Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread - Page 188 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5611 of 6186 Old 08-14-2017, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by duffus2 View Post

Jeff might be very busy, or on vacation, but I haven't heard back from him in going on two weeks, so for all I know he might be put off by selling to someone so far away. Especially considering, as you mentioned, that he would be paying shipment in case of warranty issues (which I didn't know).
Try sending him a PM. I was in a similar situation where I emailed him and didn't hear back until I PM'd him.
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post #5612 of 6186 Old 08-14-2017, 10:34 PM
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OzHDHT

Both JTR Cap S1 and Paradigm Sub1 were not tested by data-bass, however, their big brothers, JTR Cap S2 and Paradigm Sub2 are.

Cap S2 is 4000W and 2 18" drivers in a cabinet twice as large as S1. S1 is 2400W and 1 18" driver. So S1 should be roughly -5dB from S2.

Sub1 is 1700W and 6 8" drivers. Sub2 is 4500W and 6 10" drivers. So Sub1 should be -7dB from S2

The following is the estimated output difference between Cap S1 and Sub1:



The Cap S1 is not too shabby considering it only costs about half of the Sub1.
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post #5613 of 6186 Old 08-14-2017, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
OzHDHT

Both JTR Cap S1 and Paradigm Sub1 were not tested by data-bass, however, their big brothers, JTR Cap S2 and Paradigm Sub2 are.

Cap S2 is 4000W and 2 18" drivers in a cabinet twice as large as S1. S1 is 2400W and 1 18" driver. So S1 should be roughly -5dB from S2.

Sub1 is 1700W and 6 8" drivers. Sub2 is 4500W and 6 10" drivers. So Sub1 should be -7dB from S2

The following is the estimated output difference between Cap S1 and Sub1:
I was justing going to post the Sub 2 vs Cap S2 from databass but figured someone might have so I skipped ahead and you did even better

2 Cap S1 would be a HUGE upgrade for @OzHDHT The 2 Cap S1 would be like him having approximately 4+ Sub 1s across most of the frequency response. I think he will be like if he gets 2 Cap S1.
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post #5614 of 6186 Old 08-14-2017, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
OzHDHT

Both JTR Cap S1 and Paradigm Sub1 were not tested by data-bass, however, their big brothers, JTR Cap S2 and Paradigm Sub2 are.

Cap S2 is 4000W and 2 18" drivers in a cabinet twice as large as S1. S1 is 2400W and 1 18" driver. So S1 should be roughly -5dB from S2.

Sub1 is 1700W and 6 8" drivers. Sub2 is 4500W and 6 10" drivers. So Sub1 should be -7dB from S2

The following is the estimated output difference between Cap S1 and Sub1:



The Cap S1 is not too shabby considering it only costs about half of the Sub1.
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Try sending him a PM. I was in a similar situation where I emailed him and didn't hear back until I PM'd him.
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I was justing going to post the Sub 2 vs Cap S2 from databass but figured someone might have so I skipped ahead and you did even better

2 Cap S1 would be a HUGE upgrade for @OzHDHT The 2 Cap S1 would be like him having approximately 4+ Sub 1s across most of the frequency response. I think he will be like if he gets 2 Cap S1.

Saweet guys, thanks so much for all of the feedback and data . Makes it pretty easy to justify the 2 x S1's. Wish I'd been more aware of JTR when I was building the HT in 2015, I could have skipped buying the second Sub1 and just gone over to JTR's.
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post #5615 of 6186 Old 08-15-2017, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
For the size of your hometheater I would vote for 2 S1's. Two S2's only if you are an extremely unreasonable man or an out of control basshead. That's a compliment.

IMHO, unlike ported designs, where a JTR 2400 actually goes deeper than JTR 1400 due to lower tuning freq (it's basically designed differently, for deeper bass), for a sealed design such as S1 and S2, the advantage of S2 is essentially due to having two drivers instead of one. Two S1's therefore match the S2 in output AND LF depth. ie IMHO you don't "miss" as much going from S2 to S1, versus going from 2400 to 1400.

