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post #91 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 03:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
After running Audyssey, did you reboot the sub amps with the PGM switch out to engage the LF boost?

For more mid-bass you can try increasing the x-over requency in the processor above 80Hz to as high as 120Hz.


I did not. My understanding was that if the PGM button is out then it reduces the punch. I tried crossover at 90hz as well. The bass just does not seem to be clean or punchy.


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post #92 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 08:41 AM
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[quote=imureh;53709889]
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Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post
Just turn off one sub, run sweep. Repeat for the second sub.[/QUOTE

Ran independent sweeps for each sub with ctr. This is still without Audyssey. I see issues with both. Perhaps time to run Audyssey before I put both of them in front?

Looking at the above graph, I don't see a significant benefit to the rear subwoofer location. We started with this location as you had previously found your SVS to work better here, but we hadn't seen any measurements of what was going on at that time. I would recommend both subwoofer set symmetrically left and right up front with the amplifiers pointing at the side walls. After moving the rear sub to this location, turn off Audyssey, set the sub levels and distances the same in your receiver, and then re-take the measurements with the main speakers off.

Again, 3 measurements are key, first right sub, then left sub, then both together. I would run all of this with the receiver in Dolby Pro Logic, Movie mode. Do not adjust the level between measurements. We want to see what the combination of the two are.

Assuming the left/right combo combine without big dips in the response, again without adjusting levels, now turn on/plug in your center channel and measure, then once again with both subs flipped off so we can see the center channel only.

Narrow dips won't cause a boomy sound, but peaks can, as can over-corrections of a dip that is only at the measurement position. I suspect what you are hearing is the attempt at correcting the 55-75Hz range combined with some fighting of the sub with the LCR bass response. Finally, how many measurement locations did you use for Audyssey and how did you place the microphone?
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post #93 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I have added the combined in as well with the individual ones. Dip still there at 70hz onwards. The bass is not as clean as I expected

To confirm, is this graph with or without Audyssey? Are the distance and levels matched in the receivers and on the amplifiers? The dip in the 35Hz range is likely a structural asymmetry, and not uncommon. I would suggest trying to set the crossover in the 70-80Hz range. After running Audyssey you may have to go back into the setup and re-adjust the subwoofer's distance and level to match them if Audssey tries to set them differently. Finally, what frequency did Audyssey set the crossover to on your main speakers?

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post #94 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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[quote=Mark Seaton;53739417]
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post



Looking at the above graph, I don't see a significant benefit to the rear subwoofer location. We started with this location as you had previously found your SVS to work better here, but we hadn't seen any measurements of what was going on at that time. I would recommend both subwoofer set symmetrically left and right up front with the amplifiers pointing at the side walls. After moving the rear sub to this location, turn off Audyssey, set the sub levels and distances the same in your receiver, and then re-take the measurements with the main speakers off.



Again, 3 measurements are key, first right sub, then left sub, then both together. I would run all of this with the receiver in Dolby Pro Logic, Movie mode. Do not adjust the level between measurements. We want to see what the combination of the two are.



Assuming the left/right combo combine without big dips in the response, again without adjusting levels, now turn on/plug in your center channel and measure, then once again with both subs flipped off so we can see the center channel only.



Narrow dips won't cause a boomy sound, but peaks can, as can over-corrections of a dip that is only at the measurement position. I suspect what you are hearing is the attempt at correcting the 55-75Hz range combined with some fighting of the sub with the LCR bass response. Finally, how many measurement locations did you use for Audyssey and how did you place the microphone?


