Official Seaton Sound Subwoofer Thread - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 66 Old 08-15-2017, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Official Seaton Sound Subwoofer Thread

http://seatonsound.net/

By Mark Seaton

F18
SubMersive in several options
Terraform XL - possibly not in production anylonger... but would be a formidable adversary

Providing the awesome option of master(amp)-slave

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post #2 of 66 Old 08-15-2017, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Reserved for @Marc Alexander
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post #3 of 66 Old 08-15-2017, 01:28 PM
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Just saying, you about these threads right?
Seaton Sound SubMersive1
**The Official Seaton Sound Speaker Thread**
If you did, then linking these again won't hurt .
I hope Mark puts some content on that .net address.

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post #4 of 66 Old 08-16-2017, 03:45 PM
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I think this is a good idea, starting a new, consolidated Official Seaton Sound Subwoofer thread. It was done with JTR and @cannga has done great job keeping the opening posts up to date.

I'm guessing that @bulls wants me to be "that guy" by reserving post #2 for me (he is a busy guy).

BTW it is @Mark Seaton with a K, not to be confused with Marc Alexander with a C.

AVS threads:

Seaton Sound Submersive1

Seaton MFW-15 Turbo SS


Seaton F18+ Subwoofers, Axpona 2017http://www.seatonsound.net/mark/HT-S...18-4prep-5.jpg

Seaton Sound Forum threads (ordering/product info):

Product Listing, Availability, Status and Pricing

New F18 SubWoofer F18+ & F18

Blemishes, B-Stock, Blowouts and Specials

Finish Options - a Collection of Photos

Speakerpower amplifier guide/info
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post #5 of 66 Old 08-16-2017, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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corrected, thanks Marc with a c

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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post
Just saying, you about these threads right?
this thread is general for the Seaton subwoofers, there's a separate Speaker thread as you mention, ... just like other companies have separate threads
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post #6 of 66 Old 08-17-2017, 05:19 PM
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I am getting ready for delivery of my Lyngdorf MP-50 processor (any day now). I have changed the orientation of my front F18s to eliminate SBIR. This also allowed me to pull my rack out 5" for wiring access and aligning CC with main L/R.

The black oak does not appear that much different than black maple… until the light hits it just right!
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post #7 of 66 Old 08-17-2017, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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is your response response better with them facing sideways?
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post #8 of 66 Old 08-17-2017, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bulls View Post
is your response response better with them facing sideways?
It should be. I haven't measured yet. When I measured previously with PSA S1500s the difference was above my front crossover frequency of 60Hz. I am going to be sealing the ports of my Mirage OMD-28 mains and experimenting with higher crossovers (between 90-150Hz). This is in an attempt to take advantage of the frequency range of the F18s and nearfield MBMs, the advanced bass management capabilities of the Lyngdorf as well as its voicing tool.

If you are not familiar with Speaker-Boundary Interference Reflections checkout this link: http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speak...-interference/

These considerations apply mainly to main L/R speakers and front subwoofers but it can affect any placement near a wall (nearfield not so much, you will want the driver as close to the MLP as possible). I usually rotate subs ±90° to see what affects it has.

Josh Ricci of data-bass.com has been known to face drivers directly into walls or corners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci
I wouldn't say that I swear by it, but I usually do place them this way in most cases. What it does help with is smoothing the bass in the crossover region and the upper bass range. >70Hz. Works more effectively with bigger cabinets. Typically helps fill in one or two dips related to reflections from the driver to the walls and back to the driver position by placing the driver in much closer proximity to the boundaries so that this is pushed up much higher in frequency completely out of the bass bandwidth. Technically it may also help lower distortion a tiny amount as well.
IME, most often the effects of small boundary distance differences are negligible and aesthetics win out.
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post #9 of 66 Old 08-18-2017, 09:11 AM
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Great idea, as there are so many more Seaton Sound subwoofer products than the Submersive. I'm a long-term Seaton Sound customer, owning multiples of Submersive HPs, F2s, and currently, eight F18s. Love these products--throwing up some photos below!







