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post #1 of 42 Old 08-14-2017, 01:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Question Fallen down the subwoofer rabbit hole

I bought a new 4K tv a few months ago and realized the rest of my home theater gear is 20 years old except for the AVR and center channel speaker that are also brand new.

I've been using the same Velodyne CT-120 since I was in college in the late 1990s. To Velodyne's credit, it's never had a problem and still shakes the furniture. My living room is 25' x 25' with 12' vaulted ceilings and is also open to the kitchen and 2 huge hallways over 40' long and 6' wide. Pretty much an open floor plan, no idea what the actual cubic feet would be. Anywhere but the MLP and a few other random places the SPL seems to drop greatly.

At first I planned on getting a 12" Klipsch or two to match the rest of my speakers. (Replacing the 4 infinity towers this fall with 4x Klipsch RP-280F). Then I saw the 15" Klipsch sub that's around $800 along with the SVS PB-2000 and began reading reviews that mentioned PSA and other 15" ID subs. That's around when I started getting redirected to threads in this forum.

I'm guessing a PSA 15v would be a huge step up from the CT-120. I don't think the CT-120 goes much lower than 40hz and would probably relegate it to end table / near field duty. The plan would be to buy another 15v a few months down the road. It's a huge room so I'm not expecting anything crazy like feeling chest thumping sound sitting 12' away.

So, the closer I get to pulling the trigger on a 15v, the V1500 starts looking like a good option to consider for $150 more. I've also picked up on people really being in love with the Rythmik 15 and the PSA 1801. Seems like the standard advice is buy the biggest sub you can then buy another one to smooth things out. The PSA 1801 would be the upper limit of my budget. The bigger cabinet that the JTR cap uses is awesome but not $600 more awesome - especially when it comes to buying another matching sub by around xmas.

Is there something similar to the 1801 with a bigger cabinet? WAF isn't a thing for me and there's no shortage of space to put subs around here. I really don't have the tools or patience for DIY. If I'm still adding subs a year from now I'll look at DIY and use the 15v or whatever I buy now for sofa tables.

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post #2 of 42 Old 08-14-2017, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gob Bluth View Post
I bought a new 4K tv a few months ago and realized the rest of my home theater gear is 20 years old except for the AVR and center channel speaker that are also brand new.

I've been using the same Velodyne CT-120 since I was in college in the late 1990s. To Velodyne's credit, it's never had a problem and still shakes the furniture. My living room is 25' x 25' with 12' vaulted ceilings and is also open to the kitchen and 2 huge hallways over 40' long and 6' wide. Pretty much an open floor plan, no idea what the actual cubic feet would be. Anywhere but the MLP and a few other random places the SPL seems to drop greatly.

At first I planned on getting a 12" Klipsch or two to match the rest of my speakers. (Replacing the 4 infinity towers this fall with 4x Klipsch RP-280F). Then I saw the 15" Klipsch sub that's around $800 along with the SVS PB-2000 and began reading reviews that mentioned PSA and other 15" ID subs. That's around when I started getting redirected to threads in this forum.

I'm guessing a PSA 15v would be a huge step up from the CT-120. I don't think the CT-120 goes much lower than 40hz and would probably relegate it to end table / near field duty. The plan would be to buy another 15v a few months down the road. It's a huge room so I'm not expecting anything crazy like feeling chest thumping sound sitting 12' away.

So, the closer I get to pulling the trigger on a 15v, the V1500 starts looking like a good option to consider for $150 more. I've also picked up on people really being in love with the Rythmik 15 and the PSA 1801. Seems like the standard advice is buy the biggest sub you can then buy another one to smooth things out. The PSA 1801 would be the upper limit of my budget. The bigger cabinet that the JTR cap uses is awesome but not $600 more awesome - especially when it comes to buying another matching sub by around xmas.

Is there something similar to the 1801 with a bigger cabinet? WAF isn't a thing for me and there's no shortage of space to put subs around here. I really don't have the tools or patience for DIY. If I'm still adding subs a year from now I'll look at DIY and use the 15v or whatever I buy now for sofa tables.
The V1500 is a really good sub , as is the 15v...The V1500 is actually a bigger box than the V1801 and I think that helps it dig a little deeper than the 1801...The 1801 is really compact and that does hurt its performance compared to a JTR , but where most movie content and music above 30hz it really pounds...I have no complaints with mine , but if the 15v or v15 are cheaper and lead you closer to owning duals sooner , I would go with one of those. The jump between the v15 and the 1801 wont be nearly as drastic as to what you are coming from..There may be other good options from Rythmik , or HSU although I havent heard them but they get rave reviews from everyone , although I am not 100% clear on pricing.