Mark, I added some more graphs last night that you can see with the subs up front. Them issue seems to be the left sided of the room. I can however follow your suggestions tonight and post some additional graphs. I am following the REW guide to set MV on AVR for measurements which states that the pink noise should 40db above the room floor noise which in my room with projector on is 65db and then I add 40db to it. I am taking 8 measurements and I am using a boom stand to play the UMIK at ear level at MLP


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post #95 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
To confirm, is this graph with or without Audyssey? Are the distance and levels matched in the receivers and on the amplifiers? The dip in the 35Hz range is likely a structural asymmetry, and not uncommon. I would suggest trying to set the crossover in the 70-80Hz range. After running Audyssey you may have to go back into the setup and re-adjust the subwoofer's distance and level to match them if Audssey tries to set them differently. Finally, what frequency did Audyssey set the crossover to on your main speakers?


These are with Audyssey. The distance is a little different as the MLP is off to one side so I did not change that. However the levels were matched. I also changed the crossover to 80 again. Audyssey sets my fronts at 40hz and center at 60hz. One thing I have done is at the start calibration I set the subs to 85db each instead of the 75db Audyssey wants. Set at 75db the volume on the subs was -24db and the trim in AVR at -10.5db and I could barely hear the sub. I then started with 85db and then bumped up the trim in AVR to -5db. Even then I am not feeling any impact or feel the bass being clean.


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post #96 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
These are with Audyssey. The distance is a little different as the MLP is off to one side so I did not change that. However the levels were matched. I also changed the crossover to 80 again. Audyssey sets my fronts at 40hz and center at 60hz. One thing I have done is at the start calibration I set the subs to 85db each instead of the 75db Audyssey wants. Set at 75db the volume on the subs was -24db and the trim in AVR at -10.5db and I could barely hear the sub. I then started with 85db and then bumped up the trim in AVR to -5db. Even then I am not feeling any impact or feel the bass being clean.
Definitely a calibration issue.

Please measure the front subs again without Audyssey. In most cases you will want the distances and level for the pair to be the same rather than different, even with the seat offset. You lose some of the modal cancellation benefits if you have different distances. In short, you only want to set them different if you have clear measurements that show you get a better result. Also be sure to manually set the speakers to ~80Hz crossover after running Audyssey, else most of the bass content won't make it to the subs. While raising the sub level is common, the level you describe seems a bit excessive. Go through the measurements I described and I suspect we'll find the issue. Starting the Audyssey calibration with the subs at 80-85dB is just fine and what I recommend with our subwoofers (not recommended for some less powerful and many vented subs).
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post #97 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Definitely a calibration issue.



Please measure the front subs again without Audyssey. In most cases you will want the distances and level for the pair to be the same rather than different, even with the seat offset. You lose some of the modal cancellation benefits if you have different distances. In short, you only want to set them different if you have clear measurements that show you get a better result. Also be sure to manually set the speakers to ~80Hz crossover after running Audyssey, else most of the bass content won't make it to the subs. While raising the sub level is common, the level you describe seems a bit excessive. Go through the measurements I described and I suspect we'll find the issue. Starting the Audyssey calibration with the subs at 80-85dB is just fine and what I recommend with our subwoofers (not recommended for some less powerful and many vented subs).


Is there a preference on distance as to what it should be set to? I.e. Physically left sub will be 2 ft from MLP and the otero about 8ft, so do I pick 5ft or 6ft (middle distance) as distance for both subs or pick either 2ft or 8ft?


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post #98 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Is there a preference on distance as to what it should be set to? I.e. Physically left sub will be 2 ft from MLP and the otero about 8ft, so do I pick 5ft or 6ft (middle distance) as distance for both subs or pick either 2ft or 8ft?


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-5 man? Lol. That's some serious boost; I like it! But, it's too much. And, if that's not helping, then there's a different issue.

Where are the crossovers on your speakers set? They should be at 80hz. If they're not, that explains the issue you're having with not getting bass.

Middle distance I would think....but you might have to adjust by your ears.

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post #99 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post
-5 man? Lol. That's some serious boost; I like it! But, it's too much. And, if that's not helping, then there's a different issue.



Where are the crossovers on your speakers set? They should be at 80hz. If they're not, that explains the issue you're having with not getting bass.



Middle distance I would think....but you might have to adjust by your ears.