Attached Images
File Type: jpg Front Subs-L.jpg (62.3 KB, 434 views)
File Type: jpg Sub Preview.JPG (99.9 KB, 436 views)
File Type: jpg Rear Subs.jpg (132.8 KB, 434 views)
File Type: jpg Front Subs-R.jpg (61.4 KB, 433 views)

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post #10 of 66 Old 08-18-2017, 09:20 AM
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Very nice @BrolicBeast ! Are you using the rack amplifier and all passive/slave F18s?
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post #11 of 66 Old 08-18-2017, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Very nice @BrolicBeast ! Are you using the rack amplifier and all passive/slave F18s?
Thanks! Yes indeed!!! Rack amp w/ 8000w of power, with all F18 models passive. What a dream to tweak (in if ever needed, service) the subs from a single location. Shots below:



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post #12 of 66 Old 08-18-2017, 10:18 AM
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IMO, the F18+ system is the most flexible subwoofer system ever conceived. The active/passive configurations, the vertical stackability, the compact form factor… I almost forgot about the Designer Series.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Hi bscool,

Quickly following up, the subs you were asking about are these new models from the Designer Series as I described above. The DS18-12 is 30" x 26" x 12.5" deep, while the DS18-20 is 20" x 20" x 23.5" deep. The DS18-20 can also be loaded as a powered + unit, but most often we expect they will be powered externally. For most of our customers here I would recommend sticking with the F18 design unless these dimensions are very beneficial. While we will offer these direct, they were conceived with system designers, installers, and integrators in mind. We run these in much smaller batches and largely per order. They will be a bit higher cost and priced with shipping included and magnetic grills optional. Art Sonneborn received the first of the DS18-20 units as seen in the link above, while the first pair of DS18-12 units are headed to the "LOGE" theater for AVS member Lasalle which is currently in construction. The whole point here is for these units to allow this level of performance to fit in places most substantial subs might not. This is a product line that will expand significantly over the coming year, including some options intended to only be used with or in unique ways with the latest high performance surround processors such as Trinnov's Altitude models and DataSat's RS20i.

While I know it's popular and fun to lust and banter over the biggest, baddest, and most obscenely sized boxes available, the right location with a very good sub almost always sounds and performs better than a big brute in the wrong place. Fitting in the right locations to help awesome projects like Art Sonneborn's room sound even better is exactly why I've worked up products like these.







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post #13 of 66 Old 08-18-2017, 10:57 AM
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Great thread!

Question for everyone since I haven't been able to find the info on my own. I know Seaton isn't about dB racing, but does anyone have an estimate of the CEA-2010 performance of the F18? Or some other way to gauge its performance in a large room?

I have a large room at ~5000 cu ft and love what everyone says about Seaton SQ, as well as what I see in the fit and finish. The issue is I could really only get one master/slave pair, and I'm not sure it would be enough output.

Thanks!


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post #14 of 66 Old 08-18-2017, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Great thread!

Question for everyone since I haven't been able to find the info on my own. I know Seaton isn't about dB racing, but does anyone have an estimate of the CEA-2010 performance of the F18? Or some other way to gauge its performance in a large room?

I have a large room at ~5000 cu ft and love what everyone says about Seaton SQ, as well as what I see in the fit and finish. The issue is I could really only get one master/slave pair, and I'm not sure it would be enough output.

Thanks!


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Marc measured the F18 at his GTG but I think his below 20hz # are a little low. Using Data-bass the Epik is similar in output(little less from 40-60hz and more output above that) compared to the Submersive and you can see the UM18 against it. So another take on how they compare.

I know Marc A and Mark S have said the F18 has more output than the UM18 but looking at the Data-bass numbers I don't see it when compared to Marcs measurements. Maybe I am missing something. I know Ricci used a much more powerful amp than the F18 uses.

So if you want to compare how the F18 compares to other subs on Data-bass I would use the Um18 but take off some up in the higher FR for the higher amplifier power Rikki used. Like compare the UM18 to the Cap 2 on Databass and add 6dB for 2 F18 against the Cap2 to make it equal. Not perfect but gives you a rough estimate and a visual to make it easier to see and compare.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Marcs.jpg (95.2 KB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg Data-bass.jpg (111.9 KB, 46 views)
File Type: jpg UM18 vs Cap2.jpg (109.3 KB, 40 views)
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HTPC, Sony 40es, 120" Silver Ticket, 7702mkii, Sunfire Amp 225w, JBL 590, JBL 520