I applaud PSA's brave move but I believe the S7201's problem is its huge/inflexible size (witness JTR 4000 and why the smaller JTR 2400 is such an incredibly appealing subwoofer). If you are going PSA I would vote for multiple smaller PSA products. Multiple smaller subwoofs will match S7201 in output, and beat it in better room distribution. (S7201's advantage is the cost saving from packing many drivers into a single cabinet.) BTW, from the picture the magnet looks not too large; does anyone know approx. Xmax of S7201's driver? Low 20's like other PSA 18 inchers, or into the 30's?
I would guesstimate they are in that low 20s of Xmax. When I did some rough calculations I came up with the 7201 will give each one around 3.5cf/14cf total. So about the same as their other sealed models if my estimations are correct so output down low should be similar and the slot loaded configuration should give them a little more output in the midbass and upper bass than a plain sealed or ported box. So overalls I would expect them to have a little more output all around that say 2 S3601. The 7201 could be modeled in something like Hornresp to get a better idea on what output across the FR would look like but I haven't messed with it much.

I think chances of it ever being tested by an outside/3rd party are slim to none unless someone like Marc buys one and tests it themselves. I predict rave reviews from people that buy them. Because how could you not be impressed by 4 18" Take everything I said with a grain of salt, they are just guesstimates.
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post #5616 of 6186 Old 08-15-2017, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
Saweet guys, thanks so much for all of the feedback and data . Makes it pretty easy to justify the 2 x S1's. Wish I'd been more aware of JTR when I was building the HT in 2015, I could have skipped buying the second Sub1 and just gone over to JTR's.
The Cap S2 is only $800 more than the Cap S1 and you get almost double the output capabilities...

If the JTR Cap S2s fit in your space, I say go for it. The freight shipping is probably not that much for the second S2. With a pair of S2s, you will be set for a long long time.

From http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=s...d=133&mset=145

GD of JTR Cap S2:


IR of JTR Cap S2:


Waterfall of JTR Cap S2


Comparing with Paradigm Signature Sub 2, which has excellent performance and SQ, Cap S2 gives you even more output, and a slightly faster and tighter sound.

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post #5617 of 6186 Old 08-15-2017, 12:14 PM
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I have liked all of the previous posts from Can, Chucky, and Bscool comparing the Sub 1 to the S1, and in a couple of cases, suggesting the dual S1's. But, I feel compelled to offer an alternative viewpoint. Any time that someone upgrades in pursuit of more, whether it is more SPL, low extension, or tactile response, it begins to raise the question of how much more will be enough? Dual S1's will undoubtedly be a significant upgrade to dual Sub 1's, but will they be a sufficient upgrade, particularly for someone who was considering one or two S7201's?

Buying two S2's instead of S1's would be a way of removing all doubt as far as I am concerned. Would the OP necessarily use all of the available output from dual S2's? Probably not, but that's sort of the object of the exercise when we upgrade. We want to be sure that we will have more undistorted output than we can ever use. If cost or placement is an issue, I can certainly make a good case for dual S1's. If they are not, I think a very good case can be made for dual S2's. Personally, when it comes to subs, I would always like to have a little more than I believe I will ever need. Just another perspective.

Regards,
Mike
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post #5618 of 6186 Old 08-15-2017, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I have liked all of the previous posts from Can, Chucky, and Bscool comparing the Sub 1 to the S1 and suggesting the dual S1's. But, I feel compelled to offer an alternative viewpoint. Any time that someone upgrades in pursuit of more, whether it is more SPL, low extension, or tactile response, it begins to raise the question of how much more will be enough? Dual S1's will undoubtedly be a significant upgrade to dual Sub 1's, but will they be a sufficient upgrade, particularly for someone who was considering one or two S7201's?

Buying two S2's instead of S1's would be a way of removing all doubt as far as I am concerned. Would the OP necessarily use all of the available output from dual S2's? Probably not, but that's sort of the object of the exercise when we upgrade. We want to be sure that we will have more undistorted output than we can ever use. If cost or placement is an issue, I can certainly make a good case for dual S1's. If they are not, I think a very good case can be made for dual S2's. Personally, when it comes to subs, I would always like to have a little more than I believe I will ever need. Just another perspective.

