK LFE ? Especially because the corner section is somewhat detached and just slides in two metal connectors that connect it with the main section.
Albeit, I may just try avoid seating in the corner section :)

3. If connecting two, would I wire them in parallel or series, I am worried if parallel might tax the amp too much and reduce its lifespan ?

4. Is there that much difference for plate under a leg vs inside-sofa mounting ? if indeed much better, I may try to convince my wife to open the fabric up, and try to mount it inside.

4. Also contemplating to maybe try mounting under the floor in crawl space .. that way I would not have to have speaker wires running from front to my sofa (I might be able to get them through wall plate / wall cavity / into crawl space). But while it may be a more elegant solution, I am worried I may need 2, or even more transducers in that case. I also worry about any potential damage to walls / windows etc .. as well as the vibrations going all over my rancher style house (it is seating on a suspended floor throughout, with crawl space underneath)

Thank you for any inputs !
 
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#2 ·
Hello alextr75. Looks like you have a nice system there and on a suspended floor to boot! :) I used to have the Polk RTI series as well and really liked them. Especially for movies!

Even with your suspended floor and one PB-1000, I think you will definitely have to listen louder than -35 to get what your wanting. That said, IMHO the Buttkicker LFE will help A LOT!

On your size of couch, I'd go with at least two of them. I think you'll really like the Buttkicker LFE's if set up well. IMO, set up is key. If they are not, they will most definitely ring the gimmick bell and you probably wont like them very much.

I have a 3 seat leather couch (relines on the side seats) and run both Dual Crowson Shadow 8's and also dual Buttkicker LFE's on this one couch. They each have there strengths and I love both for different reasons! I've made some good upgrades over the last couple of years to my HT in the living room, but I think the transducers have been the coolest and most fun additions that I've made! I'm in a large room and on a concrete slab, so its hard for me to get a lot of tactile feel without either listening really loud and or running a nearfield sub. I dont really use the trandsducers much with music, but I wouldn't ever want to watch movies again without them, especially at lower listening levels! Even with a nearfeild sub, which I use most of the time, they still make a huge difference. There effects aren't as noticeable the closer you get to reference on the master volume, but it sounds like you don't listen very loud anyway. At night I have to listen at about -30 MV or it'll wake up the wife and little one up stairs. At this volume level, what the transducers add is absolutely incredible! It feels like the whole house is shaking with bass, but when you stand up, its not. They keep me out of a whole lot of trouble :)

I may be able to help on a few of your questions:

1. I think those isolators should work fine. If not then bigger sturdier ones can be ordered from parts express or Amazon: Buttkicker RI-4-PAK medium kinetic furniture isolators.

2. You can start with one Buttkicker to see if you like it. Then add more if you feel the need. I definitely noticed a difference going from one to two (more shake and less noise). Noise from the piston can be bad if you turn them up to much. It seems ridiculous but I wouldn't mind adding even more Buttkiker LFE's and Crowsons to help keep up with the subs a little easier when I occasionally have the system cranked to silly levels. I do love me some serious shake, as long as the subs are going too :D Gotta have both!

3. Wire two in parallel so the amp see's them as one Buttckicker.

4. From what I've read there is a HUGE difference between mounting under a leg vs mounted to the sofa. So I didn't even mess with mounting under a leg and instead mounted directly to the frame of the couch. I hear you about the wife probably not being to keen on removing fabric etc underneath the couch, so I did my install when she wasn't home and all is good ;)

5. Not sure as I'm on a concrete floor. I've heard that they can be really good mounting under the floor towards the middle if your fortunate enough to have a suspended floor or a good riser.

A few things to keep in mind. Like I mentioned earlier, If you don't set them up right, I don't think you will like them much. If set up well, then I think they can make a tremendous difference and you'll probably love them! When I first tried the Buttkickers, I wasn't a huge fan because I didn't have them set up very good. I even sent them back to Amazon and got Crowsons instead. After reading in the Crowson thread I learned how to optimally set them up and loved the Crowsons. Recently, curiosity got the best of me so I tried the Buttkicker LFE's again and loved them in conjunction with the Crowsons. The two together are pretty killer. They make movie watching way fun and add so much to the experience! Unless I'm listening pretty loud (~ -20 MV and above) where the bass is just pounding the crap out of me, its somewhat boring without the Buttkickers and Crowsons helping out.

If you go with the Buttkickers, here are a couple things that I would recommend you do for setup:

1. If not mounting under your floor, mount to the inside of your sofa and not under the couch leg, like you would a Crowson transducer. You can use a 2x4 or piece of metal to bolt the Buttkicker to (I used a 1/4" x 6" x 20" piece of iron). Then bolt that to your couch.

2. Use the Sub out on your Blu-ray player, (I use an Oppo 103) instead of the sub out on your Receiver. This way the Buttkicker level is not directly tied to your master volume on the receiver. This may seem like a good idea at first (and some do set it up this way and like it), but I hated it. IMO the intensity can get way to strong to fast or the opposite set up this way (unless you listen at close to the same volume all the time). Also if you use the sub out on you player, then it is not subjected to any room correction from Audyssey or what ever you use. I run my transducers though a miniDSP for a bit of EQ. This gives complete control over which frequencies you might want to bump up or decrease. For the intensity I set the gain on the amp (Buttkicker BKA-1000 - one for the Crowsons and one for the BK's) and leave it. Then adjust the intensity to desired level with the volume control on the Oppo remote. I find unless I'm listening at around -20 to 0 MV on the receiver, it sometimes is not a set and forget kind of thing. If I'm listening real loud, I usually have them about as high as they'll go (meaning a ton of shake but still efficient/not out of control and not making awful noise). But its quick and easy to adjust on the fly depending on material, how loud your listening and how intense you want the transducers.

