I need a little help configuring iNuke 3000DSP with Denon 920AVR, B215XLs, and VP1800 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 9 Old 02-22-2017, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I need a little help configuring iNuke 3000DSP with Denon 920AVR, B215XLs, and VP1800

Hey folks,

Hats off and thanks to those of you who got me this far. I think I'm close to having a VERY nice and affordable upgrade to my home theater.

I have 5 questions, but I wanted to make sure you had all the info you needed so there is a lot more detail below.

QUESTION 1: Should I use LFE or LFE+Main? I assume it's LFE.
QUESTION 2: Should I set an LPF in the Denon, rely on the iNuke DSP, or both?
QUESTION 3: Do I need to set the crossover for the 215XLs in the Denon?
QUESTION 4: Do I need to set an output limit on the iNuke?
QUESTION 5: Is there anything else I absolutely must do (or avoid doing) to ensure I don't blow the subs or the other equipment?

Please note that I have been reading and searching these forums for answers. I'm only posting this because the answers I've already found weren't enough to make me feel confident that I'm making good decisions. I'm really hoping some of you brave souls will read this and offer some advice. Please don't be put off by the wall of text. A lot of it is quotes from manuals and specs.

My system includes:
- 21' x 12.5' room with furniture
- Denon S920W AVR
- 5 x Behringer 215XLs in a surround config (they sound amazing, btw)
- 2 x VP1900S subwoofers
- Behringer iNuke 3000DSP AMP

VP1800S Sub connections look like this:
Denon 920 Subwoofer Preamp Outputs (2 of them)
-- RCA to XLR --
iNuke 3000DSP Inputs A and B
-- iNuke internal --
iNuke 3000DSP Outputs A and B
-- Speakon to Speakon (12ga) --
Behringer VP1800S

215XL speaker connections look like this:
Denon 920 Speaker Outputs
-- Banana to Speakon (12ga) --
Behringer B215XL (FR, FL, C, RR, RL)


After some reading, here is what I'm thinking:

FOR THE SUB
1. Use the iNuke's DUAL mode which routes the identical signal from the Denon's 2 sub outputs to the Outputs A and B of iNuke. I don't think Bridge mode is needed with my small-ish (21' x 12.5') theater room.
2. I don't need a dedicated 20 AMP circuit for the iNuke3000DSP. I can use the same circuit as the Denon and my TV.
3. Setting the crossover for the subs should be done in the iNuke AMP, not in the Denon.
4. I should start with the 150 Hz crossover specified by Behringer, but I can move that if I feel it helps.
5. I don't need to do anything in the iNuke to support or protect the 215XLs.
6. Set the Denon's Subwoofer Mode to LFE (as opposed to LFE+Main which adds the main speaker signal to the sub mix.


FOR THE 215XLs
Under Denon Speaker Config, I need to set the speaker sizes to LARGE for the 215XLs as they do extend down to 55 Hz (Behringer tech support told me this).


My Questions:
QUESTION 1: Should I use LFE or LFE+Main? I assume it's LFE.

The Denon offers a few different options which I'm not sure about.

From the DENON Manual:

"SUBWOOFER MODE
- LFE (Default): The low range signal of the channel set to “Small” speaker size is added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer.
- LFE+Main: The low range signal of all channels is added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer.

If Front and Center are set to Large, and Subwoofer Mode is set to LFE, the subwoofers may not emit any sound depending on the input signal. Select LFE+Main if you want the bass signals to always be produced from the subwoofer.
"


QUESTION 2: Should I set an LPF in the Denon, rely on the iNuke DSP, or both?

From the DENON Manual:

"LPF for LFE - Set LFE signal playback range. Set this when you want to change the playback frequency (low pass filter point) of the subwoofer.
OPTIONS: 80Hz / 90Hz / 100Hz / 110Hz / 120Hz / 150Hz / 200Hz / 250Hz (Default: 120Hz)
"


QUESTION 3: Do I need to set the crossover for the 215XLs in the Denon?