Regards,
Mike
Please read my post again... I didn't suggest dual Cap S1s... I only showed OzHDHT what to expect upgrading to the Cap S1s...

I suggested dual Cap S2s in post 5616...
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post #5619 of 6186 Old 08-15-2017, 12:33 PM
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I setup DIRAC on my Emotiva XMC-1 and attached is the FR response of my 118HT comparing it to manual calibration. After DIRAC, Sub SPL was the same as other speakers, so I went from 3 clicks gain to 5 clicks gain on the 118HT amp to get the +10DB boost I like.

I am now a believer in using REW and Room Correction. The difference is huge. Bass is tighter, more articulate, goes deeper with a lot more tactile response. I would say going from a Rel 10" to the 118HT got me 60% of where I am. The other 40% I attribute to DIRAC. I am still learning DIRAC as well, I have not tried any custom target curves.

In Star Wars the Force Awakens, the scene where Rey is interrogated. Wow, huge difference. Hearing and feeling things I did not feel before. Port Wind is about 3 times as much. This may be my favorite Port Wind scene.

I also like Inception, the coffee scene where she finds out she is in a dream and everything explodes. It is so tight and articulate now.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Dirac1.JPG (65.3 KB, 66 views)
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post #5620 of 6186 Old 08-15-2017, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Please read my post again... I didn't suggest dual Cap S1s... I only showed OzHDHT what to expect upgrading to the Cap S1s...

I suggested dual Cap S2s in post 5616...
I know you did. Sorry if the way I phrased that first sentence suggested otherwise. I will edit it.
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post #5621 of 6186 Old 08-15-2017, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Curves View Post
I setup DIRAC on my Emotiva XMC-1 and attached is the FR response of my 118HT comparing it to manual calibration. After DIRAC, Sub SPL was the same as other speakers, so I went from 3 clicks gain to 5 clicks gain on the 118HT amp to get the +10DB boost I like.

I am now a believer in using REW and Room Correction. The difference is huge. Bass is tighter, more articulate, goes deeper with a lot more tactile response. I would say going from a Rel 10" to the 118HT got me 60% of where I am. The other 40% I attribute to DIRAC. I am still learning DIRAC as well, I have not tried any custom target curves.

In Star Wars the Force Awakens, the scene where Rey is interrogated. Wow, huge difference. Hearing and feeling things I did not feel before. Port Wind is about 3 times as much. This may be my favorite Port Wind scene.

I also like Inception, the coffee scene where she finds out she is in a dream and everything explodes. It is so tight and articulate now.
Looking good now! It's 17~117Hz +/- 5dB.

My Cap 1400 is the 2015 model so the dials do not have detents. It is 11ft from me and I always have the gain at 12 o'clock. Is your 5 clicks somewhere around 12 o'clock? IIRC, the sub at the front location is also ~10 from your MLP, right? Then 5 clicks sounds about right. What is your LF Adjust at? Is it at Boost?

From your graph though, it looks like you are getting 10dB higher output from 18~23Hz, that is perceived twice as loud. ( 6dB is double the output when you go from 1 to 2 subs and 10dB is twice as loud ). How is the TR with the sub at the front?

It also looks like you have dips at 19Hz, 38Hz and 46Hz with the sub at the front or behind you. Maybe you can try moving your seat a few inches here and there and see if the dips will improve.
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post #5622 of 6186 Old 08-15-2017, 02:35 PM
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Hey Marc any plans to sell the FV18?
The FV18 is going to be returned to Ascend. Unless you want to buy it of course! Let me know if you want to come hear it or want to ride down to Ascend with me.
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post #5623 of 6186 Old 08-15-2017, 05:32 PM
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The FV18 is going to be returned to Ascend. Unless you want to buy it of course! Let me know if you want to come hear it or want to ride down to Ascend with me.
I just sent you a PM.

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post #5624 of 6186 Old 08-15-2017, 05:59 PM
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Sorry made pic too big.