Yeah I will follow Mark's steps today and post updates graphs. Crossover is set at 80hz. Let's see if the distance makes a dramatic difference. I am a bit skeptical.


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post #100 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 01:22 PM
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Maybe calibration issue.....if it was me I'd take away all processing and room correction. I'd just run all speakers manually to small, set to 80hz crossover, LFE to 120 all done on AVR. Then make sure subs are on 0 degree phase with crossover bypassed. Get spl meter and sit at MLP and run all speakers and each sub at 75db....both subs together should net you 3 to 6db.

Now go run REW again and see what it looks like. Basically sometimes Audessey and other processing cause some issues so we are trying to eliminate variables.

As far as sub distance, just use the average of the two if your AVR can not do each sub individually.

Don't worry, we all will get you there....sometimes takes few pairs of eyes or ears to cover everything.

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post #101 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Maybe calibration issue.....if it was me I'd take away all processing and room correction. I'd just run all speakers manually to small, set to 80hz crossover, LFE to 120 all done on AVR. Then make sure subs are on 0 degree phase with crossover bypassed. Get spl meter and sit at MLP and run all speakers and each sub at 75db....both subs together should net you 3 to 6db.



Now go run REW again and see what it looks like. Basically sometimes Audessey and other processing cause some issues so we are trying to eliminate variables.



As far as sub distance, just use the average of the two if your AVR can not do each sub individually.



Don't worry, we all will get you there....sometimes takes few pairs of eyes or ears to cover everything.


Thanks. So the amp on these does not phase or crossover. Speakers are set to small and crossed at 80hz. The AVR is a 4300H so it does do individual sub distance but according to Mark up above they should be said to the same distance.


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post #102 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Thanks. So the amp on these does not phase or crossover. Speakers are set to small and crossed at 80hz. The AVR is a 4300H so it does do individual sub distance but according to Mark up above they should be said to the same distance.


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I was referring to your sub amp for the phase and bypassing crossover. Most subs do that as far as I know.

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post #103 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I was referring to your sub amp for the phase and bypassing crossover. Most subs do that as far as I know.


These don't


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post #104 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Will send a pic later


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post #105 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I was referring to your sub amp for the phase and bypassing crossover. Most subs do that as far as I know.


Here how the subs are placed and here the amp pic.


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post #106 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Definitely a calibration issue.

Please measure the front subs again without Audyssey. In most cases you will want the distances and level for the pair to be the same rather than different, even with the seat offset. You lose some of the modal cancellation benefits if you have different distances. In short, you only want to set them different if you have clear measurements that show you get a better result. Also be sure to manually set the speakers to ~80Hz crossover after running Audyssey, else most of the bass content won't make it to the subs. While raising the sub level is common, the level you describe seems a bit excessive. Go through the measurements I described and I suspect we'll find the issue. Starting the Audyssey calibration with the subs at 80-85dB is just fine and what I recommend with our subwoofers (not recommended for some less powerful and many vented subs).
Here are the graphs we discussed, are there any I am missing?

Subs Raw



Center Channel Raw





Left and Right Channels plus Sub




Subs post Audyssey Including Distance tweak



Speakers plus Subs post Audyssey

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post #107 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 07:20 PM
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Your MLP isn't exactly in middle of the room is it? Thats usually where 70-80hz null is. Try running REW with mic at few feet behind you or front of MLP and see what it looks like.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Here are the graphs we discussed, are there any I am missing?


Those look good until you add the center or L&R. It looks like you need to do the post Audyssey distance tweak. That should fix or help the dip after 70hz

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9x76z07se4...02013.pdf?dl=0

I'm sure Mark will have some helpful feedback also but I just thought I would post this if you want to try it before he gets back to you.