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post #3 of 42 Old 08-14-2017, 03:41 PM
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(I prefer sealed subs)
You could go cheap but if you can afford it, you will get better quality by spending more
For that size room you need more sub to crack your walls. Dual 15s probably won't be too exciting...

Dual JTR 2400 or dual 1400, or dual 4000 dual S2s
Seaton dual Teraform XL or quad F18s
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post #4 of 42 Old 08-14-2017, 03:54 PM
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+1^

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post #5 of 42 Old 08-14-2017, 04:02 PM
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Im a music guy and love the rythmik ported 15 subs in my sig. the fv25hp which just came out is crazy powerful. hits hard, low, deep, all the stuff you want in a sub.

JTR is loved by so many on this forum, but I havent heard.
Seaton
Funk
PSA
DSS
HSU
SVS

all above well respected. probably many more.

I also own velodyne hgs subs, rythmik better in many ways...but my velodyne sub still kicking and I have nothing bad to say about it, plus it has a remote control which I love.

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post #6 of 42 Old 08-14-2017, 05:04 PM
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Upper budget of V1801 would be $1400, there is something larger (taller) than the V1801 that's quite a bit more powerful at $1599 + shipping. It's not as powerful as the Cap 1400 (less powerful driver and amp) but its $400 less as well. The 118HT uses the same cabinet as the Cap 1400 I believe.

http://jtrspeakers.com/captivator-118ht.html
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post #7 of 42 Old 08-14-2017, 05:24 PM
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The JTR Captivator 118HT (~$1749 shipped) is definitely worth the extra $350 over the PSA V1801.

Have you looked at this? FS: Power Sound Audio S3000i subwoofer

Marc also has 2 Seaton MFW15-SS Turbos for sale. Each of those is equivalent to the top $1000 subs you are considering.
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post #8 of 42 Old 08-14-2017, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
Upper budget of V1801 would be $1400, there is something larger (taller) than the V1801 that's quite a bit more powerful at $1599 + shipping. It's not as powerful as the Cap 1400 (less powerful driver and amp) but its $400 less as well. The 118HT uses the same cabinet as the Cap 1400 I believe.
I'll look into the 118H and take a second look at the FV15HP.

The PSA 15's seem like pretty good bang for the buck. I get that 15" is on the small side for half of a house but am not entirely disappointed by the 12" I have now. The nulls are the biggest problem. Thanks for all the replies / help.

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post #9 of 42 Old 08-14-2017, 09:11 PM
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well if you wanna go cheap you can always go cheap. i had 1 sub, HSU stf2 300$ in my old Texas house with livingroom 20x20x20(yes ft) and all open to kitchen and other rooms and upstairs, and it filled the space with some kind of bass quite ok, probably 30-40hz and up. non-connaiseurs were quite intrigued by it...
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post #10 of 42 Old 08-15-2017, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gob Bluth View Post
I'll look into the 118H and take a second look at the FV15HP.

The PSA 15's seem like pretty good bang for the buck. I get that 15" is on the small side for half of a house but am not entirely disappointed by the 12" I have now. The nulls are the biggest problem. Thanks for all the replies / help.
to negate the nulls for the listening position look up "the subwoofer crawl"

and to get comparisons between the 15 and 18 ask tom v. on psa (owner) he is a straight shooter and doesn't push stuff that won't work for you

Audyssey is a great start, but not always a great finish.
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post #11 of 42 Old 08-15-2017, 08:55 AM
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I Did forget about the 118ht , I got to hear that one and it was definitely a good performer....Although it is a bit more than the 1801...

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post #12 of 42 Old 08-15-2017, 01:13 PM
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A few I'm comparing:

Power Sound Audio V1500 $1099 USA 5 yr.
Rythmik Audio FV15HP $1338 China 2 yr.
HSU VTF-15H MK2 $899 China 2 yr./7 yr.
SVS PB12-PLUS $1400 China 5 yr.

Which may or may not be helpful...
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post #13 of 42 Old 08-15-2017, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishluck73 View Post
A few I'm comparing:

Power Sound Audio V1500 $1099 USA 5 yr.
Rythmik Audio FV15HP $1338 China 2 yr.
HSU VTF-15H MK2 $899 China 2 yr./7 yr.
SVS PB12-PLUS $1400 China 5 yr.

