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post #1 of 89 Old 01-31-2016, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
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$1000 Budget for Subwoofer Sub help

So I need help finding a stronger subwoofer that I can feel.
My 10+ year old 100w Energy S8.2 drops to 27Hz and sounds pretty good but I just don't feel the vibrations.
I have a $1000 subwoofer WAF budget including shipping fees.
My living room is open concept, measures 12w x 15d x 8.5h, and is missing the right and rear walls .
My main goal is near field vibration impact (12-18Hz) and since the room is 100% tile floors it does not need to be too powerful.
DIY is an option if I can save a ton of money and get similar <19Hz performance.

I have read many threads here about HSU, PSA, SVS, etc. but can't find anyone who has experience with a sub choice in an open living space. Thanks

Setup:
Denon 4200
Martin Logan LX16 floor speakers
Energy Sats for Height speakers
Energy s8.2 subwoofer (to be moved to the bedroom)
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post #2 of 89 Old 01-31-2016, 09:18 PM
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Due to the canadian to US dollar conversion build a sealed uxl-18 and buy an inuke 3000 or 6000 dsp. Should run you around $900 with all parts and paint.
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post #3 of 89 Old 02-01-2016, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrick View Post
So I need help finding a stronger subwoofer that I can feel.
My 10+ year old 100w Energy S8.2 drops to 27Hz and sounds pretty good but I just don't feel the vibrations.
I have a $1000 subwoofer WAF budget including shipping fees.
My living room is open concept, measures 12w x 15d x 8.5h, and is missing the right and rear walls .
My main goal is near field vibration impact (12-18Hz) and since the room is 100% tile floors it does not need to be too powerful.
DIY is an option if I can save a ton of money and get similar <19Hz performance.

I have read many threads here about HSU, PSA, SVS, etc. but can't find anyone who has experience with a sub choice in an open living space. Thanks

Setup:
Denon 4200
Martin Logan LX16 floor speakers
Energy Sats for Height speakers
Energy s8.2 subwoofer (to be moved to the bedroom)
Have a very similar room size and floor plan. Received a bunch of great guidance here, as well as talked to the manufacturer and got the same specs. I ordered a HSU Research VTF-3 MK5 HP. Total cost shipped was <$900 and based on reviews and specs should hit around 18 Hz. It's shipping this week and I'll be hopefully configuring over the weekend. May be worth looking into.
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post #4 of 89 Old 02-01-2016, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrick View Post
My living room is open concept, measures 12w x 15d x 8.5h, and is missing the right and rear walls .
Quote:
My main goal is near field vibration impact (12-18Hz)
DIY is the only chance you have of getting anywhere near your goals for $1K.



Quote:
and since the room is 100% tile floors it does not need to be too powerful.
What acoustic theory are you basing this statement on?


Quote:
I have read many threads here about HSU, PSA, SVS, etc. but can't find anyone who has experience with a sub choice in an open living space.
A quick Google search reveals a plethora of threads on the subject.

https://www.google.com/search?q=subw...w.avsforum.com


I have an open concept room myself (~5000 cu. ft.) and have ended up with 2 PSA T-18s + 2 PSA S3000s to get to where I wanted to be....and could still use more. Of course, I have a sickness, so YMMV.
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post #5 of 89 Old 02-01-2016, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
What acoustic theory are you basing this statement on?

I thought this thread might get lost in the ether so I am glad it's still on life support. So you mean that if I have a down-firing sub hitting a floor covered in plush carpeting that it will be the same experience as a tile floor? Good to know.

When I was a younger man 30 years ago I had the same prognosis but with car sickness (PPI, Memphis, RF, Alpine, etc), but sickness aside and considering WAF, what do you think about the Rythmik sub I found below that states "There are two positions for 1 port operation which extends to 12hz" and costs $900 shipped

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...ubs/fvx15.html

I could build my own but to avoid wasting a day and getting similar results what are your thoughts? I currently have a 100w sub that is loud enough and rattles picture frames, will this one give me the same loudness at the lower frequencies so wife and I can enjoy more realism without breaking the windows? Thanks
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post #6 of 89 Old 02-01-2016, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrick View Post
I thought this thread might get lost in the ether so I am glad it's still on life support. So you mean that if I have a down-firing sub hitting a floor covered in plush carpeting that it will be the same experience as a tile floor? Good to know.