3. If your on carpet, be sure to use plywood under the rubber isolators. This will make a big difference.

4. Last but not least, in fact this may be the most important one, make sure you get the timing set right. You want those things hitting at the same time as your subs do, or at least as close as possible. The delay is just something that you'll have to play with. I think is most easily set with music. Its pretty easy to tell if the timing is off, even if its just a little bit. If you don't get this right, its terrible and they call instant attention to them selves instead of blending in seamlessly. Once you get the timing and intensity right, it should seem like it your subs are doing everything.

This is probably more info than you want but I hope it helps you out.

I've attached a few pics to give you an idea of how I attached the Buttkickers. You can also use Google image to see some different installs.
 

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#3 · (Edited)
Thanks SBuger, that was indeed very helpful.

Nice idea about waf for fabric removal, I may seriously consider doing that :)

Even though, from all I have read, I am a believer that with enough transducers under a suspended floor, the effect would be much more natural and immersive, for now I am thinking I will likely start with mounting directly to the couch.

- I believe under the floor it will definitely require more transducers than I would need for directly mounted to couch
- I believe wife might be somewhat concerned if I mount something that would directly shake the floor
- I also think this way, being the first time using it, I would have an easier time being able to get a feel of how much I can drive it, as maybe I would not be able to hear it bottoming out if hidden in the crawl space underneath.

The couch is seating on the laminate flooring, so I will just try the K28 isolators for now.

Now the big question of one vs two transducers.

From what I have read, two would help with getting enough shake while not bottoming out, and I was somewhat ready to maybe order a second one.
But, I believe I may gain more if I start with a proper setup as opposed to just wiring two transducers in the current setup.

In particular I mainly watch movies from Netflix through my Roku 3 connected to the receiver.
I do have a BDPS1200 blu ray player, but watching Netflix through it is rather slow, and more importantly it does not have any analog audio outputs.

So I would be forced to use the LFE preout from my 7.1 receiver.
That makes me wonder if for now instead of a second transducer, I may need to consider getting a blu ray player that would have a sub out.

A miniDsp 2x4 or something similar is probably also a good idea to be able to adjust the delay.
Is it a miniDsp 2x4 that you use ?
I am not able to find this sold in Canada, so would either need to shop across border, or find some alternative.

Looking up Oppo 103, I find the price being quite high ($500 USD, $600 CAD), so will probably spend some time finding a cheaper alternative to this too.

Turns out, I may need to invest somewhat more than initially planned :)
 
#8 ·
I am still not sure if something is correctly setup here.

I think listening to -30 (especially in the evening) would be so loud, it would not just wake up the kids & wife, but most likely wake up some of the neighbours too :)

Listening to -20 (-10), I have never even tried this, but to me that sounds like it would irritate most of the residents in the neighbouring houses and probably be painful to listen for me too.

Maybe it is just that I am in rancher style house, maybe in a basement suite, sound is well contained, and ears adapt with time, but as is for me now in the living room, the most I am brave enough to try would likely be around -25, and I doubt wife will let me play that loud for more than 20-30 seconds anyway.

To setup the levels, I used a Scosche SPL1000F SPL meter, adjusting the channel levels to achieve 75 dB on the meter as per the instructions on my receiver - Pioneer SC-1227-K (while the receiver is emitting test tones for channel level adjustment)

With this, as I mentioned above levels of -30 or above would just not pass the WAF.

Could also be I am just getting old , haha.

I have read conflicting info on the buttkicker so far, from gimmicky and unnatural, to the best upgrade one has ever done. I guess I will give it a try and add my experience here after.

Still looking at the DSP, I may need to just order the miniDSP and get it across the border, I am not that far from it anyway.

But the Oppo 103 seems like too much to invest for just this one purpose. I may just for now drive it through my receiver + miniDSP, and be forced to play with the gain / volume more often (which I know will start becoming annoying after some time :) )
Yeah something could possibly be setup wrong, but then again maybe not if your setting up your channel levels with and SPL meter. Does your receiver have an auto setup that you could run. If so, that will set all your distances/delays and speakers levels for you and should be pretty close to where you want them. -30 can seem kind of loud on certain material especially if your room is reflective. Also you may have a lot of top end frequencies/treble going on that are out of balance with the rest of your system. I know my ears are pretty sensitive to the high frequencies, so after I run Ausyssey XT32, I usually pull them down a couple db or more (Onkyo will let you do this). Some frown upon doing this but it works for me, and it is way easier on the ears at louder volumes.

As far as putting the miniDSP in the mix, I wouldn't worry about that right now. I probably shouldn't have even brought that up. I just like to tweak stuff :) You'll be just fine without it. What amp are you going to power the Buttkickers with? The Buttkicker Amp works great with it, but you can use and Inuke 1000 or 3000 like some use around here. If you get the dsp model then that would take care of your EQ needs on the Buttkicker if you ever desire. On second thought, if your receiver doesn't have two separate sub outs to set delay/distance for your sub and one for the buttkicker, that might not work so well. Then again it might work with whatever distance you have for your sub. I use the delay settings on the Oppo itself for the transducers. If you do end up getting a MiniDSP, be sure to get the balanced version. That's what I use to EQ the transducers. I also have the unbalanced version but the output sensitively is not a strong enough signal for the Buttkicker amp to work right. I hate the pheonix terminals though. There is a couple tutorials online that show you how to make your own cables.

Yes ...the Oppo 103 is pretty pricey! I thought I would never pay that much for a blu ray player, but I've had a couple lesser players crap out on me so I finally just bit the bullet and paid it, before I even had the Tranducers to use the sub out on it. For now just set it up through you receiver sub out and then if you like the effect the Buttkickers create, then later on you can pick up an Oppo or something a lot cheaper with an analog sub out.