Which may or may not be helpful...
Take out the SVS PB12-Plus for $1400... It really doesn't belong in the list. Also the Hsu VTF-15H MK2 is $1068 shipped. You should always include shipping.

I would lump them like this:

~$1100 subs:
Power Sound Audio V1500 $1,099 USA 5 yr.
HSU VTF-15H MK2 $1,068 China 2 yr. / 7 yr.

~$1400 subs:
Rythmik Audio FV15HP $1,338 China 3 yr. / 5 yr.
PSA V1801 $1,400 USA 5 yrs.
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post #14 of 42 Old 08-15-2017, 01:50 PM
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with the size of your space, I would be looking at multiple/bigger subs. one 15 probably wont make you happy from any brand...

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #15 of 42 Old 08-15-2017, 02:11 PM
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I eyed the 118ht before deciding DIY was worth the hassle...........I also looked into building a 118ht clone and it comes out close enough that I would have just purchased the 118......


When it comes to subs.....quality subs....bigger is better and more of them is better. If you happen to get more than you need, the upside is reduced strain on them,longer life and reliability....there is really no downside in going bigger or more. From a value/performance aspect.............the wife making you sleep on the couch is a downside but has no bearing on performance or value of the sub.
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http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...i-version.html
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post #16 of 42 Old 08-15-2017, 05:10 PM
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Take out the SVS PB12-Plus for $1400... It really doesn't belong in the list. Also the Hsu VTF-15H MK2 is $1068 shipped. You should always include shipping.

I would lump them like this:

~$1100 subs:
Power Sound Audio V1500 $1,099 USA 5 yr.
HSU VTF-15H MK2 $1,068 China 2 yr. / 7 yr.

~$1400 subs:
Rythmik Audio FV15HP $1,338 China 3 yr. / 5 yr.
PSA V1801 $1,400 USA 5 yrs.
Good point on the shipping.

Why don't you think the SVS should be in that list? Price or performance?

I'm not a subwoofer pro but I know these are well regarded subs and roughly in the same price range.
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post #17 of 42 Old 08-15-2017, 05:27 PM
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Been down the sub rabbit hole for 30 years. Still trying to climb out.
My $.02:
Get the best set of dual (2 x) 12" subs that you can afford. My preference is for HSU, but there are numerous other choices. Dual (or more) subs balance out the room response and will provide 95% of your LFE needs. For the additional 5%, put tactile transducers in the seating (ours are Buttkickers).
HT Bass response problem solved with <$2K investment. Even less if you are handy or buy used.
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post #18 of 42 Old 08-15-2017, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishluck73 View Post
Good point on the shipping.

Why don't you think the SVS should be in that list? Price or performance?

I'm not a subwoofer pro but I know these are well regarded subs and roughly in the same price range.
Both.

@ $1400, the SVS PB12-plus' (12" driver) performance leaves a lot to be desired. Take the Rythmik Audio FV15HP $1338 for example, it is neck to neck with the $2000 SVS PB13-Ultra. The other subs are of newer design and use 15" or even 18" drivers. Since the ID sub industry is very competitive, newer, larger usually means better.
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post #19 of 42 Old 08-15-2017, 10:36 PM
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JTR 118HT if you can accommodate it's size, if not then get the V1801.
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post #20 of 42 Old 08-16-2017, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
JTR 118HT if you can accommodate it's size, if not then get the V1801.
How do the JTR 118HT and 1400 compare to one another performance wise? Is it a huge jump for the $400?

My list is getting longer but I feel more focused. Spending $2k on a sub seems a bit steep to me but I'm willing to pay once, cry once. Rather than wanting more and more... Although that may be inevitable.

Power Sound Audio V1500 $1099 USA 5 yr.
HSU VTF-15H MK2 $1068 China 2 yr./7 yr.

Power Sound Audio V1801 $1400 USA 5 yr.
Rythmik Audio FV15HP $1338 China 2 yr.

Rythmik Audio F25 $1679 China 2 yr.
JTR 118HT $1599 5 yr.
JTR Captivator 1400 $1999 5 yr.

Last edited by irishluck73; 08-16-2017 at 05:45 AM.
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post #21 of 42 Old 08-16-2017, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishluck73 View Post
How do the JTR 118HT and 1400 compare to one another performance wise? Is it a huge jump for the $400?