When I was a younger man 30 years ago I had the same prognosis but with car sickness (PPI, Memphis, RF, Alpine, etc), but sickness aside and considering WAF, what do you think about the Rythmik sub I found below that states "There are two positions for 1 port operation which extends to 12hz" and costs $900 shipped

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...ubs/fvx15.html

I could build my own but to avoid wasting a day and getting similar results what are your thoughts? I currently have a 100w sub that is loud enough and rattles picture frames, will this one give me the same loudness at the lower frequencies so wife and I can enjoy more realism without breaking the windows? Thanks
That's a great sub but in order to really feel its sub-20hz capabilities you may need it nearfield but it should help you find more rattles to tame in any case (try a dab of putty where a picture frame touches the wall). Your set-aside space isn't what your sub reads so very unlike the cabin gain you got in a car. You might also think about putting a transducer or two underneath your seats for some shaking that won't need the whole space pressurized. I use both multiple subs and a transducer to help with my large space (about 6500 cuft).
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post #7 of 89 Old 02-01-2016, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrick View Post
I thought this thread might get lost in the ether so I am glad it's still on life support. So you mean that if I have a down-firing sub hitting a floor covered in plush carpeting that it will be the same experience as a tile floor? Good to know.
In order for your carpet to make any difference at all, it would need to be several inches thick.


Quote:
When I was a younger man 30 years ago I had the same prognosis but with car sickness (PPI, Memphis, RF, Alpine, etc), but sickness aside and considering WAF, what do you think about the Rythmik sub I found below that states "There are two positions for 1 port operation which extends to 12hz" and costs $900 shipped
You're not going to get usable output at 12hz in that size room without many multiple sealed subwoofers. The keyword here is "usable"...sure, the Rythmik (a GREAT sub BTW!) will go down to 12hz, but without enough cabin gain, it's useless.


Quote:
I could build my own but to avoid wasting a day and getting similar results what are your thoughts?
A day? You're a funny guy.


Quote:
I currently have a 100w sub that is loud enough and rattles picture frames, will this one give me the same loudness at the lower frequencies so wife and I can enjoy more realism without breaking the windows? Thanks
So, apparently your request for "impact at 12-18hz" in your OP was a bit misleading ....if all you are looking for is what you describe in the sentence above, the Rythmik will literally blow you away.
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post #8 of 89 Old 02-01-2016, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfahnestock View Post
Have a very similar room size and floor plan. Received a bunch of great guidance here, as well as talked to the manufacturer and got the same specs. I ordered a HSU Research VTF-3 MK5 HP. Total cost shipped was <$900 and based on reviews and specs should hit around 18 Hz. It's shipping this week and I'll be hopefully configuring over the weekend. May be worth looking into.
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk5HP.html

Yep I spotted that one too and it has a compelling 600w amplifier, please let me know your experience when you get it set up. It looks similar to the Rythmik too, so I guess on the surface it's choosing the importance between HSU 600w @ 18Hz vs Rythmik 400w @ 12Hz.

PSA also looks good and helps the American economy, just wish they had the v1500 at $900 since it does 14Hz.

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/colle...products/v1500
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post #9 of 89 Old 02-01-2016, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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A day? You're a funny guy.
Just need a couple extra days for finishing touches - okay so technically 3 days but you get me. My garage is fully outfitted but rarely used.
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post #10 of 89 Old 02-01-2016, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrick View Post
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk5HP.html

Yep I spotted that one too and it has a compelling 600w amplifier, please let me know your experience when you get it set up. It looks similar to the Rythmik too, so I guess on the surface it's choosing the importance between HSU 600w @ 18Hz vs Rythmik 400w @ 12Hz.

PSA also looks good and helps the American economy, just wish they had the v1500 at $900 since it does 14Hz.

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/colle...products/v1500
Again, do not...I repeat DO NOT expect any usable output below ~18hz in a room that size with a single sub. Just not gonna happen....well, unless you are literally sitting on it.

Go with whatever has the most 18hz+ output that fits your budget and you'll be a happy camper.
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post #11 of 89 Old 02-01-2016, 06:47 PM
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I'd start with a Dayton UM-18 flat pack kit from parts express and an inuke 6000dsp. Should run maybe $800 for everything. Then you can add an other when you want and run it off the 2nd channel of the inuke. The 2nd sub will only cost a few hundred more since you already have an amp.


