2 more F-12`s or a pl-200 ? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 20 Old 02-03-2017, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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2 more F-12`s or a pl-200 ?

I can get 2 f-12`s or a pl-200 bic for approx the same price, like 60 bucks more for the pair of f-12`s.

Anyone had both or a pl-200.....specs list the f-12 at 90db sensitivity no other info, pl-200 is rated at 110 db at 30hz.......

f-12 is 150 rms, 475 peak, pl-200 is 250 rms and 1000 peak........

They are both 12 inchers....

I do not know a lot about subs..... a 12 incher seems like a 12 incher, I guess another 100 watts rms makes a big difference, not sure how watts effect the same sized cone.
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post #2 of 20 Old 02-04-2017, 09:51 AM
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Generally having two subwoofers is preferred over having a single unless you are getting a PL200 now and are open to adding one more later on if needed. How much are you planning to spend for 2 F12s? If it is close to $400, there might be other better options. Also share dimensions of your room.

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post #3 of 20 Old 02-04-2017, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks,

I have 3 F-12`s right now, just wondering if the PL-200 is that different than the F-12.....thanks


I can get the 2 F-12`s for 280 for both.....240 for pl 200....

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post #4 of 20 Old 02-04-2017, 04:22 PM
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Did you search on here and google, Bic F12 vs PL200? I did back a few years ago and everyone that heard both said that they PL200 was quite a bit better. I ended up buying the PL200 and for $250 it is a really impressive sub. But I have never heard an F12 personally, I do have some other higher end subs(13w7, PSA XS30, Submersive, 2 Um-18, Outlaw Ultra x 12 + others ) and of course, the PL200 can't compare to them but for the $$$ I am impressed.


Go to amazon and in the reviews for the PL200 search for F12, people that have owned both comment. I guess it is up to you though if it is worth 2 F12 to 1 PL200.

https://www.amazon.com/Bic-Acoustech...rByKeyword=f12


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Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
Thanks,

I have 3 F-12`s right now, just wondering if the PL-200 is that different than the F-12.....thanks


I can get the 2 F-12`s for 280 for both.....240 for pl 200....
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post #5 of 20 Old 02-04-2017, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I am going to do the pl-200, I already have 3 other F-12`s......

In a 12X12 sealed room
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post #6 of 20 Old Yesterday, 07:33 PM
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I saw your post in another thread you got a new sub, is the PL200? If so how does it compare to the F12? Was it a significant difference?
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post #7 of 20 Old Yesterday, 07:41 PM
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I think the Bic F12 is a great sub to introduce someone to the hobby - as soon as they think they need more than two (most people probably don't ever get to that point) then it's time to move on.
You can add as many f12s or PL200 as you want, but you'll never get a significant 15-20hz note without distortion with that product. Louder and lower is what you want as you mature in the subwoofer tradition.

It may be time, instead of doubling down - to sell the 3x Bic F12 and consider moving on up the subwoofer food chain.
You'll have spend more -- but for someone like you who craves more -- it'll be worth it. You should probably keep an eye on the used classified forums here. Occasionally I see something like a PB13 Ultra sell for a $1000 bucks. Better yet - occasionally there is something like a JTR Captivator selling for around the same or a little more.
Seriously, you could have a room full of bic f12 and the better subs are going to be more enjoyable for an enthusiast.
The bics will never be anything more than "good for the money" -- there are WAY better performing and sounding subwoofers out there.

This is an old thread but take a look at how the Bic F12 compared to some more serious competitors.
SUBFEST 2011-HuskerOmaha and Desertdome's Subwoofer Showdown

I did I little short review of the bic f12 and it's sister sub the v1220 here:
BIC V1220 and BIC F12 Omnimic Frequency Response Graphs

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post #8 of 20 Old Yesterday, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I saw your post in another thread you got a new sub, is the PL200? If so how does it compare to the F12? Was it a significant difference?
There is a very noticable difference....in output and that is does go lower.


The spec of 23hz on the pl-200 VS the 25hz rating is misleading....the f-12 is rated at 90 db, the pl-200 is rated at 110 db at 30hz....drastic difference.


Since I already had 3 f-12`s, the pl-200 was a smart choice in the end......

If I would of had a small or no sub, the 2 f-12`s would have been better, especially considering there was only a 20 dollar price difference between one pl-200 and 2 f-12`s.

The pl-200 is the better sub and in my application it was the right choice.