As far as conflicting stories from gimmicky and unnatural to ...oh they are the greatest thing I've ever done to my system, this is very true. Some hate them and some love them. I'm of the later big time. You may hate them, but you wont know until you give them a try. I do think that proper set up is KEY!! When I didn't have mine set up really good, I did not like them. Now that I do, I love'm and wouldn't want to be without them for movies. I think it all boils down to getting them to blend in with your system and not call attention to themselves. They pretty much need to work as an extension to you subs IMO -- Hit at the same time as your sub(s) and not be to aggressive compared to where your sub levels are at. Ideally you want (and everyone else) to think that your subs are creating everything that you are feeling. From my experience this is not a super easy task when you first to messing with these transducers. But to me, the extra time invested to learn what is needed and then implement, its well worth it in the end.
 
#4 ·
Hmmm, I have a pair of Buttkickers i bought 15 years ago. Never hooked them up now cause I have a lot of bass in the room. Maybe I'll try them again for just a little extra kick. Some of my friends have asked if I have them hooked up because the couch shakes so much in intense bass scenes. Bass is addictive-I can never seem to get enough. They would have to be integrated seamlessly. I also have a spare miniDSP and an Oppo 103. When I used them before I always liked them but they lacked a natural feel. Your suggestions for setup are good.
 
#9 ·
+1 on the bass being addictive! I've got the sickness bad! When I need my bass fix, I have a JTR Cap 2400 that I put directly behind me with the driver firing right into the back of my seat. As brutal as it can be when cranked, I still want more sometimes. As much money as I've spent on this whole transducer setup, I could have built 3 18" subs that fire directly into each of my three seats. In fact, thats what I'm getting ready to do hopefully in the next couple of months, and move the Cap back up front. I'm still keeping my Buttkickers and Crowsons though :D

Yeah if you have the Buttkikcers already you might as well give them a go and run them though your Oppo. Since you are already getting intense shake from your subs, you may not even find that they add much if you listen pretty loud. They would probably help out at low levels though.
 
#5 ·
Incorporating a Buttkicker to my living room system was the single most impactful addition to my in-home movie-watching experience, so I would definitely recommend it. You gain a lot more headroom when the buttkicker is attached directly to the frame of a sofa; the plate under a leg simply isn't that efficient in transmitting the vibrations. My buttkicker was bottoming out during the low-frequency sweep in Edge of Tomorrow using the plate-under-a-leg install. When I switched to direct coupling, I was getting significantly more vibration and had plenty of power to spare.
 
#6 ·
E.g. for example the Jurassic Park - Trex or KungFu Panda - Skadoosh sound fairly good, but I am still struggling to detect that effect Irene from Black Hawk Down has (it is somewhat completely missing for me), or the scene in WotW, where the pods emerge I would really appreciate some more rumbling.

maybe I just need to boost my volume up much higher. I usually don't listen too loud, and my receiver setting is around -35 (+/- 5db depending on movie)
The F*ng Irene scene takes capabilities down to around 7Hz IIRC, your current sub simply isn't capable of that particular helicopter effect. Getting more from the pod emergence you'll have an easier shot at. I wouldn't expect much from my subs at a MV of -35 even with my 4 large subs (3 x 18" sealed and a dual opposed sealed 15") boosted and running DynamicEQ....but get it up to -20 to -10 range and the pod scene is a lot more fun but the F*ng Irene scene I'd need a much smaller room so I could pressurize it better (I'm in a large living room open to dining/kitchen areas, total of about 6500 cuft).

I recently installed a Clark transducer in a couch similar to yours, just under my seat for now. It wasn't that hard to carefully remove the fabric lining the bottom, removing staples was a bit tedious but reinstalled with a staple gun easily enough. Definitely helps at lower volumes to get a bit more tactile and holds its own somewhat even with the volume raised.
 
#7 ·
I am still not sure if something is correctly setup here.

I think listening to -30 (especially in the evening) would be so loud, it would not just wake up the kids & wife, but most likely wake up some of the neighbours too :)

Listening to -20 (-10), I have never even tried this, but to me that sounds like it would irritate most of the residents in the neighbouring houses and probably be painful to listen for me too.

Maybe it is just that I am in rancher style house, maybe in a basement suite, sound is well contained, and ears adapt with time, but as is for me now in the living room, the most I am brave enough to try would likely be around -25, and I doubt wife will let me play that loud for more than 20-30 seconds anyway.

To setup the levels, I used a Scosche SPL1000F SPL meter, adjusting the channel levels to achieve 75 dB on the meter as per the instructions on my receiver - Pioneer SC-1227-K (while the receiver is emitting test tones for channel level adjustment)

With this, as I mentioned above levels of -30 or above would just not pass the WAF.

Could also be I am just getting old , haha.

I have read conflicting info on the buttkicker so far, from gimmicky and unnatural, to the best upgrade one has ever done. I guess I will give it a try and add my experience here after.

Still looking at the DSP, I may need to just order the miniDSP and get it across the border, I am not that far from it anyway.

But the Oppo 103 seems like too much to invest for just this one purpose. I may just for now drive it through my receiver + miniDSP, and be forced to play with the gain / volume more often (which I know will start becoming annoying after some time :) )
 
#11 ·
The rugs should help a lot. 7 db difference on all your channels is a lot. It amazes me sometimes what just 5db more does if it already seems loud.

Yeah your receivers 2 sub outs are probably acting like a Y slitter instead of 2 separate sub outs. One thing to keep in mind is that the miniDSP will only allow up to 7.5' distance/delay (I wish it would allow more). It depends, but most likely you'll probably want your distance set some somewhere between 0 and 2' for the Buttkickers. What is the distance set at on your sub?
 