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post #12 of 89 Old 02-03-2016, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I'd start with a Dayton UM-18 flat pack kit from parts express and an inuke 6000dsp.
Something to consider even though Fs is at 21.2Hz and F3 I believe is at ~27Hz

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=58

Thanks Bear for your recommendation though it's not exactly what I was going for. I want to feel the hidden <20Hz frequencies rather than hear the >20Hz from 2 blocks away. What DIY sub can you recommend that can handle 10Hz for movies like Edge of Tomorrow and the like? Budget is $1000 for everything, since I already maxed my cc with the stuff in my sig line. Thanks

I will have to dust off my workshop since it's buried
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post #13 of 89 Old 02-04-2016, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrick View Post
Something to consider even though Fs is at 21.2Hz and F3 I believe is at ~27Hz

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=58

Thanks Bear for your recommendation though it's not exactly what I was going for. I want to feel the hidden <20Hz frequencies rather than hear the >20Hz from 2 blocks away. What DIY sub can you recommend that can handle 10Hz for movies like Edge of Tomorrow and the like? Budget is $1000 for everything, since I already maxed my cc with the stuff in my sig line. Thanks

I will have to dust off my workshop since it's buried
Sounds like maybe one of the LLT subs might be closer to what you want https://www.google.com/#q=llt+subwoo...e:avsforum.com
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post #14 of 89 Old 02-04-2016, 01:00 AM
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Everyone here should be required to hear a 20hz test tone at their listening level before they decide to go down the rabbit hole for any lower FR. Once i heard it i thought "yep, this is uncomfortable and more than good enough!"
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post #15 of 89 Old 02-04-2016, 02:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by emcdade View Post
Everyone here should be required to hear a 20hz test tone at their listening level before they decide to go down the rabbit hole for any lower FR. Once i heard it i thought "yep, this is uncomfortable and more than good enough!"
I've heard 23Hz, so just curious and want to feel 10Hz-12Hz since I read there are a few movies that use this FR. I would also love to DIY a cab as I have seen a few free templates online and that would save me $75-85 over a flat pack, then source the woofer before I can build it. Problem is space so it's gonna be either a ported 15 or a sealed 18, and not sure wife will approve a 2nd sub. Thanks for everyone's help
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post #16 of 89 Old 02-04-2016, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrick View Post
. What DIY sub can you recommend that can handle 10Hz for movies like Edge of Tomorrow and the like? Budget is $1000 for everything, since I already maxed my cc with the stuff in my sig line. Thanks
Big difference in building a $1000 sub that can "handle" 10hz frequencies and one that can produce enough output for you to be able to feel 10hz.

Chasing usable 10hz output for $1000 might be OK if you put everything in a 6x8x7 bathroom. A single $1000 sub, even a DIY, is not going to get you what you want in that room.

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post #17 of 89 Old 02-04-2016, 02:36 PM
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There's no reason not to get usable output at 18hz with one subwoofer as long as the enclosure is big enough to properly load the cone at that frequency. Which means no sealed options work. It does however mean you might need to go PA woofer. Those have limited xmax, but are cheap per unit of xmax, both in money and how much wattage is required to reach their xmax at low frequencies. You may only need 200 watts to reach 6mm xmax on a 18" PA woofer, but to "load" that cone area on such low frequencies you need a big enclosure. As big as if it has 20mm xmax. But, you could have four 18" woofers run by one inuke 3000 for about 1 grand. In any case, xmax is only important outside the tuning frequency. So if you make some efficient horns loaded with PA woofers, you would likely exceed a normal vented enclosure with high xmax subwoofers.
if however you have wife acceptance factor to worry about, I can only suggest you make an entire 10 seat sofa to hide a massive subwoofer horn in. Low frequencies require huge enclosure volumes to be efficient, or you'll throw grand after grand after it. I have 130db from 1 meter from 30hz up in my 2 channel system. I made the choice to not chase db below that frequency this time around, because the 100 liter (3.5cf) enclosures would spiral out of control if I tried to reach further down. (the white ones)

200 liters to reach to 20hz wasn't uncommon in the designs that was efficient enough to pull over 120db a piece from 1 meter (0.5 x pi, so corner placed). 400 liters to reach to 10hz was an understatement. Anyone who says they have tons of output with less liters in enclosures must not know what big output is.
Unless you're building yourself a subsofa I suggest getting some shakers attached to your existing seating arrangement.
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post #18 of 89 Old 02-04-2016, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ronny31 View Post
I suggest getting some shakers

I think I will just forget about 10Hz, so I've narrowed my search to getting a sealed sub. My current options are:

1. 19Hz for the SB-2000 with 300rms for $699
2. 21Hz for the UM18-22, DIY flat pack, Behringer 3000dsp plus paint and other supplies for ~$800 plus 20 hours of labor.
3. 19Hz for the PSA s1500 with 725rms for $999
4. Any other options I should look at?

