The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts - Page 90 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2671 of 3195 Old 09-21-2017, 11:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Lucy (2014) Graph


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The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts Heavy Cinematic | Heavy Electronic|
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post #2672 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 02:02 AM
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So are you guys saying you're setting all your speakers to small? I'm so confused, one person says small, I set to small then told I'm doing it all wrong they need to be set to large. So here I go back and set them to large. Ones that say set to large say it's best because I have my fronts bi amped.
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post #2673 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphillips63 View Post
So are you guys saying you're setting all your speakers to small? I'm so confused, one person says small, I set to small then told I'm doing it all wrong they need to be set to large. So here I go back and set them to large. Ones that say set to large say it's best because I have my fronts bi amped.
I need to get a mic and learn REW since I've downloaded it to my computer.


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Small.. let the subs do the heavy work. If you have true FR speakers then yea maybe with subs off. But yes, small all around, LFE to subs.
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post #2674 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 03:53 AM
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Small.. let the subs do the heavy work. If you have true FR speakers then yea maybe with subs off. But yes, small all around, LFE to subs.
This x 2!
There's nothing your ML Motion 40's can do under 80hz that your dual PB16 Ultras can't do much much better!
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post #2675 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 04:53 AM
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Ok thanks, one other question, I have the AVR set to main plus LFE. Even with this setting do I still go small and change from main + LFE it just LFE?


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post #2676 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 05:59 AM
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Ok thanks, one other question, I have the AVR set to main plus LFE. Even with this setting do I still go small and change from main + LFE it just LFE?


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Small, LFE, 80hz crossover on mains
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post #2677 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 06:43 AM
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Thanks to whoever got the ball rolling on Scott Pilgrim vs the World discussion, because I haven't seen this since it came out in 2010, and it's a blast! Another great movie with exceptional bass that slipped through my movie collection.

Even listening with the TTs and nearfield MBMs off at -5mv, the first battle of the bands scene (00:29:30) is just ridiculous amounts of fun. For the first time, I moved both Crowson under the MLP, instead of opposite sides of the couch, and it really feels like there's a kick drum beneath my seat. This movie has a great mix of subtle and brutal low to midbass effects!
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post #2678 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jphillips63 View Post
Ok thanks, one other question, I have the AVR set to main plus LFE. Even with this setting do I still go small and change from main + LFE it just LFE?


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The Mains + LFE is confusing. But what this means is you can send to Subs just the LFE channel .1 or you can send both the LFE .1 channel and Bass content from the Main L&R Speakers below the crossover you set for those speakers. So if you set your mains to say 80Hz crossover. Then when you set Main + LFE you are telling the AVR to send all LFE channel .1 to subs and all content below 80Hz from Main Left & Right Speaker to Subs as well.

So you do want to set this to LFE + Mains. Otherwise you will lose all the bass content from the mains below where you set the crossover. It will just be discarded and not reproduced. Hope this makes sense. Like I said they made this overly confusing and it took me some time to get it straight in my head as well.

I believe all of the above to be correct and accurate. But this is AVSForums and someone will be along shorty to correct me
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post #2679 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
The Mains + LFE is confusing. But what this means is you can send to Subs just the LFE channel .1 or you can send both the LFE .1 channel and Bass content from the Main L&R Speakers below the crossover you set for those speakers. So if you set your mains to say 80Hz crossover. Then when you set Main + LFE you are telling the AVR to send all LFE channel .1 to subs and all content below 80Hz from Main Left & Right Speaker to Subs as well.

So you do want to set this to LFE + Mains. Otherwise you will lose all the bass content from the mains below where you set the crossover. It will just be discarded and not reproduced. Hope this makes sense. Like I said they made this overly confusing and it took me some time to get it straight in my head as well.

I believe all of the above to be correct and accurate. But this is AVSForums and someone will be along shorty to correct me
I believe on D&M receivers, if you select LFE only, it will reproduce bass signals from all the channels that are set to small, which would be every speaker for most of us. So as long as the speaker configuration for all speakers is set to small, either subwoofer mode (LFE or LFE+Main) should work to the same effect.