PSA XS30, Seaton Submersive, 2 Um-18 8cf sealed, Outlaw Ultra x 12, Kappa Pro 18LF, BFM Tuba 60 horn, B&C 18TBW100 6cf 41hz, 34hz, 28hz tune

iNuke 3000 & 6000 DSP's, Crowson Motion Actuator

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post #15 of 66 Old 08-18-2017, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
Marc measured the F18 at his GTG but I think his below 20hz # are a little low. Using Data-bass the Epik is similar in output(little less from 40-60hz and more output above that) compared to the Submersive and you can see the UM18 against it. So another take on how they compare.
The response shape, behavior beyond CEA limits, and distortion characteristics make the F18 and Empire extremely different performers which would sound drastically different and subjectively have very different maximum capabilities.

Quote:
I know Marc A and Mark S have said the F18 has more output than the UM18 but looking at the Data-bass numbers I don't see it when compared to Marcs measurements. Maybe I am missing something. I know Ricci used a much more powerful amp than the F18 uses.
The amplifier in the F18 delivers more than the 89V RMS used in the long term compression sweeps. Unfortunately environmental conditions mean most any of these measurements will have 1-2dB of variation either way simply testing on different days and especially depending on temperature and how long a black box has been baking in the sun. I am thinking it would make sense to spray test units white to make thing easier for who ever is running the test. While measurements taken at one location and the same time can often be very useful for direct comparison, holding tight enough tolerance to compare to other testers across the country requires a much higher level of precision and calibration in gear.

Based on the testing I have done, we get a smidge more in some ranges, and a bit less in others as I don't allow the driver to go into harsh overload, and above 40Hz we aren't dumping 200-450V into the driver, which you can't easily do in real use anyway. One data point which correlates very well with my own measurements is the very low distortion above 30-35Hz as see in the Data-Bass Total Harmonic Distortion measurements. If you look at the chart listing out CEA maximums, the drivers we use will not run into the mechanical noise limit Josh noted on the 31.5Hz & 40Hz burst testing. A soft limit there vs a hard, offensive one makes for quite the subjective difference in listening.

Quote:
So if you want to compare how the F18 compares to other subs on Data-bass I would use the Um18 but take off some up in the higher FR for the higher amplifier power Rikki used. Like compare the UM18 to the Cap 2 on Databass and add 6dB for 2 F18 against the Cap2 to make it equal. Not perfect but gives you a rough estimate and a visual to make it easier to see and compare.
Generally agree here if you're looking primarily at CEA maximums.

I know this summer Josh has had limited time to test subs, and I have been talking with one industry acquaintance who might be up for performing such testing as an independent lab for hire. Since acoustic measurement and design is his livelihood it can't be free or such low cost testing as Data-Bass has done, but he might have a longer test window through the year than Josh's latitude dictates and could possibly get to products much more quickly.
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post #16 of 66 Old 08-18-2017, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
Marc measured the F18 at his GTG but I think his below 20hz # are a little low.
While the Dayton UMM-6 microphone had the measurement headroom I was looking for, it has some extreme rolloff starting just above 20Hz. While the CSL calibration curve corrects down to 5Hz it also raises the noise floor and added an element of innacuracy to my measurments. That needs to taken in consideration for the ≤20Hz measurements as I don't believe a simple correction curve could be simply applied to the results. The lower the frequency (≤20Hz) and the lower the SPL level the more innaccurate the CEA-2010 result. I do believe ≥25Hz to be fairly accurate. Environmental and other factors still could lead to measurement variabilities.
Quote:
I know Marc A and Mark S have said the F18 has more output than the UM18 but looking at the Data-bass numbers I don't see it when compared to Marcs measurements. Maybe I am missing something.
I may have mis-conveyed what Mark has said on this subject. Seaton Sound has stringent requirements on the driver parameters than if you were to buy off-the-shelf for DIY. They also touch up some details to maximize longevity and reliability. The mitigation of driver-to-driver and batch-to-batch variabilities as well as the DSP tuning should account for more clean output capability vs an off-the-shelf driver/DIY system.

In the future I plan to test a F18 vs a DIY UM-18 (running a 2400W Speakerpower amp from Mark's B-stock, which utilizes an older DSP which does not allow for all of the tweaks made for the F18+).
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post #17 of 66 Old 08-18-2017, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Great thread!

