PSA S7201 Competitors? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 31 Old 08-22-2017, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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PSA S7201 Competitors?

What other sealed subs are in the same performance bracket?

Is this the type of sealed sub that we can do an apples to apples comparison vs. a vented sub?
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post #2 of 31 Old 08-22-2017, 08:16 AM
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Let me tell you......none.


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post #3 of 31 Old 08-22-2017, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animeking View Post
What other sealed subs are in the same performance bracket?

Is this the type of sealed sub that we can do an apples to apples comparison vs. a vented sub?
Before I say anything, let me preface my statements with, "It's just still too damn early to tell."

That said, considering exclusively output/SPL and in "just one box" attributes, the only other sealed system that comes close to the realm of output is the JTR Captivator S2. This is correlating the rough estimate of dual S3601 mutually-coupled data here. If you want to consider stacks or multiples, the Seaton F18 slave/master systems would be in the similar output range. Other than that, only the crazy DIYers would have something of a competitive caliber. (I mean that in the nicest way possible!!!) I wanted to add that the Deep Sea Sound 24" as well might hang with this, too.

I do not think you could compare this against a big ported box of similar size - the ported option will still have more output <25-30Hz or so and could even do it in a smaller box with less power. (think along the lines of JTR Captivator 4000-ULF) Also, IMHO, you just can never really compare ported and sealed designs as there are always going to be trade-offs.

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post #4 of 31 Old 08-22-2017, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animeking View Post
What other sealed subs are in the same performance bracket?

Is this the type of sealed sub that we can do an apples to apples comparison vs. a vented sub?
+1 to the post above.

If you have a $3000+ subwoofer budget, you would more likely be more satisfied on paper with two lesser subs smoothing out nulls in the response. I say on paper because nothing really beats that wow factor the 7201 brings. This is 4 drivers in one huge cab, rather than 4 drivers each in their own smaller cabs.

You're also talking about a 300 lb. cab. It's also much easier to move multiple cabs weighting less than half that. I am also on a 2nd floor, so moving it upstairs and fighting the railings/banister stuff on the side is a huge challenge even with several people.

I'm not trying to take anything away from the 7201. It's really jaw dropping to think this is how far commercial subs have come along - for home use. This is the Dodge Demon, Nissian GTR, Ford F-650, etc. of subs (and the Mach 5 32" sub ). They're not for everyone, but everyone will stare.

I'm honestly looking forward to seeing pics of these as people order them. A big congrats to PSA for pushing the envelope.

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post #5 of 31 Old 08-22-2017, 11:37 AM
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The following is what I could find about the push pull design:

*************************

Push Pull Basic Theory

"Two drivers share an acoustic volume of air within a single enclosure. The best way to take advantage of this alignment is to mount one driver facing outwards with the other driver inverted and facing inwards. The drivers are then wired so that they are electrically out of phase while remaining mechanically still in phase with one another.

Odd ordered harmonics are cancelled out by using this approach according to Vance Dickason. According to M&K who specialize is push/pull subwoofers claim that this approach cancels out even ordered harmonics. So take your pick. Either way, harmonic distortion is reduced in that any anomalies or variations in the two driver's spider, cone or suspension characteristics are canceled out by the other driver's inversely proportional anomalies and variations.

The sound is as accurate and pure as it can possibly be with each driver "correcting" the other driver. Of course many times two drivers will share the same acoustic volume of air while maintaining the more traditional look of having both drivers fire forward into the listening environment. Though this does not have the same harmonic cancellation effect, all other characteristics between the two alignments is identical. Box volume must be twice that of a single driver. This can be easily modeled by taking the Vas of a single driver and multiplying it by two. The system has an increased efficiency of 6dB over a single driver. Power handling for the system is twice that of single driver. Frequency response is the same for a single driver in an enclosure excaly half the size.

Advantages

Increased output and power handling. Very high SPL capability.

Disadvantages

One single huge speaker enclosure that may be both unattractive and hard to move. Response it essentially identical to building two smaller enclosures of exactly half the size but without the versatility of placement of two separate subs. If one of the drivers blows due to too much power, the whole speaker will no longer perform because the blown driver will begin to act like a passive radiator. If your enclosure is already ported, then this will only cause more problems. If it is sealed, then bass response will be reduced dramatically. There are no real disadvantages to building this kind of enclosure as the speakers will behave just as they would in enclosures by themselves. It's very common to make MMT style speakers and use the two drivers in the same enclosure.

Best Applications

Where one sub just isn't enough. High power high output applications. If you choose to do the push/pull configuration, the sonic advantage may make this sub more suitable for audiophile music and critical listening experiences..."

********************

The push-pull design is intended to reduce harmonic distortion created by the drivers themselves, and if your using incredibly low distortion high quality drivers anyway, with a design that doesn't push them that hard, then the difficulties in constructing push pull may be unnecessary.

********************

So what do you guys think?

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post #6 of 31 Old 08-22-2017, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Can one run two 7201's?
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post #7 of 31 Old 08-22-2017, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animeking View Post
Can one run two 7201's?
You can run as many as you want if your circuit breakers can handle them...

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post #8 of 31 Old 08-22-2017, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by animeking View Post
Can one run two 7201's?
One may run from two 7201s

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post #9 of 31 Old 08-22-2017, 03:27 PM
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I'd venture the Deep Sea Sound Mariana 24 is right up there. Another thread mentioned the Cap S2. Who really knows at this point.

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post #10 of 31 Old 08-22-2017, 03:32 PM
 
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Once they get independently tested, then we will have a better idea of who the competition is.
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post #11 of 31 Old 08-22-2017, 03:43 PM
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no idea on what this beast psa has unleashed. time will tell. when it comes to ported vs sealed, rythmik has a very sealed sound imo in their ported designs. one of the reasons i went with rythmik. now I doubt rythmik has anything that can compete with 4x18in drivers...yet anyways, bar always moving.