My wonderful wife is gunna help me put a fresh coat of paint over the whole theater and gunna put some seam filler to make the walls more smooth at the seams. I should of just ripped out the wood paneling but its glued to the cement behind and its become one with the masonry lol so not an easy job. All walls are cement except ceiling and the right wall.

20.1x13.2x7ft dimensions.
Thanks for the details and pictures! Looking great! Can't wait to hear your impressions of the final room.
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post #5625 of 6186 Old 08-15-2017, 07:35 PM
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Thanks for the details and pictures! Looking great! Can't wait to hear your impressions of the final room.
Thanks a lot dude! Appreciate it! I'll for sure keep updating as I get closer and closer and give lots of impressions.

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post #5626 of 6186 Old 08-15-2017, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Looking good now! It's 17~117Hz +/- 5dB.

My Cap 1400 is the 2015 model so the dials do not have detents. It is 11ft from me and I always have the gain at 12 o'clock. Is your 5 clicks somewhere around 12 o'clock? IIRC, the sub at the front location is also ~10 from your MLP, right? Then 5 clicks sounds about right. What is your LF Adjust at? Is it at Boost?

From your graph though, it looks like you are getting 10dB higher output from 18~23Hz, that is perceived twice as loud. ( 6dB is double the output when you go from 1 to 2 subs and 10dB is twice as loud ). How is the TR with the sub at the front?

It also looks like you have dips at 19Hz, 38Hz and 46Hz with the sub at the front or behind you. Maybe you can try moving your seat a few inches here and there and see if the dips will improve.
Gain has 17 Clicks. LF Adjust has 10 Clicks. LF Adjust at Max is best for my room so I left it at that for DIRAC Calibration. 118HT is currently in the back - 1ft to the left of the MLP and 2.5 feet back.

Front location would be 11ft in front and 3ft to the left of the MLP. I will try it with DIRAC to see and learn. Distance will mean higher Gain so it would be close to what you call 12 o'clock. Hiding a cable run there is hard because there is no wall - that side of the room runs into the hallway entrance. I am running balanced though which can deal with long runs up and around better.
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post #5627 of 6186 Old 08-15-2017, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Curves View Post
Gain has 17 Clicks. LF Adjust has 10 Clicks. LF Adjust at Max is best for my room so I left it at that for DIRAC Calibration. 118HT is currently in the back - 1ft to the left of the MLP and 2.5 feet back.

Front location would be 11ft in front and 3ft to the left of the MLP. I will try it with DIRAC to see and learn. Distance will mean higher Gain so it would be close to what you call 12 o'clock. Hiding a cable run there is hard because there is no wall - that side of the room runs into the hallway entrance. I am running balanced though which can deal with long runs up and around better.
So your FR is with the 118HT in the back? Wow. How do you get port wind with the sub there? So basically the Dirac is pulling your FR up 10db @ 18~23Hz... Hmmm... With the sub at back, you might as well put the gain at 9 clicks and let Dirac pull the peaks down. I think you will get more headroom this way.

Personally, I have to have a JTR sub at the front due to the port wind. You should be able to find somewhere along the front where you can have the TR and the port wind.

Can you take a picture of the front of the room, sitting at the MLP, and post it here?
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post #5628 of 6186 Old 08-16-2017, 06:12 AM
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I'm thinking about a 4000ULF for my HT. The room is 15 X 21 X 9' and I currently have 2 SVS 20-39CS subs along the rear wall and a Genelec 7073a along the left wall. My front speakers are too large for a sub in the front. While bass is pretty good, the subs fail to pressurize the room. I'm thinking that the 4000ULF output would be great enough in a 3000 sq ft space to overcome any room problems.

The HT is a converted bedroom and it was too narrow to rip to studs and put in a staggered stud arrangement. The room is on the second floor with a garage below and attic above.

I am thinking about replacing the Genelec with the JTR sub and keeping the SVS subs to even out bass response in the room.

What do you guys think about this sub for my application. I know that shipping charges would be quite high but does JTR have a home trial return period if I'm not happy with the sub? I plan on this being my last sub purchase.
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post #5629 of 6186 Old 08-16-2017, 06:34 AM
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I'm thinking about a 4000ULF for my HT. The room is 15 X 21 X 9' and I currently have 2 SVS 20-39CS subs along the rear wall and a Genelec 7073a along the left wall. My front speakers are too large for a sub in the front. While bass is pretty good, the subs fail to pressurize the room. I'm thinking that the 4000ULF output would be great enough in a 3000 sq ft space to overcome any room problems.