Question for everyone since I haven't been able to find the info on my own. I know Seaton isn't about dB racing, but does anyone have an estimate of the CEA-2010 performance of the F18? Or some other way to gauge its performance in a large room?

I have a large room at ~5000 cu ft and love what everyone says about Seaton SQ, as well as what I see in the fit and finish. The issue is I could really only get one master/slave pair, and I'm not sure it would be enough output.

Thanks!


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When we did the Spring SoCal Subwoofer GTG (a task I still need to complete), the area was about 7500ft³. Surprisingly, the ported Rythmik FV18 and JTR Captivator 118HT filled the space at and slightly above reference which I did not anticipate a single sub would do. We compared a stack of two F18s which was the majority favorite. @Pulloutchamp likened it to "listening to bass in a vacuum".

I don't know what your preferences and goals for the room are. I do believe that two F18s in your room would be similar to @indebtbassfreak 's dual JTR S1s in his room (which disturbs the block). For me, 2 would be my starter pack with a goal of eventually having 4 or even 6 (two stacks of 3).

What subs have you had in the space and what are your impressions? What are your visions for an upgrade?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I am getting ready for delivery of my Lyngdorf MP-50 processor (any day now). I have changed the orientation of my front F18s to eliminate SBIR. This also allowed me to pull my rack out 5" for wiring access and aligning CC with main L/R.

The black oak does not appear that much different than black maple… until the light hits it just right!
Nice looking mains, what are they?
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Nice looking mains, what are they?
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Thanks! Mirage OMD-28s.
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post #20 of 66 Old 08-19-2017, 01:03 AM
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Official Seaton Sound Subwoofer Thread

@bscool - Thanks for all the info, very helpful!

@Mark Seaton - Thanks for the additional commentary, much appreciated!

@Marc Alexander - Thanks for performing and posting all those tests. I read through that GTG thread and it was super helpful in regards to the three main ported subs I was considering.

Right now I have dual PSA XV15se's and they sound pretty stellar IMHO. Originally I had envisioned going for the most TR I could get (JTR Cap), but then I saw the "bass vacuum" comments and figured I better at least investigate this option.



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post #21 of 66 Old 08-19-2017, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
When we did the Spring SoCal Subwoofer GTG (a task I still need to complete), the area was about 7500ft³. Surprisingly, the ported Rythmik FV18 and JTR Captivator 118HT filled the space at and slightly above reference which I did not anticipate a single sub would do. We compared a stack of two F18s which was the majority favorite. @Pulloutchamp likened it to "listening to bass in a vacuum".

I don't know what your preferences and goals for the room are. I do believe that two F18s in your room would be similar to @indebtbassfreak 's dual JTR S1s in his room (which disturbs the block). For me, 2 would be my starter pack with a goal of eventually having 4 or even 6 (two stacks of 3).

What subs have you had in the space and what are your impressions? What are your visions for an upgrade?
I think Mark has mentioned before that two F18s would be a nice upgrade from a single Submersive, but deliver less than two Submersives.

So they would rank as follows:

Single F18 -> Single Submersive -> Dual F18s -> Dual Submersives -> Quad F18s.

As far as a single S1 versus a single F18, the S1 has a more powerful/higher extension driver with 2400W versus the UM18-22 with 1300W, I would expect the S1 to deliver more.
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post #22 of 66 Old 08-19-2017, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post
Thanks! Yes indeed!!! Rack amp w/ 8000w of power, with all F18 models passive. What a dream to tweak (in if ever needed, service) the subs from a single location. Shots below:



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Awesome. I guess next step is double what you have to 16? Or take a break at 12? Two questions for you, looking at the wiring does one channel use a daisy chain connector per pair where as the other channel uses four independent runs? And what kind of power cord does it use, for the input to the amp and receptacle end? Thanks.
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post #23 of 66 Old 08-19-2017, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
I think Mark has mentioned before that two F18s would be a nice upgrade from a single Submersive, but deliver less than two Submersives.

So they would rank as follows:

Single F18 -> Single Submersive -> Dual F18s -> Dual Submersives -> Quad F18s.

As far as a single S1 versus a single F18, the S1 has a more powerful/higher extension driver with 2400W versus the UM18-22 with 1300W, I would expect the S1 to deliver more.
While I don't disagree with your ranking of F18+ vs Submersive, I don't think that is the right approach to system design. The chart I produced should accuractly depict the deltas. The Submersive has the edge above 40Hz and the F18+ below 30Hz. This makes the F18s more suitable for larger rooms with less cabin vessel gain.

