Below 17 Hz with 4 JTR Caps in a a 10,000 cf room? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 32 Old 06-12-2016, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Below 17 Hz with 4 JTR Caps in a a 10,000 cf room?

Posting this here and in JTR thread:

I currently have four JTR Cap 1400's in our theater area on hardwood over cement slab floor. It's open on two sides to a 39 ft x 49 ft open space that's approx 10,000 cu ft in volume. I also have an unfinished Danley DTS-10 that I built before buying the four Captivators.

Room gain is normally 12dB/octave starting at the frequency where the longest room dimension is 1/2 wavelength. A wavelength in feet is the speed of sound (1130 feet per second) divided by frequency. Therefore, I don't expect to get any appreciable room gain until approx. 11.53 Hz (49 ft x 2 = 98 Ft, 1130/98 = 11.53 Hz.)

I am looking at options to increase extreme ULF below the 17 Hz roll off on the Captivators and beginning of room gain at approx. 11 Hz:

Theater Layout




Option # 1 - Crowson Tactile Transducers ($2,499 Level 3 motion system)

I will probably end up adding tactile transducers no mater which option I choose because of the inherent limitations in a room this size on a concrete slab floor However while transducers alone might give the "appearance" of extreme ULF through tactile response, it will not give the sound pressure that I was hoping for without the augmentation of true spend pressure ULF under 17 Hz.




Option # 2 - Two more Quad JTR Captivator 1400's ($4,599 teak finish)

Get two more Captivators in addition to the four I already have. I'd stack two at the front between the FR/FWR and F/FWL speakers and keep two at the rear behind the sofa. Cap's do have some response below 17 Hz and with enough of them in the room, maybe I can get the sub 17 Hz response up to reference levels.




Option #3 - Danley DTS-10 ($1,000 teak veneer finish)

Finish the DTS-10 and try to integrate it with the four Caps. My wife wouldn't let it into the living room until I veneered it it in teak to match our other furniture, so in the garage it sits. the DTS-10 would need to be veneered at a cost of about $400 for 2 sheets of premium qtr teak and $600-$800 for labor and finishing. I already have a QSC 4050HD amplifier to drive it. The plan would be to put it in the front right corner where we were going to build a media cabinet to hold BluRays and LP's. This could be problematic with phasing issues between the tapped horn and multiple ported subs.




Option # 3 - Deep Sea Sound Mariana 24 SR Sofa Table ($3,999 teak finish)

The Deep Sea 24" can be built as a sofa table in teak and would have the highest WAF (plus having the main LP aprox. 12" in front of a 24" woofer would allow for sone serious near feels tactile response). It would get placed directly behind the sofa underneath the rear center channel.




Option # 4 - Dual UXL-18 Sofa Table Sub ($990 drivers + $1,100 custom cabinet in teak finish)

The sofa table with dual UXL-18's might offer the same textile response as the Mariana 24" at a reduced cost (I'd have my cabinet maker build it to get the same furniture grade finish). It would get placed directly behind the sofa underneath the rear center channel. I'd use the QSC 4050HD amp I was planning on using for the DTS-10 or have to buy another amp if I did both options.




Option # 5 - Dual Reaction Audio Gamma 21's ($3,599 black + $600 custom teak cabinet). I would have to make a teak cabinet open at the front and back to enclose the dual Gama 21's. It would get placed directly behind the sofa underneath the rear center channel. Recent problems on the RE thread here at AVS give me some pause at this option.




Option # 6 - JTR S2 ($3,399 teak finish). This would most closely match the "voicing" of the other JTR products in my system, plus JTR could make it in the exact Teak finish they used on my other subs. It would get placed directly behind the sofa underneath the rear center channel.


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post #2 of 32 Old 06-12-2016, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
[B][SIZE="4"]If it were me...based on my experiences...

Output is not an issue for you with the 4 Cap1400s. Check the box on output.