From the DENON Manual:

"Speaker Selection - Selects how to set the crossover frequency.
All (Default): Sets the same crossover fre*quency for all speak*ers.
Individual: Selects the crossover points for each speaker individually.
OPTIONS: 40Hz / 60Hz / 80Hz / 90Hz / 100Hz / 110Hz / 120Hz / 150Hz / 200Hz / 250Hz (Default: 80Hz)
"

The manual for the 215XLs lists the crossover as 2 KHz. The Denon only allows up to 250Hz and only if I'm running in LFE+Main mode or for speakers listed as Small.


QUESTION 4: Do I need to set an output limit on the iNuke?

From the iNuke 3000 DSP Manual:

"LIMIT - The LIMIT DSP module controls the unit’s output limiter, with programmable
parameters for threshold (Thresh), release (Rtime), and hold (Hold).
To program the output limiter:
1. Choose between signal paths (A#1, B#1).
2. Choose a threshold (Thres) setting.
3. Choose a release time (Rtime).
4. Choose a hold (Hold) setting.
"


QUESTION 5: Is there anything else I absolutely must do (or avoid doing) to ensure I don't blow the subs or the other equipment?



EQUIPMENT SPECS

Behringer B215XL
Range: 55 Hz to 20 KHz
Power: 1000 W Peak / 250 W Continuous
Impedance: 8 Ohms
Sensitivity (1 W @ 1 m): 96 dB (Full Space)
Crossover: 2 kHz

Behringer VP1800S
Range: 35 Hz to 250 Hz
Power: 1600 W Peak
1500 W Continuous in Bridged Mode
440 W Continuous normal mode
Impedance: 8 Ohms
SPL: 100 dB (Half Space, 1 W @ 1 m)
Crossover: LP 150 Hz

iNuke 3000DSP
Power: 8 Ω per channel, stereo 1600 W
Input impedance 10 kΩ unbalanced, 20 kΩ balanced
Output circuit type Class D
Frequency response 20 Hz to 20 kHz, +0 / -2 dB
Damping factor >140 @ 8 Ω
Signal-to-noise >98 dB

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post #2 of 9 Old 02-22-2017, 10:01 PM
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First off, this is NOT my first post. I used to be "DanLW", but since the whole password reset thing, the forum admins have ignored my multiple requests for a reset. Guess I should have kept my e-mail current. Mods, if you can help, please PM me. I can prove I am really "DanLW" if somebody would just listen.

I have an iNuke3000DSP hooked to my subs. (do a search for "Salerno Subwoofer")

I can't answer all your questions, but here's what I can answer.

Set your AVR to LFE+Main. Sometimes a sound mix will send stuff in the 20Hz range to your left and right mains. You want that sent to your subs for two reasons. First, your mains probably won't be able to reproduce that low of a frequency. Second, it takes the power drain off your AVR and lets it use that power for all the not low frequency effects. With regards to the crossover, let your AVR handle that. The only reason you would use the crossover in your iNuke is if you were running a subwoofer off one channel, and a midrange off the second. 80Hz is the generally recommended crossover point in your AVR, but if you feel comfortable with Room EQ Wizard, experiment with different crossover settings. With my Klipsch RF-7 IIs, 40Hz measures out as my ideal crossover point for smoothest bass response.

For the limiter, you may want to set one since your subs are rated for 400W continuous. But... I notice a different problem with those subs. They're only rated down to 40Hz. Is this for music or movies? You really want to get down to ideally 20Hz at least. (my subs are tuned to 11Hz) If you stick with these subs, you're going to need to set a high pass filter which is easily doable with the iNuke. If you send a strong 20Hz signal to them at high power, that could be bad juju.