I also think the F18+ and S1 are far closer than you are implying @Pradeep2 . The JTR S1 should be 5-6dB below the S2. You are referencing amplifier power but not driver sensitivity. The F18+ utilizes a larger cabinet (23.5x23.5x18 in) than the S1 (21x21x18 in). JTR is likely using linkwitz transform similarly to Deep Sea Sound (also 21x21x18 in).

I believe the S1 does have a small edge in output over the F18, with the Mariana 18 likely edging both. But how significantly? DSS will build the Mariana in a Master/Slave alignment or utilizing rack amps. None have the flexibility of the F18+ system when you consider the plate amps are able to drive up to 4 F18s.

My previous setup featured two PSA S3000s and two S1500s. I wanted more output and less distortion below 30Hz. In my case the F18+, JTR S2, DSS M18 or ported 18s were my best options. Not Submersives, which are similar to the PSA S3000s but with lower distortion. The PSA 1801s were not a viable option with a depth of 22" (vs 18" for the SS, JTR, and DSS) and no wood veneers offered. I also don't believe they are in the same league as the others from a performance standpoint.

The flexibility of the F18+ system may cause you to go over budget. Upgrading from 2 to 3 or 4 is so easy and cost effective most owners I have come across have at least 3 F18s. I was going to start with two and maybe add two later (my room is only 2775ft³). I ordered the second two the day after I heard my first pair! [And I had heard the ported 18s]
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post #24 of 66 Old 08-19-2017, 12:26 PM
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How would you compare the 2 F18s to the dual 3000s and dual S1500s?
I would agreed four F18s are very potent, I was just tempering expectations of two in the space of the OP.
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post #25 of 66 Old 08-19-2017, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
How would you compare the 2 F18s to the dual 3000s and dual S1500s?
I would agreed four F18s are very potent, I was just tempering expectations of two in the space of the OP.
Marc tested both the s3000i & Submersive HP and output is pretty close. But SQ and other factors differed. So basing it solely on output the Submersive and 3000i are very close. But I know from having the lowest level 1000watt Submersive and also an XS30 that they sound quite different in actual listening experience and the Submersive has more tactile feel. In my opinion, it is worth the extra $$ for even the lowest level Submersive at $1600 or around $1700 shipped. https://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/p...r-hpf2-8469008
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post #26 of 66 Old 08-19-2017, 04:28 PM
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Yes the Submersive is excellent value when paired with a slave cabinet.

I was curious if Marc was comparing the dual F18s to the four PSA subs together.
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post #27 of 66 Old 08-19-2017, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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i pointed the f18s into the couch sides like 2 inch from sides. the TR is pretty exciting, and it was way loud i couldnt tell much with all the _Detailed_ sensory overload.. i havent done any measurements yet... but i was wondering at what distance does the sound get compromised ?
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post #28 of 66 Old 08-21-2017, 07:23 PM
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Awesome. I guess next step is double what you have to 16? Or take a break at 12? Two questions for you, looking at the wiring does one channel use a daisy chain connector per pair where as the other channel uses four independent runs? And what kind of power cord does it use, for the input to the amp and receptacle end? Thanks.
Lolol....this state would develop a fault line off I doubled the count! The wiring is all speakon. At the sub end, I used 10 gauge wire with one speakon per sub on the front wall, and 12 gauge 4 conductor wire with one speakon per pair, daisy chaining using the slave plate input on each rear 2nd sub. At the Amp end, it's all banana plugs, so I combined the wire into banana plugs were appropriate and Let er Rip.

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post #29 of 66 Old 08-21-2017, 07:32 PM
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Thanks for the info BrolicBeast.

Got the power cord info when I was talking to Brian about ordering one, L6-20P on the plug end, will prob just convert a dedicated branch circuit from 120v 20A to 240v 20A.
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post #30 of 66 Old 08-21-2017, 08:38 PM
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Thanks for the info BrolicBeast.

Got the power cord info when I was talking to Brian about ordering one, L6-20P on the plug end, will prob just convert a dedicated branch circuit from 120v 20A to 240v 20A.
Oh? Mine is a standard IEC power cord, I believe.

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