Sounds like what you're wanting is extension, by way of a sub placed nearfield. IMO, sealed 2ft away probably won't get you the TR you're looking for from a 15hz and below perspective. I've read that nearfield sealed are very effective, especially when the driver is almost touching your HT seating. 2ft may not sound like a lot, but I do think that matters quite a bit for sealed designs.

Given that, the sub that I would select would be a low tuned, ported design. That pretty much limits you to two subs commercially available: Cap4000ULF and the FV15HP

Sounds like the CapULF doesn't meet your size requirements, but I believe 2 FV15HPs do (18x24x24) fit. Additionally, Rythmik is coming out with the FV25 in the late summer, and should rival the CapULF from 20hz to 12hz, and then the CapULF will pull away below that. The advantage with the Rythmik is that it is a much smaller footprint compare to the CapULF...likely the size that you're looking for.

Of course, I say all of this without have a good idea what happens to TR in a huge space like yours...but there's only one way to find out.
@Peterc613 , did you ever see my above post? I think this would also be a viable option.
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post #3 of 32 Old 06-12-2016, 06:40 PM
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I would still say to consider a pair of HzHorns (or something similar to work with the available drivers), firing directly behind the couch. With all that airflow there has to be some significant tactile. Commission @asarose247 to build them; he definitely has the experience to build them. Veneer them to match, and add some nice custom printed acoustic panel artwork for aesthetics/WAF. HzHorn

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post #4 of 32 Old 06-12-2016, 07:10 PM
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If you want to extend below 17hz, don't consider option #2 where you get two more subs with a limited bandwidth.


Get some Crowsons or switched to all sealed.
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post #5 of 32 Old 06-12-2016, 08:40 PM
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Do you have any frequency response graphs from your MLP? Have you tried moving one of your cap1400's directly behind your MLP?
If you like the tactile response from the nearfield placement, I would opt for lesser powered subs in that position. Perhaps consider an fv15hp's (tuned 12hz).

Or if veneer was an option on the Cap4000ULF, then that little guy who get my vote

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post #6 of 32 Old 06-12-2016, 09:03 PM
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Hey that's one good looking gamma 21!

7.4 w/ denon x4100
JTR noesis 228s LCR
Ascend acoustics cmt 340se side ss.
ascend acoustics cbm170se rear ss
dual reaction audio gamma 21s!
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post #7 of 32 Old 06-12-2016, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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The Quad Caps get me to 120 Db at 17 Hz. The stock DTS-10 could add extension to 10 Hz. from across the room.

I think the Deep Sea Sound should be able to get me to 100 Db near field with a little room gain at 10 Hz


Quad JTR Cap 1400's




Deep Sea Sound
Stereo Integrity HS 24

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post #8 of 32 Old 06-12-2016, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
If you want to extend below 17hz, don't consider option #2 where you get two more subs with a limited bandwidth.


Get some Crowsons or switched to all sealed.
Both
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post #9 of 32 Old 06-12-2016, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lz7j View Post
Do you have any frequency response graphs from your MLP? Have you tried moving one of your cap1400's directly behind your MLP?
If you like the tactile response from the nearfield placement, I would opt for lesser powered subs in that position. Perhaps consider an fv15hp's (tuned 12hz).

Or if veneer was an option on the Cap4000ULF, then that little guy who get my vote

Yes, Jeff will make the Cap 4000 ULF in matching teakveneer for about $3,499. The only place to put it would be across the room in the left front corner where I was originally planning to put the Danley DTS-10. I was hoping to use that space to store media,

I could move the fourth Cap 1400 right behind the center LP and add a Cap 4000 ULF in the front left corner. But across the room I don't know if there will be much impact from it's 10 Hz output in such a large 10,000 cf space.

I could do the same by veneering the Danley in the front left corner and again placing the forth Cap 1400 at the center rear. It also has extension to 10 Hz.