Back to the limiter, you won't need it. The amp is rated to 1600W... AT TWO OHMS. Your speakers have an 8 ohm impedance, and at that impedance the iNuke will only provide about 400 watts per channel. So if you send it a prolonged 0dbfs signal you might damage the subs. But you may actually blow the fuse first. Go to the configuration tab in Remote Connect, and you will see that if you set the impedance to 8 ohms, it tells you 451.6W is where the limiter is set when it it set to 0dbfs (no limiting)

You mentioned a 20 amp circuit. You won't need one unless you add more amps. I have all my equipment running off one 15A outlet, and I was doing bass sweeps at high levels about a week ago. The fuse in my amp blew, but the circuit breaker in my home's circuit breaker panel did not. (I have since replaced the fuse, and the amp works fine)

Since you are running your amp in "Stereo" mode, just be sure any EQ changes you do to one channel you mirror on the other channel.

You are right not to use bridge mode. Bridge would basically make the amp operate as a mono amp, and would route all the power from both channels to one output.

Is I read through your post for some final thoughts...

For your mains, I have to disagree with Behringer... you would not set left and right speakers that play down to 55Hz as "Large". They can easily see signals down to 20Hz (and lower if you listen to some kinds of music) You need to set them as "small" (even thought they are physically large, if they don't play down to 20Hz, they are "small".) Your AVR will then route signals below the crossover point to your subwoofers.

But again, 40Hz (I see you listed 35Hz) is not low enough for movies. THX recommends 20Hz. A lot of bassaholics on this forum (myself included) recommend lower. But if you want to go that low on a budget, I'd recommend checking out the DIY section. If you already have woodworking tools (or need an excuse to buy woodworking tools), DIY is the way to go if you want big bass. If you don't have woodworking tools, perhaps check out HSU Research. You can get a pair of comparably priced subs that will play down to 22Hz, and lower if you want to spend a little more.

I hope this helps!
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post #3 of 9 Old Yesterday, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danlw2 View Post
Go to the configuration tab in Remote Connect, and you will see that if you set the impedance to 8 ohms, it tells you 451.6W is where the limiter is set when it it set to 0dbfs (no limiting)


I hope this helps!
Wow. As usual I'm impressed with both the knowledge and the willingness to share. Thanks DanLW!

One follow-up, if you don't mind.
I'm not sure how to parse the sentence above. I think you're saying that I leave the amp set for 8 ohms. This results in 451.6W output and a 0dbfs limit (which equals no limiting). Is that right?

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post #4 of 9 Old Yesterday, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danlw2 View Post
But... I notice a different problem with those subs. They're only rated down to 40Hz. Is this for music or movies? You really want to get down to ideally 20Hz at least. (my subs are tuned to 11Hz) If you stick with these subs, you're going to need to set a high pass filter which is easily doable with the iNuke. If you send a strong 20Hz signal to them at high power, that could be bad juju.

[snip]

But again, 40Hz (I see you listed 35Hz) is not low enough for movies. THX recommends 20Hz. A lot of bassaholics on this forum (myself included) recommend lower. But if you want to go that low on a budget, I'd recommend checking out the DIY section. If you already have woodworking tools (or need an excuse to buy woodworking tools), DIY is the way to go if you want big bass. If you don't have woodworking tools, perhaps check out HSU Research. You can get a pair of comparably priced subs that will play down to 22Hz, and lower if you want to spend a little more.
I forgot to answer your questions. I'm evenly split between TV, film, and music. I take the film and music more seriously. Most TV is just a distraction or a time waster.

Others have mentioned the lower end as well. My original plan was to get one of these subs and try it out, then supplement with something that can go lower if I felt the need.

There was a slight wrinkle. Amazon damaged the first sub and sent a second one for free - no return required. That would be great, but they damaged the replacement too. So now I'm torn. The damage appears superficial - it's a crumpled front grill in both cases. For all I know they're fine, but I'm worried that any impact big enough to crumple the front grill might have shaken or fractured things inside.

I do have woodworking tools and I'm handy enough to DIY. I'm just not sure I feel like taking that on right now. I can be kind of OCD about it so it could take weeks to make what I want. :-) Do you think I could actually make something that reached 16 Hz? Is that a good target?