My list is getting longer but I feel more focused. Spending $2k on a sub seems a bit steep to me but I'm willing to pay once, cry once. Rather than wanting more and more... Although that may be inevitable.

Power Sound Audio V1500 $1099 USA 5 yr.
HSU VTF-15H MK2 $1068 China 2 yr./7 yr.

Power Sound Audio V1801 $1400 USA 5 yr.
Rythmik Audio FV15HP $1338 China 2 yr.

Rythmik Audio F25 $1679 China 2 yr.
JTR 118HT $1599 5 yr.
JTR Captivator 1400 $1999 5 yr.
Heard both the 118ht and the Cap1400 , is there a difference yes , a $400 difference? I think there is more value in the difference between the 1801 to the 118ht...But if you are going the cry now , smile later , the 1400 will do it for you....Just go as big as you can afford!
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post #22 of 42 Old 08-16-2017, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulloutchamp View Post
Heard both the 118ht and the Cap1400 , is there a difference yes , a $400 difference? I think there is more value in the difference between the 1801 to the 118ht...But if you are going the cry now , smile later , the 1400 will do it for you....Just go as big as you can afford!
Thanks for your insight. I was hoping to stay under $1500... For some reason that sounds much more reasonable than $2k. It's not so much "afford" as to how much do I want to invest... My 2 Epik Sentinels (12" ported) just died on me and that's the reason I'm on the hunt.

From my limited research I'm leaning towards either PSA or JTR. Rythmik is really intriguing to me considering Jim Salk uses them for subs and I respect his opinion a lot. My sound system is a Salk SongTower 5 channel.

We just moved into our new house and the floor plan is very open and there's a lot of room to fill. I think I may be upgrading the Salk system as well just wanting more oomph to fill the new place.

Sorry for the thread drift. I did think my line of questions ran with the OP's subject.
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post #23 of 42 Old 08-16-2017, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post

Marc also has 2 Seaton MFW15-SS Turbos for sale. Each of those is equivalent to the top $1000 subs you are considering.
Maybe > than other top $1000 subs. A nicely used pair of these should not be passed over lightly.

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/po...binets-7812317
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post #24 of 42 Old 08-16-2017, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishluck73 View Post
Thanks for your insight. I was hoping to stay under $1500... For some reason that sounds much more reasonable than $2k. It's not so much "afford" as to how much do I want to invest... My 2 Epik Sentinels (12" ported) just died on me and that's the reason I'm on the hunt.

From my limited research I'm leaning towards either PSA or JTR. Rythmik is really intriguing to me considering Jim Salk uses them for subs and I respect his opinion a lot. My sound system is a Salk SongTower 5 channel.

We just moved into our new house and the floor plan is very open and there's a lot of room to fill. I think I may be upgrading the Salk system as well just wanting more oomph to fill the new place.

Sorry for the thread drift. I did think my line of questions ran with the OP's subject.
Hehehehe "Invest" .....Theres no investing in subs , its just lose lose lose lol....but you sound like someone who doesnt catch the upgrade bug and really just want something to last until it dies as you did previously , so it is an investment. Nothing wrong with PSA as I have 2 1801's that I really enjoy , they are super compact which make it really easy to integrate into a living room , although that does hurt their lower end performance which the large box JTR outdoes them...

Sharp Aquos Q+ 70" UQ
Onkyo Tx-nr646
Klipsch RP-280F (F/R towers) RP-250C (Center)
Polk Towers (rear surround)
SVS Elevations (Front Height)
2 PSA V1801 1 PSA V1500 Xbox1
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post #25 of 42 Old 08-16-2017, 10:03 AM
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Hehehehe "Invest" .....Theres no investing in subs , its just lose lose lose lol....but you sound like someone who doesnt catch the upgrade bug and really just want something to last until it dies as you did previously , so it is an investment. Nothing wrong with PSA as I have 2 1801's that I really enjoy , they are super compact which make it really easy to integrate into a living room , although that does hurt their lower end performance which the large box JTR outdoes them...
I scoured AVS for a long time before punching the button on my current setup and made a conscious decision not to come back on or I'd have upgraded several times in the past couple of years...

I am looking for a solid subwoofer that'll be good to go for at least a couple of years. 2 would be more fun but the wife has asked me to just buy one this time around. In a few months who knows what'll show up on the doorstep...