Which would better integrate with the existing subs tuned to 17 Hz?
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post #10 of 32 Old 06-12-2016, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
Yes, Jeff will make the Cap 4000 ULF in matching teakveneer for about $3,499. The only place to put it would be across the room in the left front corner where I was originally planning to put the Danley DTS-10. I was hoping to use that space to store media,

I could move the fourth Cap 1400 right behind the center LP and add a Cap 4000 ULF in the front left corner. But across the room I don't know if there will be much impact from it's 10 Hz output in such a large 10,000 cf space.

I could do the same by veneering the Danley in the front left corner and again placing the forth Cap 1400 at the center rear. It also has extension to 10 Hz.

Which would better integrate with the existing subs tuned to 17 Hz?
You will need to evaluate your goals of wanting 10hz. My space is about 6200ft^3 on concrete with 4 x 11ft^3, tuned 16hz using HST-18's farfield, 4 x 5ft^3, 20hz with HT-18's (soon to be UXL18's) 6" behind me and 2 x 6ft^3, 28hz MBM using pa-460's. With some work, integrating the various tunes was straight forward. My F3 is about 12hz in room. The 10hz tone on EoT produces 120db at MLP but it doesn't really do anything.

On the other hand, the same 10hz tone in my 1700ft^3 and suspended family room with 4 x sealed 12's nearfield and 2 x 15's shakes the room like a crazy ape, a totally different experience with less SPL.


Try moving your cap1400 directly behind you first (outside of demos, I only have 2 subs running in my main space. nearfield makes all the difference). If you still find you're missing that wobble effect, get the Crowsons.

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post #11 of 32 Old 06-12-2016, 09:57 PM
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Transducers or Build a smaller room...I think you are chasing your tail trying to net sub 10hz extension in that massive room.
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post #12 of 32 Old 06-13-2016, 12:52 AM
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Transducers or Build a smaller room...I think you are chasing your tail trying to net sub 10hz extension in that massive room.
100% agree.
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post #13 of 32 Old 06-13-2016, 05:03 AM
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I think you will spend a lot of money to get a lot of 10 Hz output that you won't hear or feel in any appreciable way.
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post #14 of 32 Old 06-13-2016, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
If you want to extend below 17hz, don't consider option #2 where you get two more subs with a limited bandwidth.


Get some Crowsons or switched to all sealed.
^^^This

Are you going to treat your room? I looked at your pictures in the Dirac thread and that room is all reflective surfaces.
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post #15 of 32 Old 06-13-2016, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^This

Are you going to treat your room? I looked at your pictures in the Dirac thread and that room is all reflective surfaces.
May be difficult to get room treatments past SWMBO (She Who Must Be Obeyed).



It was all I could do to get her to accept 12 Martin Logans and 4 JTR Captivators. Now I'd have to ask her to take down the artwork to mount absorption and diffuser panels? Probably a long shot...
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post #16 of 32 Old 06-14-2016, 02:14 AM
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get some swatches from Gik acoustics, they have a good color palette and you could probably find some to either blend in or play off the room colors. Worse case, get some paint and flick it all over them and tell everyone they are lost Warhol's . Get "The Ring To Rule Them All", have Jeff stick some legs on it and put it behind your couch, some treatments and call it a day.
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post #17 of 32 Old 06-16-2016, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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What about adding two JTR OS Pro's? There's two for sale in the classifieds for $2,000. No more output below 17 Hz but what a top end!

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post #18 of 32 Old 06-16-2016, 01:37 PM
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Well....

Do you want more <17hz or more >17hz?
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post #19 of 32 Old 06-16-2016, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Well....

Do you want more <17hz or more >17hz?
BOTH !!!


No seriously, I'd rather have more extension below 17 Hz. Since I'm not going to get rid of all the custom Cap 1400's what do you guys think of adding a Cap 4000 ULF in place of the unfinished DTS-10? I'm sure Jeff would make one in matching Qtr Teak.

It adds more extension to 10 Hz and since the drivers are the same as the Cap 1400 it has similar response and will probably yield another +6 Db from 12 Hz to 100 Hz:









On a concrete slab floor with an open floor plan at 39' x 49' x 8'5" I don't start getting any room gain until 8.9 Hz and won't be up +12 Db until under 5 Hz....