Anyway, I'll see what Amazon and Behringer tell me today. Then I'll decide what I'm doing next.

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post #5 of 9 Old Yesterday, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by legolad View Post
I forgot to answer your questions. I'm evenly split between TV, film, and music. I take the film and music more seriously. Most TV is just a distraction or a time waster.

Others have mentioned the lower end as well. My original plan was to get one of these subs and try it out, then supplement with something that can go lower if I felt the need.

There was a slight wrinkle. Amazon damaged the first sub and sent a second one for free - no return required. That would be great, but they damaged the replacement too. So now I'm torn. The damage appears superficial - it's a crumpled front grill in both cases. For all I know they're fine, but I'm worried that any impact big enough to crumple the front grill might have shaken or fractured things inside.

I do have woodworking tools and I'm handy enough to DIY. I'm just not sure I feel like taking that on right now. I can be kind of OCD about it so it could take weeks to make what I want. :-) Do you think I could actually make something that reached 16 Hz? Is that a good target?

Anyway, I'll see what Amazon and Behringer tell me today. Then I'll decide what I'm doing next.
I'm 99% certain that the speaker impedance setting in the configuration tab has no bearing on actual output power. It is there so that the amp knows what output power number to show you. So no, setting it to 2 ohms won't make it output 1600W per channel.

I wouldn't recommend trying to get lower range subs and integrating them with the current ones. Trying to do a "2-way subwoofer" is just unnecessarily complex.

Getting down to 16Hz is easy. The subs I used was actually my first major woodworking project. Just do a lot of research in the DIY section. Get WinISD and play around with it. There are basically two ways to get to 16Hz and lower. One is with a sealed subwoofer and a LOT of power. The advantage is it doesn't take up that much space. The disadvantage is it requires a lot of power, and there is greater distortion at the lower end. the other route is with a large ported design. It requires less power to get loud. The downside is the sub has to be BIG. Check out my build thread to see how big I'm talking about:

(AVS won't let me post links since I am a "noob". Google: "Salerno Subwoofer: SI HT18D4 11Hz LLT... times TWO"

The quick and dirty route would be to swap the drivers in your Behringer subs for a more appropriate driver. If you're lucky the screw holes will line up and it will be a straight swap. But I'd recommend modeling in WinISD. I've been out of the sub building loop for a while, so I'm not sure what is the current driver of choice for 18" drivers at the moment. The Stereo Integrity drivers I have are discontinued, and replaced with a new driver that is a lot more expensive. You may want to check out the Dayton Audio UM18-22. It might work as a drop-in replacement, but verify dimensions and such first. There's also the Dayton Audio 18" Ultimax Subwoofer and Cabinet Bundle at Parts-Express. It's essentially a kit subwoofer. But since it sounds like you got a free sub (or at least a sub cabinet) from Amazon, I'd recommend researching dropping a diffe's rent driver into the cabinet. You should be able to get the technical drawings of any potential driver you may want to use to see if the screw holes will line up. (Although drilling new ones shouldn't be a big deal) The other thing to be concerned about is clearance behind the driver. If the Behringer subwoofer has internal bracing like it should, you will want to make sure a driver you get to replace the stock driver won't be too deep to fit into the cabinet.

16 Hz is definitely a good target. The only reason you would want to go deeper is if you really enjoy the room shaking. But from experience, there is a downside to owning a sub like mine that goes down to 11Hz... when a movie's sound engineer for some inexplicable reason decides to high-pass the soundtrack at 20Hz, you will notice. This issue ruined How to Train Your Dragon 2 for me. HTTYD 1 is an excellent subwoofer movie. HTTYD2, while an excellent movie, is a meh subwoofer movie.
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I don't know about the I nuke
but i do know that all speakers get set to small (bass managed) and crossover at 80hz (70hz recommended if you can do it, to stay in the curve after crossover rolloff and before the 55hz drop off)
Quote:
"try to set your crossover at least 10hz above what you speakers can do cleanly"
(quote source: audioholics)