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post #109 of 319 Old 06-19-2017, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Your MLP isn't exactly in middle of the room is it? Thats usually where 70-80hz null is. Try running REW with mic at few feet behind you or front of MLP and see what it looks like.
Yeah the MLP is off to the left of the room, which where the measurements I posted yesterday were from, so today after talking Mark, I took measurements from the center seat and those are ones I have posted this evening.
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
Those look good until you add the center or L&R. It looks like you need to do the post Audyssey distance tweak. That should fix or help the dip after 70hz

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9x76z07se4...02013.pdf?dl=0

I'm sure Mark will have some helpful feedback also but I just thought I would post this if you want to try it before he gets back to you.
Thanks, I did this to tweak to improve the combined sub response but not for speakers. Will wait for Mark to come back before I make any further changes. My crossover is set at 80hz so interesting there is a dip starting around 70hz
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Your post Audyssey sub only response is looking great, so that's awesome, looks to be +/- 3dB from 15-100Hz (likely below 15Hz too) outside of that ~60-70Hz dip. As others have mentioned, your subs are out of phase with the L/C/R speakers around the crossover creating some pretty massive nulls in the 60-90Hz range, depending on speaker. You're getting there! Keep up the good work.

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post #112 of 319 Old 06-20-2017, 08:54 AM
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Hi imureh,

Thank you for sticking with us and persisting on this effort. The measurements confirm that most of what you are hearing and fighting with is a function of speaker, subwoofer, and listener locations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Here are the graphs we discussed, are there any I am missing?

Subs Raw

While the lowest frequencies are summing pretty well, looking above 60Hz we see points where the curves overlay, but the sum is not much more than either one. This means there may be some room to improve this by increasing the distance of likely the right subwoofer, although the drop and corrected Audyssey curve is workable as you have it now.


Quote:
Center Channel Raw



Left and Right Channels plus Sub
Here is the crux of the matter. Both the listening location and speaker locations are resulting in a 10-20dB loss of energy in the 65-90Hz range along with the peak around 100Hz. If the speakers, listening location, and acoustics of the room stay as they are, you need the subwoofers to fill in the huge hole we see here in the response. This means we really need the crossover closer to 90Hz and we need to get the energy from the subs... or move the speakers. Some very thick treatment would help reduce the height of the peak and depth of the dip, but won't eliminate it.

The above graphs were missing the 3rd measurement we need, which is that of the subwoofers only (unplug the negative wire from the back of the speaker). Don't bother with this on the raw measurements, as we can now move directly to the Audyssey measurements. The promising detail is that I see a bigger drop above 60Hz in the combined response than I do in the subwoofer response. This suggests that adjusting the relative distance of the pair of subs as a group could result in a stronger combination with less of a suckout.

Quote:
Subs post Audyssey Including Distance tweak

Please re-run the above with just 3 measurements with both subs set at the same distance. Left sub, right sub, both subs. I suspect we can add some distance to the right sub and see some improvement in the dip around 70Hz.

Quote:
Speakers plus Subs post Audyssey

Let's focus on the center channel + sub with Audyssey left on. We need 3 curves to see what can be improved. Measure through HDMI channel 3 (center): Subwoofer pair only, center speaker only, combination.
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post #113 of 319 Old 06-20-2017, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Hi imureh,



Thank you for sticking with us and persisting on this effort. The measurements confirm that most of what you are hearing and fighting with is a function of speaker, subwoofer, and listener locations.







While the lowest frequencies are summing pretty well, looking above 60Hz we see points where the curves overlay, but the sum is not much more than either one. This means there may be some room to improve this by increasing the distance of likely the right subwoofer, although the drop and corrected Audyssey curve is workable as you have it now.









Here is the crux of the matter. Both the listening location and speaker locations are resulting in a 10-20dB loss of energy in the 65-90Hz range along with the peak around 100Hz. If the speakers, listening location, and acoustics of the room stay as they are, you need the subwoofers to fill in the huge hole we see here in the response. This means we really need the crossover closer to 90Hz and we need to get the energy from the subs... or move the speakers. Some very thick treatment would help reduce the height of the peak and depth of the dip, but won't eliminate it.