I guess it's either adding a Cap 4000 ULF tuned at 10 Hz or tactile transducers for me!
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post #20 of 32 Old 06-16-2016, 06:38 PM
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Be sure to position the sub so that you can see the driver moving when it is playing 10 Hz content, that way you will know. Maybe have a small light shining on it set on a motion sensor. Otherwise, you may not be able to tell you are playing 10 Hz. Seriously, that's how awesome 10 Hz is.
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post #21 of 32 Old 06-16-2016, 07:10 PM
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Be sure to position the sub so that you can see the driver moving when it is playing 10 Hz content, that way you will know. Maybe have a small light shining on it set on a motion sensor. Otherwise, you may not be able to tell you are playing 10 Hz. Seriously, that's how awesome 10 Hz is.
I wish there were a product that I could buy and mount on top of my subwoofer, that was maybe a series of lights, each light would come on when a certain frequency was played, and the hotter the color of the light at that frequency - it would mean the more dBs there are at that frequency. Like a live PSD.

That way I can hear and SEE the bass.

Of course, need an on/off switch (for when it gets annoying).

Maybe a new product offering by MiniDSP?

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post #22 of 32 Old 06-16-2016, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by XBR11 View Post
I wish there were a product that I could buy and mount on top of my subwoofer, that was maybe a series of lights, each light would come on when a certain frequency was played, and the hotter the color of the light at that frequency - it would mean the more dBs there are at that frequency. Like a live PSD.

That way I can hear and SEE the bass.

Of course, need an on/off switch (for when it gets annoying).

Maybe a new product offering by MiniDSP?
That would be extremely distracting lol... Sorry haha

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post #23 of 32 Old 06-16-2016, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XBR11 View Post
I wish there were a product that I could buy and mount on top of my subwoofer, that was maybe a series of lights, each light would come on when a certain frequency was played, and the hotter the color of the light at that frequency - it would mean the more dBs there are at that frequency. Like a live PSD.

That way I can hear and SEE the bass.

Of course, need an on/off switch (for when it gets annoying).

Maybe a new product offering by MiniDSP?

We had those back in the 1970's. Each color represented a different frequency band and the volume dictated how bright the light bulbs for that color lit up. Was really interesting after partaking of some herbal essence (if you know what I mean).

Alas, it went the way of the water bed and the pet rock...







Of course you can always buy an audio indicator led VU meter music display from ebay for only $62:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RGB-32-32-Au...-/281961615405






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post #24 of 32 Old 06-16-2016, 08:20 PM
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If you really desire more output below 17hz, you should dump ALL the Cap 1400's and instead go with a couple of those 4000's or all sealed.
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post #25 of 32 Old 06-16-2016, 08:44 PM
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post #26 of 32 Old 06-16-2016, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
If you really desire more output below 17hz, you should dump ALL the Cap 1400's and instead go with a couple of those 4000's or all sealed.
Because of the 41″ x 20.5″ x 39.5″ size of the Cap 4000 ULF versus the 30″x20″x22.5″ size of the Cap 1400. the layout of my room dictates only one spot for the 4000 ULF (in the front left corner), whereas I have four spots I can fit the 1400's spaced around the room and behind the sofa.

If the Cap 4000 had been available back in 2005 when we remodeled, I would have oriented the room differently toward the glass block wall on the left and recessed the projection screen in the ceiling just in front of the fireplace. I could have fit two 4000 ULF's in the right and left corners next to the glass block. I could still do that now if we gave up one of the palm trees behind the sofa, but it would be a tough sell with my wife.

Ah... the joys of marriage.








As it is, there is shielded 1" conduit with Belden 12/4 speaker wire from the equipment closet to all the speaker locations, XLR cables to all the sub locations, and a recessed pocket for the Pioneer Kuro Plasma with a wall mount wood encased motorized screen on the front wall.