LPF I recommend leaving it at default, but you can play with it. It's just the .1 channel for movies and such

do NOT use lfe and mains also known as double bass, this disengages the crossover for the front mains, running the front mains at full range and "copy's" the low frequencies set by the crossover and sends them to the sub
this can cause phase cancellation from the speaker and sub trying to produce the same frequencies with different timing. Plus as someone mentioned earlier, it robs power from your amp by trying to produce power hungry lows from the main speakers, when that's the subwoofers job.

"lfe and mains" is a gimmick feature for people that just want loud noise
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Originally Posted by littlefoott View Post
I don't know about the I nuke
but i do know that all speakers get set to small (bass managed) and crossover at 80hz (70hz recommended if you can do it, to stay in the curve after crossover rolloff and before the 55hz drop off)
(quote source: audioholics)

LPF I recommend leaving it at default, but you can play with it. It's just the .1 channel for movies and such

do NOT use lfe and mains also known as double bass, this disengages the crossover for the front mains, running the front mains at full range and "copy's" the low frequencies set by the crossover and sends them to the sub
this can cause phase cancellation from the speaker and sub trying to produce the same frequencies with different timing. Plus as someone mentioned earlier, it robs power from your amp by trying to produce power hungry lows from the main speakers, when that's the subwoofers job.

"lfe and mains" is a gimmick feature for people that just want loud noise
One suggestion to prevent very loud surprises, especially if you have kids. In the "Filer/Crossover" tab, set up your input gain so that the desired volume level is with both front panel knobs set fully clockwise. Start with your receiver's sub out at a low level, and play a test tone through it. Turn both knobs on the iNuke fully clockwise. Then, adjust your receiver's sub out (and the iNuke's input gain, if necessary) for 75db as read on an SPL meter. (or 80db if you want more bass) Doing this will make it so that your proper listening level is with both knobs turned fully clockwise. That way if somebody fiddles with the knobs, all you have to do is turn them fully clockwise and you're back where you need to be.

The reason to do this is because if you have it set so that halfway clockwise is your proper volume setting, you may get a very loud surprise if somebody plays with the knobs and turns them up to eleven!

Don't worry, you wont have to turn them up or down if you want a different master volume level. The volume of the sub out on your receiver will adjust with your receiver's master volume. So once the iNuke is set up correctly, you can pretty much forget about it (other than remembering to turn it on and off.)
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post #8 of 9 Old Yesterday, 07:21 PM
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1. As noted earlier, use LFE.

2. Set the lpf for the LFE to 120Hz. From another site: "This is the high frequency cutoff point for the LFE, also known as the .1 channel in a 5.1/6.1/7.1 surround source. In practice this should always be set to 120Hz since the LFE channel supports information up to that frequency."

3. Use 80 Hz for the B215XL in the Denon. No lower, but you could experiment and try 90 or 100 Hz for this.

4 You don't really need to set the limiter on the Inuke. Those subs should be able to handle the full output of the NU3000. I have seen some recommendations to set the limiter just below peak output to avoid clipping. That is not a bad idea. Parts Express Says the NU3000 puts out 315 watts into 8 ohms. So you could set the limiter at 300 watts if you wanted to be extra cautious. When I set mine, I left everything at default except the watts.

I suggest using a high pass filter in the nu3000dsp of 30Hz with these subs unless someone with direct experience with them suggests lower is ok. That will sharply reduce content below 30Hz from the sub which is below the tuning frequency of the sub and can cause excessive excursion.
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post #9 of 9 Old Today, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again, guys.
This will definitely get me started. I'll be spending some time tomorrow setting up and testing. I'll let you know how it goes.

I've held off calling Amazon about the damage. If they work, I only need to decide if I'm happy with the sound.

If I'm not happy, I can sell them and buy/build a different sub.

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