The above graphs were missing the 3rd measurement we need, which is that of the subwoofers only (unplug the negative wire from the back of the speaker). Don't bother with this on the raw measurements, as we can now move directly to the Audyssey measurements. The promising detail is that I see a bigger drop above 60Hz in the combined response than I do in the subwoofer response. This suggests that adjusting the relative distance of the pair of subs as a group could result in a stronger combination with less of a suckout.







Please re-run the above with just 3 measurements with both subs set at the same distance. Left sub, right sub, both subs. I suspect we can add some distance to the right sub and see some improvement in the dip around 70Hz.







Let's focus on the center channel + sub with Audyssey left on. We need 3 curves to see what can be improved. Measure through HDMI channel 3 (center): Subwoofer pair only, center speaker only, combination.


Thanks Mark, so to summarize for today, I will run the following:

All of these are with Audyssey on and the sub levels as they were set yesterday. Correct?

1. One graph with center channel only, subs only, and center channel with subs

2. One graph with left sub, right sub and then combined with the current distance which is set at 9ft for both. This was updated manually from where Audyssey had set it at

3. One graph with distance increased on right sub. Then run left sub, right sub and combined

Do I have this correct or missing something?

I will run these in evening today after I am back from work.


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Last edited by imureh; 06-20-2017 at 09:20 AM.
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post #114 of 319 Old 06-20-2017, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Thanks Mark, so to summarize for today, I will run the following:

1. One graph with center channel only, subs only, and center channel with subs

2. One graph with left sub, right sub and then combined with the current distance which is set at 9ft for both. This was updated manually from where Audyssey had set it at

3. One graph with distance increased on right sub. Then run left sub, right sub and combined

Do I have this correct or missing something?

I will run these in evening today after I am back from work.
Let's adjust to this and try to make more progress tonight:

1. One graph with center channel only, subs only, and center channel with subs

2. One graph showing the center+subs from #1 , but repeating the measurement while increasing the distance of *both* subwoofers in the Denon by 2, 4, 6, & 8' from the 9' setting you currently have, which = 11', 13', 15', 17' on the subwoofers. If you see a range that reduces the dip, you can measure at smaller increments in between.

3. One graph with left sub, right sub and then combined with the same distance you left from #2.

4. One graph starting with combined response from #3 , now increasing the distance on the right subwoofer in 1' increments to see if the combination increases, particularly around 65Hz. If you don't see any real improvement when adding 8+ feet to the right sub, reset to the same distance and try adding 1-5' to the left sub.

When adjusting the distances there will be ranges that will make it worse. Seeing that it gets worse means there will be another setting that should make for a better combination. Remember a 1/4 wavelength at 65Hz is about 4.3', so this is akin to ~90 deg phase shift. This means you might need more than 1-2' of adjustment.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Let's adjust to this and try to make more progress tonight:



1. One graph with center channel only, subs only, and center channel with subs



2. One graph showing the center+subs from #1 , but repeating the measurement while increasing the distance of *both* subwoofers in the Denon by 2, 4, 6, & 8' from the 9' setting you currently have, which = 11', 13', 15', 17' on the subwoofers. If you see a range that reduces the dip, you can measure at smaller increments in between.



3. One graph with left sub, right sub and then combined with the same distance you left from #2.



4. One graph starting with combined response from #3 , now increasing the distance on the right subwoofer in 1' increments to see if the combination increases, particularly around 65Hz. If you don't see any real improvement when adding 8+ feet to the right sub, reset to the same distance and try adding 1-5' to the left sub.



When adjusting the distances there will be ranges that will make it worse. Seeing that it gets worse means there will be another setting that should make for a better combination. Remember a 1/4 wavelength at 65Hz is about 4.3', so this is akin to ~90 deg phase shift. This means you might need more than 1-2' of adjustment.