The 118HT/Cap 1400 has same width and depth dimensions as the PSA 1801 and is only 6" taller.
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post #26 of 42 Old 08-16-2017, 11:14 AM
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I really love my 15V. Had a song playing in the basement and my car keys started rattling on the upstairs dining table. Such a powerful sub. With your space though, depending on what you want to experience, multiple 15" is probably in order. My room is 2,200 cubic feet and the 15V is not even close to reaching it's maximum output. I have the gain set at 9 o clock and Audyssey set it at -10, so I'm in a nice sweet spot for headroom. And you can't go wrong with PSA. Tom is beyond helpful.
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post #27 of 42 Old 08-16-2017, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishluck73 View Post
How do the JTR 118HT and 1400 compare to one another performance wise? Is it a huge jump for the $400?

My list is getting longer but I feel more focused. Spending $2k on a sub seems a bit steep to me but I'm willing to pay once, cry once. Rather than wanting more and more... Although that may be inevitable.

JTR 118HT $1599 5 yr.
JTR Captivator 1400 $1999 5 yr.
Keep in mind that the JTR prices do not include shipping. Shipping to SoCal is $150 for the Cap 118HT and $180ish for the Cap 1400.

The Cap 1400 uses a beefier driver and has double the power vs the Cap 118HT. The cabinet is almost the same.

This is what one owner saw when he visited JTR:



Guess I don't have to tell you which one he took home...

Actually, he ended up with this:

In terms of performance the following is the output comparison between the 2015 Cap 1400 and 2017 Cap 118HT:



The table shows that from 16 to 50 Hz, the 2015 Cap 1400 has 53% to 92% more output... That is huge for $400... The Cap 1400 will give you much more headroom.

Jeff @ JTR said that the 2017 Cap 1400 increased output by over 1db on the bottom end, so the difference is even greater.

If you are a 'pay once, cry once' person, you should go with the JTR Cap 1400 and don't look back.

I paid once and have been smiling since...

Panasonic TC-P55UT50
Pioneer SC-1222-K
Polk Audio LSiM703 / LSiM706c / RTiA3
JTR Captivator 1400
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post #28 of 42 Old 08-16-2017, 11:49 AM
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I suggest you do alot of research cause returning any of these subs will eat away some time/money if not happy. everyone likes JTR if you can handle the size/price. seem to be best for output.

rythmik has new 18in ported sub and dual 15in ported monster which I own(fv25hp). the fv25hp is 2500 dollars tho....but sounds great imo and hits hard/low.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #29 of 42 Old 08-16-2017, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Keep in mind that the JTR prices do not include shipping. Shipping to SoCal is $150 for the Cap 118HT and $180ish for the Cap 1400.

The Cap 1400 uses a beefier driver and has double the power vs the Cap 118HT. The cabinet is almost the same.

This is what one owner saw when he visited JTR:



Guess I don't have to tell you which one he took home...

In terms of performance the following is the output comparison between the 2015 Cap 1400 and 2017 Cap 118HT:



The table shows that from 16 to 50 Hz, the 2015 Cap 1400 has 53% to 92% more output... That is huge for $400... The Cap 1400 will give you much more headroom.

Jeff @ JTR said that the 2017 Cap 1400 increased output by over 1db on the bottom end, so the difference is even greater.

If you are a 'pay once, cry once' person, you should go with the JTR Cap 1400 and don't look back.

I paid once and have been smiling since...
Thank you again. Great info.

For the price I'm wondering how a PSA V3601 would compare to the Cap 1400?

Also, any other subs in this price range I should be considering or would that muddy the water even more?

Coincidentally, my best friend lives in the neighborhood at the top of Day Creek.
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post #30 of 42 Old 08-16-2017, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishluck73 View Post
Thank you again. Great info.

For the price I'm wondering how a PSA V3601 would compare to the Cap 1400?

Also, any other subs in this price range I should be considering or would that muddy the water even more?

Coincidentally, my best friend lives in the neighborhood at the top of Day Creek.
I haven't auditioned the PSA V3601, but I know if the PSA V3601 is as "close to" the JTR Cap 1400 as the PSA V1801 is to the Cap 118HT, I would pick the JTR Cap 1400.

The neighborhood at the top of Day Creek is awesome.

If you live close to your best friend, you are more than welcome to come check out my JTR Cap 1400.
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Pioneer SC-1222-K
Polk Audio LSiM703 / LSiM706c / RTiA3
JTR Captivator 1400
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