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post #2680 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 08:21 AM
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All this talk about MV and calibration of one's AVR to a specific level. Something I wanted to discuss here. A point that is not always clearly communicated. At least not in my mind anyway. Please correct me if I get this wrong. Always open to learning and tweaking my own knowledge.

When you set speaker trim levels, either manually or by employing Audyssey, MACC and/or other automated calibration software interface. What you are doing is setting an "Average" playback loudness level for each speaker/sub. Not a Maximum or Minimum volume level. But an "Average" Volume SPL.

All audio content is dynamic in terms of volume at particular points of time in the Film. This Dynamic Volume is what controls how loud each channel can get on its own. Setting the "Reference" Average for each speaker is the baseline used to manage how low or loud your system will play at various scenes in a Movie.

So remembering this when you go to tweak certain channel trims, like boosting the Sub channel. Because it sounds too low at Reference using test tones. Reference test tone SPL is "Average" and can and will get much louder when playing actual content.

Having what we call "Reserve" or "Head room". This is another long topic. But the short of it is this. In a perfect world we are able to keep all AVR channel level Trims in the negative range. (-1 or more). Putting a trim in the positive rage can lead to clipping and/or distortion of that channel. This happens when the AVR tries to dive this channel to a dynamic loud scene and you are starting in a "positive trim" range at Ref average.

I see this happen mostly on Sub Level trims. On most subs, you now have two sets of trims to manage. The AVR LFE channel trim and the Sub Amp Trim itself. A rule of thumb here is you want the AVR LFE Sub Trim to be in the -4 to -8 range. This leaves adequate Sub Trim headroom. You use the Sub Amp trim to set the Ref Average Level. There is mush more about this in the Audyssey Part II Thread and in @mthomas47 Guide to Subwoofer Levels.

"Official" Audyssey thread Part II
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post #2681 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 08:23 AM
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Thanks guys,

My current setup is large with crossover set at 80Hz and as mentioned in the AVR I’m set at main + LFE
So I assumed as mentioned above that all my speakers will produce at 80 Hz then LFE comes in below this to the subs. Now the question is are the woofers in my 40’s being recognized as subs as well?

I think simplest be is set fronts back to small and AVR to LFE and be done.
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post #2682 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jphillips63 View Post
Ok thanks, one other question, I have the AVR set to main plus LFE. Even with this setting do I still go small and change from main + LFE it just LFE?


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Small, LFE, 80hz crossover on mains
Not necessarily, but the only way to figure out the best XO point is via REW. The room is going to decide this for you basically. My space does ok with an 80hz XO but at 100hz it is actually a much better integration.

On the LFE+Main part of the question, set it back to just plain LFE.
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post #2683 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 08:47 AM
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Advice from Ed Mullen of SVS on LFE or LFE + Mains.
http://www.subwoofer101.com/setting-...uble-bass-etc/
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post #2684 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 09:16 AM
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It is more than that. I am not sure which frequencies are covered during calibration but if you have peaks or nulls in your response you can have speakers that sound too loud or not loud enough. I set my own levels using a sweep and making sure the loudest peak(hopefully within good limits) is the loudest I hear.
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post #2685 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 09:51 AM
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^^
Exactly! My Audyssey set my speakers to 40hz and it sounds and measures much better at 110hz. I have not owned a speaker that can do 40hz better than my subs. THis includes dual 2226 woofers in the JBL speakers I owned.
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post #2686 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jphillips63 View Post
Thanks guys,

My current setup is large with crossover set at 80Hz and as mentioned in the AVR I’m set at main + LFE
So I assumed as mentioned above that all my speakers will produce at 80 Hz then LFE comes in below this to the subs. Now the question is are the woofers in my 40’s being recognized as subs as well?

I think simplest be is set fronts back to small and AVR to LFE and be done.
Small and LFE should be a good option. That will send everything below 80hz to your sub where you want it. Here is a link to more detail on the Denon support site.