#12 · (Edited)
I just tried the auto level setting and using the SPL I get 68dB when the receiver sets them (which corresponds with the 7dB difference in the channel settings)

I just played a bit with the distance and placement of the sub, find a couple of things a bit confusing.

I tried two spots

1. Based on sub crawl, best response on pink noise and SPL
2. Based on aesthetics, I get about 2-2.5 dB less here compared to sub crawl position

The distances (physical as measured with a measuring tape vs receiver detected) are as these (roughly):

1. Sub crawl: 14' meas. / 19' detected
2. Aesthetics: 11' meas. / 14' detected

Now I now there is a difference between physical and receiver detected because of the DSP in the sub itself, but not quite sure why the difference is less in the second position.

Either way, the way I see it is as:

At some point (based on distance setting for the sub, the receiver will output the signal on the pre-out output on the back of the receiver (where the Y splitter is).

From here the signal goes two routes
1. To powered sub, through amp and driver, and to listener as a sound
2. To BK amp, through transducer to listener as a vibration

The first path is going to take about ~ 14ms (based on the second position above)
So the second signal (assuming no delay introduced by processing in BK amp, or BK transducer, is going to reach the listener as a vibration ~14ms earlier.

In reality I hope there is going to be some delay introduced by the BK amp / transducer, but I am not really sure if this is the case, and if so by how much.

With a 7.5ms delay in the miniDSP, I will still be about 6.5 ms off, and the only way I can see about it is moving the couch closer to screen / speaker, or moving the sub closer (with about 6.5' to cover)

Moving the sub closer will make the room layout not look very nice, moving the couch closer might be doable.

Currently I am about 12.5' from screen (120" screen), it won't be a problem to move it to maybe around 10' (I probably would not want to go closer than that).

I would still be about 4' off though.

At that point I can either consider moving the sub maybe one more foot forward (will somewhat visually protrude), or just hope on any DSP delays introduced by the BK amp.

Sounds like it is going to be tight.

That said, the balanced miniDSP is currently out of stock at their web site and shows as 1.5 months expected time till next batch.

I was wondering if the Behringer FBQ100 (Automatic feedback destroyer) might be used instead. Similar price, in stock on Amazon, and reading its manual, it apparently can set a delay up to 2500 ms, although not quite sure yet what the resolution is, and if it is a setting that can be memorized. Looks like most folks around here use the miniDSP.
 
#13 ·
Well that sucks about the mini being back ordered. Not familiar with the Behringer that you mentioned but it may work fine. Maybe someone else will chime in about it.

Moving your seating up may help a little like you said if need be. My seating used to be about 12' as well but I've got it a little less than 11' to the screen now. I didn't move it for distance or frequency issues, I just wanted it closer to the screen so the image would be a little bigger. I have a 120' as well. Over time, I just seem to want bigger bigger. I'd move my couch even a little closer but my inwall surrounds start getting a little far back for my tastes.

It may work out that you don't need to fiddle with the delays much at all between your sub and BK's.

They way I have my sub delays setup in relation to the transducers doesn't seem real logical to me but works great. I have two subs - one at 12' away in the far corner and one directly behind my chair at the MLP with driver pretty much touching the couch. Audyssey set this nearfield sub to 7.8' and the farfield sub upfront to 17'. For the transducers, I then set my speakers distances in the Oppo Blu ray player to what they actually are (I probably don't even need to do this, but it does effect the the sub delay a little) and then set the sub to 23'. This seems to be perfect but 17' works pretty much just as good. I can shut either sub off as well and the one sub left on seems pretty much perfectly timed with the transducers. SO, you may be just fine with having them both set at 14' or whichever distance you go with on our sub. A few feet might not matter that much. Only way to know how much it'll effect your frequency response as well is to measure with REW etc.

You'll just have to hook it all up and just play around with it. It took me a while to get it right.

Also it probably doesn't matter much, but i have to use 130 ms overall delay to get voice sync right in relation to the projector. Seems to work great for the TV as well. I just set the delay on the Oppo. If I set it in the receiver it seems to mess with the Transducer timing a bit differently, as well as subs and lip sync. Weird, but with enough playing around I eventually found what seems to work nearly perfect for timing of everything.
 
#14 ·
Thanks again. As you mentioned I will have to just play with it as is (after mounting to the frame).

I will try repositioning the sofa closer, maybe move the sub around, to at least try to minimize the delays for now or just get it to a somewhat acceptable feeling.

If needed, I may later consider the miniDSP when its back in stock, if I think it may really help.

Just three more days, can't wait (if the Friday's estimated delivery date is correct).
 
#17 ·
Yeah they probably are the original ones. If you decide that you don't like'm or don't feel you need them since you already have a lot of shake going on, let me know. I'd probably be interested if you ever wanted to sell them.
 
#18 ·
Adding Buttkicker Mini LFE's to my HT seats

This is from my July post... I'm still enjoying the Buttkicker's immensely! One of the best HT additions I've done.