I have thought about converting the garage and building a dedicated HT room with double walls and raised subfloor, but I have no idea where all the stuff that's stored there could go.

The golden rule of garages...crap always expands to exceed available storage space
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post #27 of 32 Old 06-16-2016, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XBR11 View Post
I wish there were a product that I could buy and mount on top of my subwoofer, that was maybe a series of lights, each light would come on when a certain frequency was played, and the hotter the color of the light at that frequency - it would mean the more dBs there are at that frequency. Like a live PSD.

That way I can hear and SEE the bass.

Of course, need an on/off switch (for when it gets annoying).

Maybe a new product offering by MiniDSP?
Lights?
That is so yesteryear...

It's called a TermLab sensor in NASA mode with a 4K LCD screen wherever you wanna display it.
Try and keep up! hehe

http://www.termpro.com/storefront/magnumorder.asp



It is the sensor with the orange tape on it directly above their Laptop.
Such a thing has only existed for oh... 10 years or more now!
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post #28 of 32 Old 06-17-2016, 10:03 AM
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My suggestion is for you is to build yourself 6 sealed 18's in 4 or 6 cu ft boxes (put one directly behind each of your 6 main seats with the driver firing as close to the back of the chair a possible - so about an inch away to allow for excursion). Or even 6 Rythmik FV15HP's, but that will get expensive fast. Keep your 4 JTR cap 1400's farfield and integrate the two together (ported caps with sealed nearfields). I pretty much just did the same thing recently (on a bit smaller scale than you though - although my room is about 9,500cu ft). I put a sealed 18 directly behind each of my 3 main seats and have a ported sub up front (Johnny sub so I could have complete control over the HPF to get the sealed and ported integrated easier). As it turned out though, my ported Cap 2400 integrates just fine with the sealed if I put a BW 48/db oct HPF at 16hz (with a miniDSP) in addition to whatever HPF Jeff has implemented in the amps DSP. It may be a little different with your room, but I bet you could get them to play nice together with a little work.

The bass experience with near field subs is amazing and the sub 17hz that your after kicks butt (Crazy wobble)! You'll have to use a LS or LT to bring up the lower end but is not a problem with the subs drivers being that close to you, not to mention multiples.

In addition, I also run Crowsons and they just add to the ULF experience. I say get those as well!

You may have to do some rearranging of the stuff in the back of your room to accommodate the sealed nearfields, but the trade off would be well worth it I think if your after that ultimate bass experience.

Just another opinion, but it sure worked well for me.

My SI DS4-18 (x4) Build
AVR/Player: Onkyo TX-NR5010, Oppo BDP-103
Video: Samsung PN64F8500 Plasma, Epson 5030UB Projector, Darbee, SeymourAV 120" Retractable AT Screen
Speakers: KEF Q Series (Fronts: Q900's, Center: Q600C, Surrounds & Heights: KEF In-Walls)
Subs/TT's: SI DS4-18(x4), Inuke6000DSP(x2), BK LFE(x2), Crowson Shadow-8 MA(x2), BK Amp(x2), MiniDSP 2x4
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post #29 of 32 Old 06-17-2016, 10:12 AM
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Peter, just rock out with your quad Cap's and add a couple Crowson's. Won't take up any floorspace whatsoever and it will add to the 'feel' of ULF for your seat(s).

You obviously can't or won't make the proper choices/changes to achieve what you think you want from your system. My guess, you aren't even maxing out what you have now.
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post #30 of 32 Old 06-17-2016, 10:12 AM
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Below 17 Hz with 4 JTR Caps in a a 10,000 cf room?

I think if most people played a clean 10 Hz tone in their system, there would be almost no noticeable effect regardless of SPL. It may vary in some rooms but I think for many/most, chasing big 10Hz output provides very little effect.

I suspect many who "think" they are experiencing amazing 10 Hz tactile nirvanna are probably feeling higher frequencies that are noticeable/matter.

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