I believe the street price retail is approx 200 bucks on a f-12 and 300 on the pl-200.......at that price spread it would be a harder choice depending on the application and goals of the system.

The f-12 is a strong performer...........stand alone or in multiples.

The pl-200 plays louder and goes lower, so are getting discernable difference for your money. The pl-200 also has a very nice piano finish on the top if one is concerned about those touches.

The pl-200 is slightly larger and has basically the same features/adjustements as the f-12......so no big difference there.


I believe the difference in performance is right on with the cost difference.....also the looks are a upgrade.

3 f-12`s and a pl-200 in a 150 square foot room is a very robust performance package...more than enuf db, pressurizes the room well and gun shots etc are very viceral with felt body impact.

The unplanned benifit is at lower volume it still has a great sound feel to it, without being a nuisance to others nearby, you could get good results with some one in the room who does not care for loud bass as it is easy on the ears at the lower volume, but still sounds great.

Is is enuf now , in midbass slam,that I have abandoned my midbass project in favor of a small ULF project............with a focus on 25hz approx and down with a high pass filter to severly limit above 25 hz frequencies.

The f-12 is great for the price and did not leave me feeling like anything was missing...solid choice at that price....strong performer.

The pl-200 is a step up in performance and looks, easily worth the difference in price.......

I will measure at some point with REW, but my guess at full volume listening, normal movie watching volume, not max or reference, for movies it is easily doing from approx 20hz up in good output.....possibly lower down by 5 or 6 db.

If it is doing 110 db at 30 hz and it is down even 10 db at 20 hz, that is still 100 db at 20 hz.............I think one would still hear feel 100 db at 20hz........I could be wrong and it drops like a cliff at its rated 23hz .

I have not heads up listened or compared these with the competing subs in the same catagory........so there might be a stronger/better performer. I would say either one is a solid performer and it would not be a mistake to choose either one.

At the given price points neither one would be a mistake. If neither one of these fills your needs, you have moved on to needing more sub, then yes, it would be a mistake to get a sub that did not meet your needs, but you would already know your needs at that point.......so the bad choice would be your selection, not the product.

Both products lack any detracting flaws and do what is promised reasonably enuf to not raise questions or leave you feeling like you did not get your monies worth.

I am in to these subs for right under 700 bucks and have big doubts a single brand name retail sub for 700 will do what this combo will. I am actually at 680 total delivered to my door.

When jack reacher punched thru the window of that suv to knock old boy out, it was like I got backhanded in the chest !!!!... This is at reasonable listening levels with modest adjustements on the subs....no where near reference or max capable volume/gain.


PS,.... I am more than willing to bad mouth products if needed and I have purchased garbage stuff before and did not hesitate to say it was garbage and say I made a bad choice.........it was my fault. I am not one of those people who will praise whatever they have as the best, if I make a stupid purchase I own up to it.
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post #9 of 20 Old Today, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
T

The spec of 23hz on the pl-200 VS the 25hz rating is misleading....the f-12 is rated at 90 db, the pl-200 is rated at 110 db at 30hz....drastic difference.


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post #10 of 20 Old Today, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
Thanks for the chart !

I knew the specs were suspect as most are....but having the real numbers helps.

Happen to have a chart on the f-12 ?

Perhaps they/BIC had a oversight and accidentaly omited it would take 2 coupled together and room gain to hit 110 db cleanly at 30hz......

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post #11 of 20 Old Today, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
Thanks for the chart !

I knew the specs were suspect as most are....but having the real numbers helps.

Happen to have a chart on the f-12 ?
Chart is from data-bass.com. They did not test the F12, but assume it's a little less at all frequencies.

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post #12 of 20 Old Today, 02:51 PM
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84dB at 20hz is weak on that PL200.


The Bics will never get you clean 15-20hz output. That is below the box port tune, and it will be out of phase, high distortion output --- no matter how many you buy. It just won't get you there. period.


If you STACKED them all and played a 20hz test tone...
2 PL200 would get you 90dB
4 PL200 would get you 96dB
8 PL200 would get you to 102 dB
16 PL200 would get you to 108dB.


16 Bic PL200 - which are all stacked in a big pile.
WHICH IS STILL LESS THAN ONE SINGLE PB13 ULTRA which hits at 110dB at 20Hz according to the same independent test review site.
and the PL200s would have WAY more distortion in the comparison...


See what I'm saying?