Thanks will run tonight. Also, do you think turning the subs (both or left or right) to have the Amp parallel to front or back wall rather than side wall be better?


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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Thanks will run tonight. Also, do you think turning the subs (both or left or right) to have the Amp parallel to front or back wall rather than side wall be better?
Rotating the subwoofer ends up moving one of the woofers about 16-18" further from the wall, and only moves the acoustic center less than 6" further from the wall. I wouldn't expect a big difference. Any difference measured will be relatively subtle and at the top end of the subwoofer range. You are welcome to measure and see.

Could you also confirm the dimensions of the room, distance of your seat from the walls, and how far from the forward the SubMersives currently are in the room from the front wall (measure to ~center of the box). You do always have the option of stacking the SubMersives in a single location, but any location exhibiting a big dip above 70Hz will just give you a different flavor of the same limitations.

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Rotating the subwoofer ends up moving one of the woofers about 16-18" further from the wall, and only moves the acoustic center less than 6" further from the wall. I wouldn't expect a big difference. Any difference measured will be relatively subtle and at the top end of the subwoofer range. You are welcome to measure and see.



Could you also confirm the dimensions of the room, distance of your seat from the walls, and how far from the forward the SubMersives currently are in the room from the front wall (measure to ~center of the box). You do always have the option of stacking the SubMersives in a single location, but any location exhibiting a big dip above 70Hz will just give you a different flavor of the same limitations.


The room is 12x19x9 where 12 is the width of room. The subs are about 4 feet from front wall.


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post #118 of 319 Old 06-20-2017, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Let's adjust to this and try to make more progress tonight:

1. One graph with center channel only, subs only, and center channel with subs

2. One graph showing the center+subs from #1 , but repeating the measurement while increasing the distance of *both* subwoofers in the Denon by 2, 4, 6, & 8' from the 9' setting you currently have, which = 11', 13', 15', 17' on the subwoofers. If you see a range that reduces the dip, you can measure at smaller increments in between.

3. One graph with left sub, right sub and then combined with the same distance you left from #2.

4. One graph starting with combined response from #3 , now increasing the distance on the right subwoofer in 1' increments to see if the combination increases, particularly around 65Hz. If you don't see any real improvement when adding 8+ feet to the right sub, reset to the same distance and try adding 1-5' to the left sub.

When adjusting the distances there will be ranges that will make it worse. Seeing that it gets worse means there will be another setting that should make for a better combination. Remember a 1/4 wavelength at 65Hz is about 4.3', so this is akin to ~90 deg phase shift. This means you might need more than 1-2' of adjustment.
Mark, attached are the graphs. All were run with Audyssey on and Subs were run on HDMI 3 with center disconnected. The sub distance tweak for both together and each separately seems to have no effect. They measurements are identical.

Center only, subs only and center + subs



Ctr + subs with increase in sub distance



Subs only with Distance in previous step at 17ft



Subs combined with distance change in right sub first and then left sub

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Everything looks good to me @imureh . I'm not sure if the Audyssey app is fixed yet as we could use the target curve editor to dial in more in the mid-bass. Do you have the app?

You may need nearfield MBMs to REALLY get the chest slam you seek.
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post #120 of 319 Old 06-20-2017, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Everything looks good to me @imureh . I'm not sure if the Audyssey app is fixed yet as we could use the target curve editor to dial in more in the mid-bass. Do you have the app?

You may need nearfield MBMs to REALLY get the chest slam you seek.
I did not get the app as it still appears to be buggy. If you look at the graphs I posted yesterday and even today, you will see that I am losing 10-12db in the 70hz onwards range which is an issue. If I go with the MBM, then I would return these and get a ported sub like Cap 1400 or 2400 and a MBM that will cover me in both frequency ranges. However the issue seems to be the interaction of speakers, subs and the room, all fighting with each other. The issue seems to be worse since I got duals rather than my old single SVS..may be duals are not right for my room, hence the single sub solution I noted above....
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