Regarding a shaker. Do they shake the sofa horizontally, vertically or all of the above? What brands should I look at?
Thanks
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post #19 of 89 Old 02-05-2016, 02:14 AM
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You can have the sofa on some rubber bricks and have shakers in every axis you want. They are essentially speaker drivers without enclosures, with a weight instead of a cone, then you just connect them to an amp that is fed by the subwoofer signal.
No idea on specific brands however, someone else can help with that.
I'd get a good vented DIY flatpack instead of a closed one though, costs the same basically, and you can always screw the vent closed at first and then open it when you want more output. That saves you what half the people on here has done; gone from closed 18" to vented 18" because they wanted more bass.
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post #20 of 89 Old 02-05-2016, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrick View Post
I think I will just forget about 10Hz, so I've narrowed my search to getting a sealed sub. My current options are:

1. 19Hz for the SB-2000 with 300rms for $699
2. 21Hz for the UM18-22, DIY flat pack, Behringer 3000dsp plus paint and other supplies for ~$800 plus 20 hours of labor.
3. 19Hz for the PSA s1500 with 725rms for $999
4. Any other options I should look at?

Regarding a shaker. Do they shake the sofa horizontally, vertically or all of the above? What brands should I look at?
Thanks
Are those lower limits of extension all reached at the same spls? If not they're somewhat meaningless to compare with.

For tactile transducers try Clark, Buttkicker, Aura, Crowson....
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post #21 of 89 Old 02-05-2016, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Subwoofer Frequency Homework

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Are those lower limits of extension all reached at the same spls?
OK so I did some Data-Bass homework and at 12.5Hz:
98.5dB Rythmik FV15HP (one port), $1200
94.0dB Dayton UM18 (sealed) ~$800 (including NU6000dsp amp, DIYSG flatpack, accessories and DIY labor)
93.5dB HSU VTF-15H Mk2 (one port) ~$1000
89.3dB SVS PB13 Ultra (ported) ~$2000
88.6dB SVS SB13 Ultra (sealed) ~$1600

At 10Hz:
90dB Dayton UM18 $800
83dB SVS PB13 Ultra $2000

PSA: I cannot find any of their current designs independently reviewed. The XV15se looked good but has been discontinued.

So it seems to a noob like me that at 10Hz Bear is right on the money with the Dayton if you have time, some tools, a clean work space and a place to fit a large cabinet with an 18" sub in your HT. If 12Hz is acceptable then the HSU seems like a good value because it is about the same price, has a smaller foot-print, and avoids incurring a few days of sweat equity. The Rythmik also seems like a great value if you play music really loud since it hits much harder with 98.5dB, but since Sound & Vision gave the HSU a perfect score, I would get the HSU imo.

Is this a good assessment or am I missing something?

Last edited by Carrick; 02-05-2016 at 01:40 PM.
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post #22 of 89 Old 02-05-2016, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrick View Post

Is this a good assessment or am I missing something?
You need far more dbs than what is listed in order for frequencies that low to be usable (felt). I don't know how much exactly but the need for greater dbs increases dramatically as the frequency drops.

For your budget you should concentrate on getting the most output you can in the upper teens.

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post #23 of 89 Old 02-05-2016, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
For your budget you should concentrate on getting the most output you can in the upper teens.
Thanks for your reply, my budget is limited to $10k and it's fast approaching, hence I have about $1500 left before WAF brings me back to reality
So putting input at the higher frequencies and going for the most output would then steer me to the Rythmik for $1200. My concern is that Data-Bass had a weird comment about the ports compressing but not sure if that's been addressed since this design is 5+ years old.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=51&mset=49
"Unfortunately the single 3" port can't cope with the output of the 15" driver and compresses a lot while also contributing a lot of wind noise at the highest output levels."
"The distortion performance is decent but could be better."

16Hz:
105.1dB SVS PB13 Ultra
104.0dB Rythmik FV15HP
100.6dB HSU VTF-15H Mk2
92.6dB SVS SB13 Ultra

The Dayton was not measured at 16Hz.