Hello members,
I have successfully added a Buttkicker system to my four Southampton HT seats so thought I would give a review of my experience.
First off this is my first experience with any type of transducers. I chose Buttkicker Mini LFE's after reading many reviews and articles. I would of liked to of purchased the next step up (Advanced or full size LFE's but size and cost left me with Mini's). I also purchased the Buttkicker BKA1000-N Amplifier putting out 1000 watts (250w per Mini). My final amp settings are: Low Cutoff Filter Off (allowing all frequency down to 5Hz), High Cutoff filter On (I set knob at 50Hz), Volume knob at a touch above 9 o'clock (about 1/4 volume).
I'm on a cement floor with normal plush carpet and pad. I was hoping everything would work fine. I put in my Demo Blu-Ray of bits and pieces of movies and music with low frequency. I was not very impressed. To start feeling what I was hoping for, I had to start turning the volume up and that caused the Mini's to start bottoming out with an annoying clanking sound. I thought to myself, I made a mistake and I should of spent more money and bought the Advanced or full size LFE's, but size would still be a problem with my current platform I built. Which by the way is a 9" x 6" x 1" board bolted to the frame and wood back using (6) 1/4" diameter bolts (3 lag bolts for wood frame and 3 bolts and nuts for steel frame). I contemplated returning the Mini's and upgrading but thought I would try isolation first. I purchased (26) Penn-Elcom 9106 Rubber Cabinet Feet 2.5" Dia. x 1" H from Parts Express ($1.53 each) and (26) E.V.A. Anti-Vibration Pad, 3" x 3" x 7/8" from SupplyHouse.com. ($1.15 each) (The reason for 26 and not 24, the first seat has two armrest so need 8 for that seat) So, including bolts, nuts, and washers it cost about a $100 to add isolation, but well worth it!
The way the Southamptons are made, there is a height difference of 9/16" between the small hard plastic feet that are attached to the steel frame and the large hard plastic feet that are attached to the wood armrests. This is because the metal frame is designed and built 9/16" lower than the wood armrest frame. So, when I went with all the same size large rubber feet I had to add 9/16" to the rubber feet on the wood armrest (10 thin fender washers was perfect). I used 5/16" diameter bolts to attach all rubber feet, no drilling or modifications needed. I used all existing holes and screw threads.
The rubber feet made a huge difference! It felt good! I probably could have left it like this but decided to take it one step further and add the isolation pads. This also made a noticeable difference. No more bottoming out and they work and feel great! The Mini's are more than enough when you have good isolation from the floor.
The bottom line is, isolation makes a huge difference! You don't want a transducer trying to move the earth, just your chair.
Note: This added about 1.5" in height to the chairs. I didn't say anything to my guests and no one has noticed.
I've included a few pictures.
 

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#19 ·
This is from my July post... I'm still enjoying the Buttkicker's immensely! One of the best HT additions I've done.


Hello members,
I have successfully added a Buttkicker system to my four Southampton HT seats so thought I would give a review of my experience.
First off this is my first experience with any type of transducers. I chose Buttkicker Mini LFE's after reading many reviews and articles. I would of liked to of purchased the next step up (Advanced or full size LFE's but size and cost left me with Mini's). I also purchased the Buttkicker BKA1000-N Amplifier putting out 1000 watts (250w per Mini). My final amp settings are: Low Cutoff Filter Off (allowing all frequency down to 5Hz), High Cutoff filter On (I set knob at 50Hz), Volume knob at a touch above 9 o'clock (about 1/4 volume).
I'm on a cement floor with normal plush carpet and pad. I was hoping everything would work fine. I put in my Demo Blu-Ray of bits and pieces of movies and music with low frequency. I was not very impressed. To start feeling what I was hoping for, I had to start turning the volume up and that caused the Mini's to start bottoming out with an annoying clanking sound. I thought to myself, I made a mistake and I should of spent more money and bought the Advanced or full size LFE's, but size would still be a problem with my current platform I built. Which by the way is a 9" x 6" x 1" board bolted to the frame and wood back using (6) 1/4" diameter bolts (3 lag bolts for wood frame and 3 bolts and nuts for steel frame). I contemplated returning the Mini's and upgrading but thought I would try isolation first. I purchased (26) Penn-Elcom 9106 Rubber Cabinet Feet 2.5" Dia. x 1" H from Parts Express ($1.53 each) and (26) E.V.A. Anti-Vibration Pad, 3" x 3" x 7/8" from SupplyHouse.com. ($1.15 each) (The reason for 26 and not 24, the first seat has two armrest so need 8 for that seat) So, including bolts, nuts, and washers it cost about a $100 to add isolation, but well worth it!
The way the Southamptons are made, there is a height difference of 9/16" between the small hard plastic feet that are attached to the steel frame and the large hard plastic feet that are attached to the wood armrests. This is because the metal frame is designed and built 9/16" lower than the wood armrest frame. So, when I went with all the same size large rubber feet I had to add 9/16" to the rubber feet on the wood armrest (10 thin fender washers was perfect). I used 5/16" diameter bolts to attach all rubber feet, no drilling or modifications needed. I used all existing holes and screw threads.
The rubber feet made a huge difference! It felt good! I probably could have left it like this but decided to take it one step further and add the isolation pads. This also made a noticeable difference. No more bottoming out and they work and feel great! The Mini's are more than enough when you have good isolation from the floor.
The bottom line is, isolation makes a huge difference! You don't want a transducer trying to move the earth, just your chair.
Note: This added about 1.5" in height to the chairs. I didn't say anything to my guests and no one has noticed.
I've included a few pictures.
The kit I ordered does come with some (I believe smaller) rubber feet and I am still not sure if they will be big enough.
But I am hoping the floor being laminate, with crawl space underneath, may make the transducer's job somewhat easier.

That said, I am still waiting for the package, Canada Post shows the estimated date as Friday Dec 4th, but the status is still in transit.
I'll wait maybe until Tuesday or so, and if no updates, I'll give them a call.
 
#21 ·
Well they've attempted delivery today, in the only 30 minutes when no one was at home. I'll go pick it up from the post office tomorrow after work.

That said, in preparation I removed the fabric from underneath the sofa to see what the situation looks like.
There are some boards running along and under the middle seat that I am thinking screwing a 1x6 board to.
There is still about 3 inches from the bottom of the cushion to where the board would be, and I believe (well hope) it won't hinder the seating experience.

I was hoping to then fasten the transducer up side down to the 1x6.
But I am not sure whether there would be enough clearance downwards to the floor.
Rough measurements show there would be about 6" from the 1x6 board to the fabric and base (I may staple the fabric back on), and then maybe one more inch to the floor (if the isolators are 1" high)

Would this be enough for the top of the transducer to not hit the floor ? I believe I've read it's about 5.5" high, but not sure how much it moves during the shaking.