The calibration routine won't really see your mains as subs, but they will incorrectly think that your mains are good at reproducing bass frequencies, which they generally aren't in comparison to a sub.
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post #2687 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 10:01 AM
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It is more than that. I am not sure which frequencies are covered during calibration but if you have peaks or nulls in your response you can have speakers that sound too loud or not loud enough. I set my own levels using a sweep and making sure the loudest peak(hopefully within good limits) is the loudest I hear.
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^^
Exactly! My Audyssey set my speakers to 40hz and it sounds and measures much better at 110hz. I have not owned a speaker that can do 40hz better than my subs. THis includes dual 2226 woofers in the JBL speakers I owned.
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post #2688 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 10:31 AM
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Yes yes, REW/Omnimic, whom I spend more time with some evenings than I do with my wife.
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post #2689 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 11:54 AM
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^^^

Just to follow up on the crossover and LFE+Main discussion, it can get a little bit confusing. The typical best practice advice I see is to set speakers to Small for anything with serious low bass in it, especially including 5.1 movies, and to set the crossover anywhere from 1/2 to 1 full octave above the measured F3 point of the speakers.

That is because, even with a crossover, the speakers will still be playing below the crossover point, although at a reduced volume, and taking more demand away from those speakers gives us more undistorted headroom above that lowest frequency. So, if an AVR sets a 40Hz crossover, for instance, your system is likely to be able to have more undistorted headroom with a crossover of 60Hz (1/2 octave above the roll-off point of that speaker) or 80Hz (1 full octave above the F3 point).

With respect to LFE+ Main, it is likely that in addition to putting more demand on your front speakers, you will also have some cancellation at some frequencies, and perhaps some audible distortion to go with it. I do get audible distortion when I try that setting. An easy way to remember what LFE+Main does is to think of it this way. With that setting, the subs play LFE (they always play the .1 LFE channel, if you have them enabled in your speaker configuration menu) but they also duplicate the bass in the main channels. That is where the term double bass comes from. As long as you have subs on in your speaker configuration menu, they will be the only ones playing the .1 LFE channel whether your front speakers are set to Large or to Small.

With LFE+Main, though, instead of using bass management to send the low bass from your two front channels to the subs, via a Small setting and a crossover, you are playing those same bass frequencies from the front channels in both your front speakers and your subwoofers. That doubling of bass from different sources, for the same two channels, can result in cancellation and distortion, as noted above. It's not a forbidden setting, and YMMV with respect to whether it actually sounds good, but it certainly isn't best practice.

Regards,
Mike
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post #2690 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
All this talk about MV and calibration of one's AVR to a specific level. Something I wanted to discuss here. A point that is not always clearly communicated. At least not in my mind anyway. Please correct me if I get this wrong. Always open to learning and tweaking my own knowledge.

When you set speaker trim levels, either manually or by employing Audyssey, MACC and/or other automated calibration software interface. What you are doing is setting an "Average" playback loudness level for each speaker/sub. Not a Maximum or Minimum volume level. But an "Average" Volume SPL.

All audio content is dynamic in terms of volume at particular points of time in the Film. This Dynamic Volume is what controls how loud each channel can get on its own. Setting the "Reference" Average for each speaker is the baseline used to manage how low or loud your system will play at various scenes in a Movie.

So remembering this when you go to tweak certain channel trims, like boosting the Sub channel. Because it sounds too low at Reference using test tones. Reference test tone SPL is "Average" and can and will get much louder when playing actual content.

Having what we call "Reserve" or "Head room". This is another long topic. But the short of it is this. In a perfect world we are able to keep all AVR channel level Trims in the negative range. (-1 or more). Putting a trim in the positive rage can lead to clipping and/or distortion of that channel. This happens when the AVR tries to dive this channel to a dynamic loud scene and you are starting in a "positive trim" range at Ref average.

I see this happen mostly on Sub Level trims. On most subs, you now have two sets of trims to manage. The AVR LFE channel trim and the Sub Amp Trim itself. A rule of thumb here is you want the AVR LFE Sub Trim to be in the -4 to -8 range. This leaves adequate Sub Trim headroom. You use the Sub Amp trim to set the Ref Average Level. There is mush more about this in the Audyssey Part II Thread and in @mthomas47 Guide to Subwoofer Levels.