20Hz
109.2dB SVS PB13 Ultra
108.3dB Rythmik FV15HP
105.0dB Dayton UM18
104.1dB HSU VTF-15H Mk2
96.5dB SVS SB13 Ultra

Last edited by Carrick; 02-05-2016 at 03:59 PM.
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post #24 of 89 Old 02-05-2016, 04:15 PM
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If you can do $1500 then you likely can't beat 2 of the UM18s with an inuke 6000dsp. They will blow you away (as will any other sub you are looking at) compared to the sub you had. Chasing those super low frequencies in a room your size with your budget simply won't happen...you have to be realistic. $1500 will get you really close to 2 of the SI HST18s, but you'd really need a bigger amp than the inuke which would kill the budget.

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post #25 of 89 Old 02-05-2016, 04:35 PM
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If you are looking to get the most output for $1500 from ID sub companies, currently the top 2 choices are: RA Echo 18 ( $1400 shipped ) and JTR Cap 118 HT ( $1440 shipped ).

CEA 2010 Max Burst 2M RMS GP------- 16 Hz-------20 Hz-------40 Hz-------50 Hz

RA Echo 18 -----------------------------~ 105 dB--- ~111 dB---~120dB---~121.3 dB
JTR Cap 118 HT------------------------ ~ 105 dB-- ~109.1 dB--~120dB---~121.3 dB
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post #26 of 89 Old 02-05-2016, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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If you can do $1500
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
If you are looking to get the most output for $1500 from ID sub companies, currently the top 2 choices are: RA Echo 18 ( $1400 shipped ) and JTR Cap 118 HT ( $1440 shipped ).
Thanks for both your replies but I have never hear of any of these companies until I came to AVS so it's all new to me. I am more familiar with car audio. So to get a HT sub I was actually trying to keep things closer to $1,000 so I can get a Samsung UHD player and a few movies. cc has a $10k limit and 0% for 2 years. After that I can look into a 2nd sub. That might have been TMI, but quite honestly my salary is considered lower middle class, but I do like nice things.

Wishing I could find some Data-Bass testing on the PSA models (15s, 15v, s1500, v1500, s1800) since they are priced around $1k. I called them yesterday but did not get a call back today and just left them a text message, so let's see if they respond by Monday. The Dayton seems like a pretty good deal with a lot of potential, just not impressed with the Behringer 6000 amp reviews.
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post #27 of 89 Old 02-05-2016, 06:24 PM
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If you can do $1500 then you likely can't beat 2 of the UM18s with an inuke 6000dsp. They will blow you away (as will any other sub you are looking at) compared to the sub you had. Chasing those super low frequencies in a room your size with your budget simply won't happen...you have to be realistic. $1500 will get you really close to 2 of the SI HST18s, but you'd really need a bigger amp than the inuke which would kill the budget.
I think the UM18 flatpack is out of stock right now. But 2xUM18 + 6000dsp is $1200 + maybe $100 for tools/paint. DIY is better value for money if you can build yourself and deal with external amp, no warranty and low resale value.
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post #28 of 89 Old 02-05-2016, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I think the UM18 flatpack is out of stock right now. But 2xUM18 + 6000dsp is $1200 + maybe $100 for tools/paint. DIY is better value for money if you can build yourself and deal with external amp, no warranty and low resale value.
Thanks for your reply. I can build the boxes myself from scratch and save another $150, I have everything and it's very simple to make a cube. But headaches come with port placement/tuning and band pass enclosures. Though I do take issue with no warranty & low resale value.
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post #29 of 89 Old 02-05-2016, 06:51 PM
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Thanks for your reply. I can build the boxes myself from scratch and save another $150, I have everything and it's very simple to make a cube. But headaches come with port placement/tuning and band pass enclosures. Though I do take issue with no warranty & low resale value.
If you are building a sealed sub though then there are a lot less variables. In any case there are well known designs over in the DIY forum (such as the Martycube/Johnny) that are well tested by many. It sounds like you are no stranger to Diy so that route can definitely save you money.
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post #30 of 89 Old 02-05-2016, 07:05 PM
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Resale also isn't too bad from what I see on the classifieds section here. Most people seem to get a pretty good bit for their DIY subs. I was surprised. And the drivers and amps have a warranty individually.

Front L&R: Polk RTi A3 (cherry finish)
Center: Polk CSi A6 (cherry finish)
Surrounds: Polk FXi A6 (black finish)
Subwoofer: SVS SB12-NSD
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TV: 55" LCD
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