Another concern I have is it seems the two boards I want to attach the 1x6 to, are not perfectly aligned, so the 1x6 may not be perfectly horizontal.
Would this hinder the operation of the transducer, does it have to be straight up or down (if pointing down even works) ?

Maybe I should consider attaching a board to the base instead (somehow), and mounting it pointing up. That way maybe it will be somewhat straighter.
 
#22 ·
Yeah that would probably be enough clearance. I don't think they'll move a 1/2" (I may be wrong though unless you have the gain on the amp cranked - the shake will then likely be way to much and the pistons will be making that awful sound. If it is not quite enough clearance though, you could always add a little something extra (small piece of plywood, etc) between the isolators and the floor. Or you can use a 1/4" metal plate (although not as easy to deal with as wood) like I did instead of the 1" piece of wood. That would allow for a tiny bit more clearance.

I would think the BK's would work best as horizontal as possible, but then again it might not make that much difference at all as long as they are not to far slanted.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Great way to start the experience.

Just as I was planning to leave work earlier, I got stuck at a sudden meeting that lasted for about two and a half hours.
When the meeting finished around 7 pm, I rushed to my car, getting ready to drive straight to the post office.

Turned the car key, and .. nothing .. car battery died, lol. I guess after 8 years it could have used a replacement.

Went to security at reception and they happened to have a car battery booster, but alas no one knew how to use it.

Luckily I found a coworker who hadn't yet left, that happened to have jump cables in his car, so we managed to jump-start it, drove off to my home to get my wife's car (with a working battery :) ), and from there to the post office. Got there 15 minutes before closing, phew :)

So I had not much time left to be able to install the transducer to the sofa yet, I have yet to go buy the 1x6 and do the installation.

But I did put it under the sofa leg that was right in the middle. that is right under the middle seat, using the couch kit / plate.
I put the K28 isolators under the remaining legs, and connected everything.

Well good news, everything seems to be operational.

I can certainly get used to this I think. Even after only 10 minutes of testing some demo scenes with it, I went back to the other room where another movie was playing on an older TV, and there was a scene with some thunderstorms. I immediately felt that experience was somewhat bland .. those thunderstorms were missing the tactile feeling I just had experienced in my living (HT) room.

I tried a few demo scenes I have laying around for testing bass, namely

Kung Fu Panda – Skadoosh (some nice effects here and there)
Iron Man – Jericho Missile (I was wowed ..)
How to train your dragon – Super Dragon (good effects all around .. it really makes you feel more connected with the action)

Had my receiver at -35, and the BK amp at ~10' clock. High cutoff - ON at 40, Low cutoff - OFF.
I have not yet experienced the bottoming out, but did not really test it for too long.

I wish I get to test more scenes, but getting too late and I have to get my kid to sleep, so until I get an Oppo or something similar to drive my BK AMP with a separate sub analog out, I won't be able to use headphones with it.

I have not yet experienced the delay, and as it is right now, I do not think I would be able to properly adjust it even if I do get a miniDSP. I could maybe get a better feeling by playing around with it, but even as is, it feels pretty good.

That said, right now the sub is right behind my sofa, so maybe that's why it currently is not too much of an issue.

But one thing I sort of hope could be better is that most of the shaking seems to be similar (like either on or off).
There is certainly variations now and then, like I can feel some minor vibrations at times, but I mainly feel the big ones (an explosion, earthquake, etc ..)
I do hope I get more variety for various effects.
Now, this could either be
- I haven't tested enough movies and scenes that could provide this variety, or
- The fact that I have not yet mounted it directly to the sofa frame, or
- Maybe I just need to increase the gain (though I think it feels pretty good where it is)

I am also thinking to maybe get a 2x6 for the direct mount as opposed to a 1x6, this thing is heavy, I still feel so sorry for that girl in the post office dragging the box out.

Few questions I had

- Do you turn off the BK AMP by using the ON/OFF switch when not being used ?

- Do you have some recommended movies / scenes that I could use for testing things like

  • Variety of effects (small rumbles, big vibrations .. not sure yet what I am looking for but I guess just a set of different types of effects)
  • Bottoming out
  • Anything that would feel very unnatural if timing sync with the subwoofer is off (too much delay etc ..)

Thanks !
 
#24 · (Edited)
Sounds like a rough start but at least you got it picked up and got to try it out.

If you didn't experience any delay/timing issues, then that's great. You might not even have to mess with that much at all.

Well, it sounds like you like it at least somewhat. That's good ....it can only get better with fine tuning. I've never tried the BK under the leg of a couch, but directly mounted should definitely be better. Yes, the BK LFE is pretty heavy, so a 2x6 would work better I think.

I always try to turn mine off when not in use if I remember. I think the manual might have said to do that but cant remember for sure. That's good that its not bottoming out. It may never bottom out on you since you'll probably never want to turn it up real high since you don't listen real loud. You want it to stay balanced with the amount of bass in your room and your listening level. Even if you listening at the same volume levels all the time, some movies are just recorded with really hot bass. On these movies I have to turn my bass down a bit as well as the Buttkickers and Crowsons to feel real balanced. Transducers are easy to turn down (or up) on the fly though with the volume control on the Oppo if you ever decide to go that route. The BK's are super sensitive (at least compared to the Crowsons) and doesn't take much increase on the gain to increase the intensity.