"Official" Audyssey thread Part II
Hi Adam,

You asked me to comment on this. The issue of trim levels can be a little complicated, and the regular channels don't follow exactly the same best practice rules as the .1 subwoofer channel does. Any channel can distort if the volume demands exceed the capabilities of the speaker in question. But, it is low frequencies which may especially strain our system capabilities, in that regard, because it is the low frequencies which require so much more amplifier power compared to mid-bass and higher frequencies.

As noted, in your post, it is a good idea to always try to keep subwoofer AVR trims in the negative range--ideally at least -3 to -5. But, as I understand that, and as I quote some audio experts as saying in the subwoofer guide linked below, that is because you specifically want the voltage which powers your subs to come from the subwoofer amp and not from the AVR amp. The higher your AVR trim level is (and particularly above about -3) the more it is your AVR amp which is powering the subwoofer. Keeping the AVR trim level low for the subs, and using the subwoofer gain control to increase the sub boost, keeps the signal cleaner and helps to prevent clipping or other issues.

But, the situation is different for the regular channels. They are actually supposed to be powered by the AVR (or by an appropriate external amp) and there is nothing inherently wrong with having positive trim levels for those channels. This isn't really something that is subject to user control anyway. It will depend entirely on the relative sensitivity of the speakers, and on their distance from the MLP. When an AVR runs a calibration routine, using a 75db test signal, it will measure the FR of each speaker as it is at the MLP. And, it will set trim levels accordingly.

With a sub, if you don't like your trim levels, and want them to be deeper into the negative range, you can easily get them there by raising the gain control on your sub. That will increase the measured SPL of the sub and cause the automated calibration program to set a lower corresponding AVR trim level. But, we don't have a separate amplifier to allow us to do that with our regular channels, so our AVR trim levels for those channels are whatever they are. And, that is usually fine.

In my room, for instance, one pair of my speakers are (deliberately) 21' away from my MLP. There is no way, that I am getting solidly negative trim settings from that distance. But, that's okay. As long as I exercise reasonable bass management, I still have plenty of headroom to play as loudly as I want to. People who really want to play at Reference (0.0 MV) or higher, need to be mindful of both good bass management protocols and of the sensitivity of their speakers. But, for the vast majority of HT systems (and users), Reference volumes will be much too loud anyway, and the speakers will be perfectly capable of playing with sufficient headroom, even at positive trim levels.

Again, the whole positive/negative trim level dichotomy is based on the advisability of using subwoofer amplifiers for the subs, rather than AVR amplifiers, and it applies only to the subs. Of course, if someone has excessively high trim levels for the regular channels, and is exceeding their capabilities, then larger, more sensitive speakers may be required. Horn speakers are especially capable of producing high SPL, for instance.

I hope that this explanation is helpful.

Regards,
Mike
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post #2691 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Lucy Blu-Ray Image quality is absolutely insane





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The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts Heavy Cinematic | Heavy Electronic|
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post #2692 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 01:17 PM
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Lucy is has a killer soundtrack too, her good looks also helps!





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post #2693 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 01:22 PM
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Lucy Blu-Ray Image quality is absolutely insane




4k blu-ray PQ is even more insane.

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post #2694 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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4k blu-ray PQ is even more insane.

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That's what i was thinking man nothing beats a properly done blu-ray. I love when they give the movie its own disc with maximum bitrate.

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The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts Heavy Cinematic | Heavy Electronic|
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post #2695 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 02:25 PM
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Lucy Blu-Ray Image quality is absolutely insane






If you think the bluray is great, you should see it in 4K!


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post #2696 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^^

Just to follow up on the crossover and LFE+Main discussion, it can get a little bit confusing. The typical best practice advice I see is to set speakers to Small for anything with serious low bass in it, especially including 5.1 movies, and to set the crossover anywhere from 1/2 to 1 full octave above the measured F3 point of the speakers.