A local guy is selling a pair of JTR Captivators for $1500.
You can regularly buy SVS PB13 Ultras for ~$1,000 used.

So no you can't beat your setup for $700 terribly easily -- because $700 subs aren't that great in the world of retail or ID --- (you could easily do it with DIY)
However, you can soundly beat those PLs and F12s for $1000 on the used market. You like bass - obvious by the fact you are trying to buy 4-5 subwoofers.
Start thinking about taking it to the next level. It'll be worth it.





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post #13 of 20 Old Today, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
Chart is from data-bass.com. They did not test the F12, but assume it's a little less at all frequencies.

And the Bic F12 rolls of HARD at 30Hz, as I showed in my review linked above. Looks like the Bic PL200 does the same thing at 25Hz with the data-bass review.


Also when you are looking at these charts remember 6dB is double the volume.
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post #14 of 20 Old Today, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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The Bics will never get you clean 15-20hz output. That is below the box port tune, and it will be out of phase, high distortion output.
No matter how many you buy.


A local guy is selling a pair of JTR Captivators for $1500.
You can regularly buy SVS PB13 Ultras for ~$1,000 used.


So no you can't beat your setup for $700. But you can really soundly beat it for $1000 on the used market. You like bass - obvious by the fact you are trying to buy 4-5 subwoofers.
Start thinking about taking it to the next level. It'll be worth it.





Thanks,

This was just to get me to what I would consider the bare minimal and see what I wanted/needed/liked.........

This has made me plan a ULF DIY build, with probably a 18 incher in a box focused on 30-50hz max and down as low as possible.

I need to measure and see where I am at now exactly in real numbers to figure out a build to mesh well with the current enviroment and give the very low end a big boost.

Armed with the experiance I have now, I would have went big from the start, but at that time, I had no experiance and no idea what level of performance would satisfy me.

I do now....... A one word description would be

MOAR!

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@unretarded


Where do you live?


We have a KC Home theater crawl next weekend as shown in my signature. Multiple guys with super sub setups. If you could attend something like that - it would be eye opening. We all started with something like you have.
Those who are keen on the bass interest keep building up their sub systems over the years. If you are around KC or even if you could drive to KC - you should consider joining the crawl. We have one open slot right now.


ALSO - you can check out this thread and see if there is anyone in your area to get some additional perspectives!


The "I'll demo my subwoofer for other enthusiasts" thread.


I'm speaking to you, hoping to help you, not belittle you. I started with a 40watt max passive sub out of a HTIB setup from a pawn shop.


I took a keen interest in bass and made it my business to try to hear a lot of different system at g2g's and such. Here's my experiences now: Post 2
The Subwoofer Recommendation by Pricepoint Thread.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
Thanks for the chart !

I knew the specs were suspect as most are....but having the real numbers helps.

Happen to have a chart on the f-12 ?

Perhaps they/BIC had a oversight and accidentaly omited it would take 2 coupled together and room gain to hit 110 db cleanly at 30hz......

Also note the databass measurements are ground plane, in room yours measurements will look better you will gain spl/dB placing the sub along a wall and even more placing a sub in a corner. Many speaker/sub manufacturers list the subwoofer specs/frequency range measured in room because it makes the specs look better.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=80#

Graph #2 compares the two.
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Post 521 is an example of someone selling a pair of JTR Caps for cheap. You just couldn't equal these with PL200 in a house no matter how many you had.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
Also note the databass measurements are ground plane, in room yours measurements will look better you will gain spl/dB placing the sub along a wall and even more placing a sub in a corner. Many speaker/sub manufacturers list the subwoofer specs/frequency range measured in room because it makes the specs look better.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=80#

Graph #2 compares the two.
With ported subs, you'll get some boost in the area around port tune and above. It won't help bring up the area under port tune enough to matter, unless all 4 of the OP's subs are in a 4'x6'x6' closet.
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post #19 of 20 Old Today, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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This chart below is exactly why I need a meter.mic and REW......anything and everything "Could be happenig in my room, combination.




Some of the charts with multiple subs showed a smoothing effect also....interesting stuff.

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With ported subs, you'll get some boost in the area around port tune and above. It won't help bring up the area under port tune enough to matter, unless all 4 of the OP's subs are in a 4'x6'x6' closet.

Close...

A 12X12X7.5 room that is very close to sealed....

Just weather striped the doors a few days ago.....gaps on the bottom are very small........doors actually drag the carpet.

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