The HT is a converted bedroom and it was too narrow to rip to studs and put in a staggered stud arrangement. The room is on the second floor with a garage below and attic above.

I am thinking about replacing the Genelec with the JTR sub and keeping the SVS subs to even out bass response in the room.

What do you guys think about this sub for my application. I know that shipping charges would be quite high but does JTR have a home trial return period if I'm not happy with the sub? I plan on this being my last sub purchase.
Hi Dave,

I had to look up those SVS subs, but they are a 16 year old sub, with a 300 watt amplifier. Subwoofer technology and subwoofer standards have improved immeasurably in the last 16 years. In other words, they bear the same relationship to a Cap 4000 that a Model T Ford bears to a Ferrari. (For the record, I own SVS subs, although much more powerful models.) I think that if I were you, I would retire all three subs and get a pair of good replacements. If you can afford it, I might recommend a pair of Cap 2400's, or if you can't quite manage that, a pair of Cap 1400's.

Part of the reason that I used the car analogy is to illustrate what an enormous difference there would be between both of your SVS subs combined in comparison to a single Cap 4000. And, you may not need nearly that much output from a single sub. But, already having experienced multiple subs, I believe you will still benefit from having dual subs. The 300 watt SVS subs will not be able to provide any meaningful support at all to a Cap 4000. The output capabilities at every frequency, and the low extension, will be so totally different that they are likely to cause more cancellation effects than to help with frequency response or overall bass envelopment.

So, my advice would be to get a pair of Cap 2400's (which together will be even more capable than a single Cap 4000) or at least a pair of Cap 1400's or Cap 118HT's. You will never miss the somewhat obsolete SVS subs at all, and the bass effects will be spectacular compared to what you have been experiencing. I would give this idea some serious consideration if I were you.

With respect to a trial period, JTR does offer one with a full refund, but you have to pay the return shipping costs, which are not normally exorbitant. Not very many people end up returning their subs. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike
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post #5630 of 6186 Old 08-16-2017, 07:04 AM
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Mike,

Great food for thought. First I am going to turn off the SVS subs and play the Genelec alone to see how the bass sounds.

If I got too subs the only places available in the room that measures well are sidewall placement. To avoid cancellation I assume that it would be best to stack two subs on one wall?

Thanks,
Dave
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post #5631 of 6186 Old 08-16-2017, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
So your FR is with the 118HT in the back? Wow. How do you get port wind with the sub there? So basically the Dirac is pulling your FR up 10db @ 18~23Hz... Hmmm... With the sub at back, you might as well put the gain at 9 clicks and let Dirac pull the peaks down. I think you will get more headroom this way.

Personally, I have to have a JTR sub at the front due to the port wind. You should be able to find somewhere along the front where you can have the TR and the port wind.

Can you take a picture of the front of the room, sitting at the MLP, and post it here?
Yes the FR is with the 118HT in the back. On a heavy port wind scene, I can sometimes feel wind coming to the side of me but toward me sitting, it is not strong since the Sofa blocks most of it. I have to stand up in front of it. Attached is what the 118HT looks like in the front. No DIRAC calibration from there yet. I am going to listen to the back position for a week to get used to it before trying the front.
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post #5632 of 6186 Old 08-16-2017, 08:36 AM
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I watched "Don't Breathe" last night. Boy my 118HT was working overtime. Lots of chuffing e.g. the gunshot scene 30 minutes into the movie.
Great movie, intense thriller and it keeps you really engaged throughout.
What Sub do you have and how does it handle this movie?
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Hmmmm...I need to check this out.