That is because, even with a crossover, the speakers will still be playing below the crossover point, although at a reduced volume, and taking more demand away from those speakers gives us more undistorted headroom above that lowest frequency. So, if an AVR sets a 40Hz crossover, for instance, your system is likely to be able to have more undistorted headroom with a crossover of 60Hz (1/2 octave above the roll-off point of that speaker) or 80Hz (1 full octave above the F3 point).

With respect to LFE+ Main, it is likely that in addition to putting more demand on your front speakers, you will also have some cancellation at some frequencies, and perhaps some audible distortion to go with it. I do get audible distortion when I try that setting. An easy way to remember what LFE+Main does is to think of it this way. With that setting, the subs play LFE (they always play the .1 LFE channel, if you have them enabled in your speaker configuration menu) but they also duplicate the bass in the main channels. That is where the term double bass comes from. As long as you have subs on in your speaker configuration menu, they will be the only ones playing the .1 LFE channel whether your front speakers are set to Large or to Small.

With LFE+Main, though, instead of using bass management to send the low bass from your two front channels to the subs, via a Small setting and a crossover, you are playing those same bass frequencies from the front channels in both your front speakers and your subwoofers. That doubling of bass from different sources, for the same two channels, can result in cancellation and distortion, as noted above. It's not a forbidden setting, and YMMV with respect to whether it actually sounds good, but it certainly isn't best practice.

Regards,
Mike


Thank you for this input. I originally had my setup small and let the sub do the work. Then told I'm loosing out on the full range of the ML speakers that I should do the large LFE+main so I did. Audessey sets my speakers at 80Hz and that's where I've always kept them. I'm now reading where some guys are setting at 100 and up.
I really need to get a mic and read up on REW and figure all this out, or when I get my new McIntosh amps and upgrade my front speakers to the electrostatic ESL's I may hire a calibrator to come and get everything setup.
Thank you all for the advice and help, I'll definitely set the fronts back at small and the AVR to LFE


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post #2697 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jphillips63 View Post
Thank you for this input. I originally had my setup small and let the sub do the work. Then told I'm loosing out on the full range of the ML speakers that I should do the large LFE+main so I did. Audessey sets my speakers at 80Hz and that's where I've always kept them. I'm now reading where some guys are setting at 100 and up.
I really need to get a mic and read up on REW and figure all this out, or when I get my new McIntosh amps and upgrade my front speakers to the electrostatic ESL's I may hire a calibrator to come and get everything setup.
Thank you all for the advice and help, I'll definitely set the fronts back at small and the AVR to LFE

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You are very welcome! All of this becomes simpler as we think about it and experiment with our own systems, while listening (and/or measuring) critically.

Using a calibrator can be a good idea to help get you started on new equipment, particularly if you have some very sophisticated software involved. But, it's sort of a one-time shot, and you may find that you end up wanting to change some things, anyway. It may be very hard, for instance, to use exactly the same settings for all of your music and movie listening.

I think that as you continue to read and ask questions, and then as you listen to the differences in the various settings, you will start to discover what really works best in your room and with your audio system. Measurements can also help to accelerate that process.

It sounds as if you are going to have a very nice audio system.

Regards,
Mike
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post #2698 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 03:43 PM
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This is how bad it is. When the wife falls asleep on the couch watching tv, I run my hand over her to check if she's asleep then sneak into my room. Two minutes later she's in there. How do they do that! She calls my room the Mistress
Bwahahahahaaaa! That's awesome!
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post #2699 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
This is how bad it is. When the wife falls asleep on the couch watching tv, I run my hand over her to check if she's asleep then sneak into my room. Two minutes later she's in there. How do they do that! She calls my room the Mistress
Bwahahahahaaaa! That's awesome!
I'm with fist, that's hilarious. I have no idea how they do it. I tell my wife it's woman magic.
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post #2700 of 3195 Old 09-22-2017, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MrGrey View Post
[CENTER]Lucy Blu-Ray Image quality is absolutely insane

Lucy has incredible visuals. And I really liked the movie for the first half of it. And then it got weird, really weird IMO. My favorite genre is SciFi but Lucy pushed my limits. Having said that, it's definitely a movie worth seeing.

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