I think the variation that you would like more of may be better once you get the Buttkickers mounted to your chair. What I've found is that the BK's are not as powerful above 27 HZ as they are below that. So you might not be feeling much in that area. Does your receiver EQ your bass? If so then its adjusting the frequencies of the BK's as well since your using the sub out on your receiver. It could be diminishing or emphasizing the frequencies below 40hz. They should all feel a bit different. One thing you can do if you ever decide to go with an Oppo or some player with an analog sub out and a miniDSP is to adjust some of the frequencies to your liking. Maybe up the ones above 27 hz a bit (the ones I feel are lacking a bit on the BK, at least compared to the Crowsons). You can play test tones from 5 to 40 to get a feel of what going on and what our EQ setting are doing.

The movies you tried out are some good ones.

I have a hard drive with about 100 mkv files from blu ray movies. I went through about 30 today just watching a few clips from each. Here's a couple off the top of my head that were downright amazing with the Buttckickers , Crowsons and subs going (I watched everything at about -15 MV, with subs 6-8 db hot on average). I did have to adjust the subs and tranducers down a bit on a few of the movies that have crazy hot bass though (Interstellar, Tron and Underworld Awakening)

Pacific Rim
Hellboy II
Serenity
Thor (1rst one)
Underworld Awakening
Oblivion
Pixels (last part of the movie)
Man of Steel
War of the Worlds
Knowing (train wreck scene)
Terminator Salvation
Tron Legacy
Interstellar

All these should give you quite a bit of variation from the transducers that your wanting. If you cant get it with the Buttkickers mounted to your couch and maybe even a little dsp on them, then you might consider trying some Crowsons instead. But they are more expensive. I bet you'll be happy with the BK's though once you get them mounted to your couch and play around with them for a while :)
 
#25 · (Edited)
I had it mounted to the couch about two days ago, difficult to say whether it has changed much compared to just using the leg-plate, but I did not have much / long experience with it before mounting so not fair to say.

I also got a Samsung BD-J7500 BD player that has 7.1 analog outs to have the BK directly connected to.
Wish I could have gone for the Oppo-103D, but the price difference ($600 vs $200) is too difficult for me to justify at the moment, budget got really strained. Maybe when they come out with a nice 4K player I could upgrade to Oppo and upgrade my Epson 2030 to a nice 4K projector too :)

The Samsung has speaker distance settings, so I tried to put the sub setting much closer than the other speakers in hopes to delay the output somewhat. I was testing against some songs and I do think it made a difference, it is really negligible to know if its placebo or not by just trying to listen to it, but I think the vibrations / shakes just feel like a more comfortable sensation this way.

Watched the The Incredible Hulk, and wow was it good to feel those sonic cannons.
Battle LA, some really nice shaking when the alien fighters were dropping artillery to the ground.
And, Cloverfield, definitely a movie that needs a transducer, very thrilling experience.

I also increased my High Cutoff Frequency to about 80Hz (from the more commonly used 40Hz), and I feel that this way I got a bit more effects and variety, to better meet my expectations. I know most don't agree with this being set so high, and could cause a nuisance with certain types of sounds or deep voices, but I haven't had that happen yet. So far it works pretty good for me, with time I can further tune it up or down as needed I guess.

I (think) got it to bottom out once, but I just lowered the gain a nudge, and replaying the same scene was fine after. That was so far the only time it happened.

One downside to this though, it sort of shows me how much I am / was lacking in bass. You can definitely recognize the moment when you should be hearing that great rumble, but not much happens audibly.
I found I have to maybe run the sub about 7 dB hotter, to be able to start hearing any decent amount of bass.
Could be just my listening levels are really low, maybe for now I should really just run the sub hot.

Maybe next year I could aim for a better sub, but I am really worried it may not help much in my room.
I am currently following Tyrindor's thread who seems to have very similar experience (and room) to mine but with a much more expensive equipment to begin with.

But definitely happy with the BK, I can certainly see myself maybe in a year or two longing for a second BK or maybe even a Crowsons.
 
#26 ·
^^^

That's great that your happy with your BK! I thought you probably would be. They can make movie watching a whole lot of fun and really have a way of connecting you to the film.

Doesn't really matter what's common, if you like an 80Hz high cuttoff then that's all that matters! You can always set it lower easily enough if and when you want to.

I don't blame you at all for going for a little cheaper player. I was going to mention the Samsung or Panasonic but you already got'r done. $600 is a lot IMO, even if it is great a player. For a little more, you can build a couple 18" subs and an Inuke 6000 to power them. I've been spending a lot of time in the DIY section making plans for some builds this winter. Since your wanting more sub, this may be a good option for you as well in the future. Woodworking is not my thing, so the flatpacks are really encouraging.

Yeah, I been kind of following that thread as well. Do you have any measuring equipment? (Mic and REW etc). I've got an UMIK-1 mic and REW. Its one of the best things I've ever done to see what was going on with my bass and to get the most out of it. I cant image not being able to use it. It was a bit of a learning curve but so worth it! If you don't already have it, I would strongly encourage you to add it to your arsenal when can and start learning it. You may find that you don't, but I actually love tinkering with all this stuff :) I like trying to get the best performance and bass experience possible out of my subs, and even the transducers. It's all part of the addiction I guess :)
 
#27 ·
This may be a bit derailing from the topic, but probably still best place to ask as we are already on it :)

Woodworking is not my thing, so the flatpacks are really encouraging.
I actually looked into this a bit, but just a bit, I am not much of a handyman myself, so at one point I just kind of gave up on the idea with the notion that I am sure to mess up something in the process, and end up buying a prebuilt sub anyhow. Especially since I read somewhere that ported subs are even more difficult to build for beginners, and in my room a ported sub would definitely be what I need. Then realizing I would probably spent north of a $1000 on a prebuilt sub, I decided to just try a BK for now, lol.

Though, now you made me curious, what are the flatpacks you mention ... do you have any recommended links for reading or info where they could be purchased (if its something that can be purchased :) ) ?