I did watch Edge of Tomorrow on the 2400 and didn't hear any chuffing at all on the opening scene...just A LOT of rattling in the house.
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post #5634 of 6186 Old 08-16-2017, 08:59 AM
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Yes the FR is with the 118HT in the back. On a heavy port wind scene, I can sometimes feel wind coming to the side of me but toward me sitting, it is not strong since the Sofa blocks most of it. I have to stand up in front of it. Attached is what the 118HT looks like in the front. No DIRAC calibration from there yet. I am going to listen to the back position for a week to get used to it before trying the front.
Yes, try putting the sub at the front and take a few measurements w/o room correction. Basically the sub belongs at a location that it provides the best FR so that the room correction does not have to correct so much. It is always easier to pull down a peak than to raise a dip. The latter kills the headroom.

Are you running phantom center? What are those 4 pillars?

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post #5635 of 6186 Old 08-16-2017, 09:14 AM
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Hmmmm...I need to check this out.


I did watch Edge of Tomorrow on the 2400 and didn't hear any chuffing at all on the opening scene...just A LOT of rattling in the house.
Yeah, my dual Rythmik FV18s react to the opening scene in Edge of Tomorrow exactly as your 2400 does: no chuffing but everything in the room shakes, rattles, and rolls. I think that is something most of us just have to live with.
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Originally Posted by Curves View Post
I watched "Don't Breathe" last night. Boy my 118HT was working overtime. Lots of chuffing e.g. the gunshot scene 30 minutes into the movie.
Great movie, intense thriller and it keeps you really engaged throughout.
What Sub do you have and how does it handle this movie?
The gunshot scene contains hot 20 Hz material. It looks that there is a dip at 19Hz at your current sub location. The DIRAC has to pull up 10dB @ 18~23Hz which compromises your headroom. That is why I have suggested trying other locations.

I have a 2015 Cap 1400.

Movies such as Don't Breath are potential chuffing inducers because the heavy bass scenes are just pure bass signals and the other channels are relatively inactive. World War Z - Grenade scene and Pulse - Server scene are similar. You should not hear chuffing playing The War of Worlds or Olympus Has Fallen - Washington Monument scene because the other channels are also quite active so the chuffing might be masked.

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post #5637 of 6186 Old 08-16-2017, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by xbsatx View Post
Hmmmm...I need to check this out.

I did watch Edge of Tomorrow on the 2400 and didn't hear any chuffing at all on the opening scene...just A LOT of rattling in the house.
Chuffing is basically port air movement at a speed that is too much for the port to handle. Therefore, when the sub chuffs, you also get the most port wind.

So, even with the chuffing inducing scenes, you have to play them loud enough for your sub to chuff. I can guarantee that my 2015 Cap 1400 will never chuff if I never go above MV @ -25dB...

The tuning frequency also affects where a sub chuffs. At the port tune, the port air movement is the greatest and the cone movement is the smallest. Since the Cap 2400ULF is tuned to 14 Hz, it may not chuff at the same frequency as the Cap 1400 or 118HT, which are tuned to 17 Hz.

Rattling in the house is part of the JTR experience. Interstellar turns my HT into a vibrator...

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post #5638 of 6186 Old 08-16-2017, 09:32 AM
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Yeah, my dual Rythmik FV18s react to the opening scene in Edge of Tomorrow exactly as your 2400 does: no chuffing but everything in the room shakes, rattles, and rolls. I think that is something most of us just have to live with.
We listened to the subs at MV of +5dB during the GTG, no ported sub was immune to the Intro of Edge of Tomorrow. This included the FV18. I will leave it at that.

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post #5639 of 6186 Old 08-16-2017, 09:37 AM
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Rattling in the house is part of the JTR experience. Interstellar turns my HT into a vibrator...
House rattling attendant to ultra low frequencies is part of the "experience" from any high end sub setup. If I can feel it in my chest and my room shakes, I can live with house rattling noises.
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post #5640 of 6186 Old 08-16-2017, 09:41 AM
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During the GTG, no ported sub that we listened at MV of -5dB was immune to the Intro of Edge of Tomorrow. This included the FV18.

I will leave it at that.
I never go louder than -10dB on EoT because when I first played it at -5, I thought my subs would explode. My max listening level anymore rarely exceeds -10 and is more ofter -12 or -15. What can I say? Even I have my limits.

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