I for sure would need to do more searching through this forum too.

Yeah, I been kind of following that thread as well. Do you have any measuring equipment? (Mic and REW etc)
I was actually looking into it just today .. I am kind of set on getting the UMIK but then realized miniDSP is really what is needed to have something to act upon the REW results anyway, so might just get both. But the balanced version is out of stock still, and I think it may be a better buy. You mentioned it would be preferred for the BK because of the output gain, not sure if would really benefit a more common subwoofer amp, but might as well just to be sure.

I don't yet know whether I will use it for the the BK, right now its not really needed for it, because I can adjust the delay, although maybe less precise, through the BD player.

The unbalanced version is in stock, but the balanced still shows 1.5 months estimated time for more stock .. so sadly would have to wait for some time .. maybe a good opportunity to research more on flatpacks .. :)
 
#28 ·
The flatpacks are shipped to you with everything cut and ready to assemble for the cabinet. You just mainly need clamps and wood glue to put it together. Maybe even a nail gun if you want to speed up the process. There's a video in the Marty Sub thread on a Full Marty being put together. There is a lot of great info in that thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1648673-martysub-faq.html

If you want ported, then one of the Marty subs is probably what you'll want to build. You can get flatpacks for the ported Marty sub or a flatpack for a sealed.

Ported
Marty Sub Flatpacks:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-audio-gear/1982873-martysub-flatpacks-back.html#post33799697

Driver that can go in either
Dayton UM18-22 18" Ultimax sub:
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-um18-22-18-ultimax-dvc-subwoofer-2-ohms-per-coil--295-518

Sealed
Dayton UM-18-22 18" woofer and flatpack bundle
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-18-ultimax-subwoofer-and-cabinet-bundle--300-7099

There is some great info in the FAQ's sticky at the top of the DIY section of the forum that is really good. Also there are a lot of threads you can follow of DIY builds that are great to learn from. There's a little more to it than just putting the box together but hopefully wont be to to difficult with all the info and helpful folks around here. I gonna try an AIY 18" sealed behind each of my 3 main seats. Hopefully I can get them to play nice with my ported cap moved up front. If not then maybe use the drivers in 3 of the ported Marty Cubes.



The miniDSP - Yeah you'll probably want the Balanced version if possible so your output signal is high enough for the amps that are needed to power your subs if you end up building one (or more). I have an unbalanced and a balanced. I use the unbalanced on the Rythmik FV15HP. It seems to work fine but I do loose about 7-8 db. I compensate this on the amp gain. I don't think this would work as well on the JTR Cap 2400 amp. I have it pretty much on max as is. Running it through the Balanced minidsp I actually gain a couple db. Audyssey reads the sublevel at about 86db which is great because it sets my sub trim to about -9.5 after calibration. I like to bump the sub trims up usually 6-9 db hot which puts me a around 0 or a little less.

If I use the unbalanced for the Crowsons, I don't think the output signal is quite enough. I have the Buttkicker BKA-1000 set at about 11:00 with the balanced and then adjust the intensity through the volume control on the Oppo remote. If I use the unbalanced, then I pretty much have to max out the amp gain to get about the same amount of intensity and then it still doesn't feel quite right. The unbalanced may work ok on the BK's though, as they are a lot more sensitive compared to the Crowsons. I have the amp gain on a differnt BKA-1000 set at about 9:00. Probably safest just to wait until the Balanced version are available. When I bought my first miniDSP, I also ordered the mic with it.

Since you wanted to feel more rumble, I think you made a good choice to add a Buttkicker for now and add more subs when you can, whether you choose another good ID brand sub or choose to do a DIY or AIY. At the moment, I've got a pretty capable sub system (not as good as a lot of the bass heads around here with piles of DIY 18's or bigger in a good room, but still pretty darn good). I've got a ported JTR Cap and a Rythmik FV15HP and usually always have one or the other firing directly into my back and the other upfront (I swap them from time to time). They hit me pretty hard, but even so, the Buttkickers still add to the experience!
 
#29 ·
Thanks for all the links and info SBuger, I have tons of stuff to read now in that MartySub FAQ.
One thing that bugs me though is the price to build a maybe a MiniMarty with the Dayton and an iNuke 6000, would maybe cost me around $950 or so. A new PSA V1800 is $1300.

Definitely cheaper by using the flatpack, but still a considerable chunk of money, so need to put some more thought into this.

I posted a question for this in DIY section to see what others may have to say

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/2246338-martysub-vs-psa-v1800.html

Thanks again for all the help !!
 
#30 ·
No problem ...glad to help!

I hear you on the PSA V1800! Very tempting to me as well. A pretty small box for a ported 18" and tuned to 17hz. I would love to put one or three of those behind each of my seats in addition to the JTR Cap I have up front. But then again that's like $3900 worth of subs if I bought three. If I build with flatpacks and amps I can do it for about $2000 (still not chump change, but way cheaper though). In your figures, don't for get that with the Inuke 6000, you can power two subs. So even though the first one will cost you a little more because of the amp, the second will cost only for the sub since you can power it with the other channel on that amp. Pro's and cons to both I guess. With the PSA V1800, the amp is already in the sub in a nice neat little package and shows up on your door step in a couple of days :) And I'm sure its and awesome sub. But I've already spent so much money on this hobby that if I want to keeps adding more subs, I've got to find a cheaper way to do it. I think that's one of the reasons a large majority of the mega bass junkies around here usually end up going the DIY route for extreme bass that wont entirely break the bank. Who knows though, maybe I'll just sell the 15" Rythmik (I need an 18" with more power), buy just one V1800 for behind my seat only and be done with it for now. Then someday when I can get a dedicated room (hopefully), build about 8 18" sealed subs like some if these guys for a pretty reasonable amount of money.
 
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