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post #12 of 31 Old 08-22-2017, 06:19 PM
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IMHO, and true we are all guessing, until formal measurement: Restricting to sealed comparison, any combination of sealed subwoofs with same number of drivers & similar power would have the potential to match or come close to it: 4 Seaton/Deep Sea 18"'s, two PSA S3601's, two JTR S2's.

Packing four drivers into one cabinet saves money (to me, the main advantage), but detracts from smooth room response. I would vote for 2 PSA 3601's over one 7201, 4 PSA 3601's over two 7201's, etc., even though cost is higher. 7201 is admirable effort, but size would interfere with usefulness and response smoothness.

Lastly, any combination of sealed with same number of drivers, but with higher Xmax/motor strength (probably JTR S1/S2 and Deep Sea, guessing from picture of 7201 driver), would have the potential to beat 7201 in ultra deep bass output.
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post #13 of 31 Old 08-22-2017, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
IMHO and true we are all guessing, until formal measurement: Any combination of sealed subwoofs with same number of drivers & similar power would have the potential to match or come close to it: 4 Seaton/Deep Sea 18"'s, two PSA S3601's, two JTR S2's.

Packing four drivers into one cabinet saves money, but detracts from B]smooth room response[/B]. I would vote for 2 PSA 3601's over one 7201, 4 PSA 3601's over two 7201's, etc., even though cost is higher. 7201 is admirable effort, but size would interfere with usefulness and response smoothness.

Lastly, any combination of sealed with same number of drivers, but with higher Xmax (probably JTR and Deep Sea, judging from picture), would have the potential to beat 7201 in deep bass.

I'm not sure if we know the exact specs of the driver PSA is using. But certainly it doesn't seem to be in the very large displacement category (33mm xmax for the JTR drivers and 38mm for the Stereo Integrity HST18v2 drivers in the Deep Sea Sounds 18s). The UM18-22 is officially 22mm but real life seems to exceed that by a little. Then with the S2 using 2kw per driver versus the S7201 with 1kw per driver, and the DSS 18s using about 3kw of the 4kw Speakerpower plate amp on a single driver - you could get a master plus slave pair of DSS18s with a 6kw amp running on 240V for around 4k.

The other unknown apart from the drivers/power used is whether the alignment used by the S7201 provides something special that isn't directly related to raw output.

Agreeing with you that dual S3601s would deliver better envelopment than a single S7201.
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post #14 of 31 Old 08-22-2017, 11:16 PM
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1 F18 Master and 2 Slaves is about the same price. A SubMersive Master and Slave is also about the same price, with the same dual opposed benefit. The nice thing about the Seaton options is that you can carry them one at a time and then stack them, or not, at your option. Who knows how they actually compare until they all get measured.

All that said, the PSA offering is pretty damn cool.
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post #15 of 31 Old 08-23-2017, 09:33 AM
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Comparisons are very challenging in the realm of audio. There are so many points of view with which to consider when comparisons are made. Aesthetics, price, performance, quality, value, sheer SPL, distortion, size, sound signature, etc. With so many different focuses that we can use to compare different subwoofers, subjectivity becomes a very real determining factor.

Most people (in my opinion) want high SPL with the smallest size, best appearance, and lowest distortion for the least amount of money. Therein lies the dilemma. Which one do we focus on? Here at AVS, most of us are, or should be, members of bassaholics anonymous. We have a very different perspective through which we view subwoofers and audio in general. Whenever the conversation or debate mentions multiple drivers, thousands of watts of power, thousands of dollars, and insane amounts of SPL, I think we are talking about a whole different ballgame.

Mentioning subs like the JTR Growler and 4000 ULF, stacks of Seaton F18+ subs, Funk Audio 21.0LX, Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer, Paradigm Sub2, and many others just proves that there are so many high quality, powerful subwoofers on the market that just weren't there 15 years ago.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the objective comparison of each sub in relation to other subwoofers, regardless of price, is a way for us to weigh the pros and cons of each. Some buyers wouldn't think twice about throwing their credit card down for dual Thor's Hammer subs. I get light-headed just thinking about it. In the end I think that considering every pro and con, comparing the data and subjective impressions, and then ranking subs in those different areas is a good way forward. Which one is best? That may be a different answer for the majority.

All I have to say is, Subwoofers to your marks, set, GO! I love this hobby.

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Performance wise , I dont know...What I do like about it is the sort of "out of the box" type thinking with its visual design..There may have been something like this before , I dont know , again im rather new to all of this but I think there will probably be some other subs coming out that break the mold of what your typical sub should be...Performance and demand will ultimately dictate its success and others willing to try something somewhat different...It may not be everyones cup of tea , but definitely a conversation piece...
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post #17 of 31 Old 08-23-2017, 09:59 AM
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Performance wise , I dont know...What I do like about it is the sort of "out of the box" type thinking with its visual design..There may have been something like this before , I dont know , again im rather new to all of this but I think there will probably be some other subs coming out that break the mold of what your typical sub should be...Performance and demand will ultimately dictate its success and others willing to try something somewhat different...It may not be everyones cup of tea , but definitely a conversation piece...
Very good point. Most of the time, I want a subwoofer that is completely invisible both visually and audibly. Pure bass reproduction without knowing there is a subwoofer present. Other times, when a buddy comes over, the sheer wow factor and subsequent conversations are also a very real part of loving what we do.
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post #18 of 31 Old 08-23-2017, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
Very good point. Most of the time, I want a subwoofer that is completely invisible both visually and audibly. Pure bass reproduction without knowing there is a subwoofer present. Other times, when a buddy comes over, the sheer wow factor and subsequent conversations are also a very real part of loving what we do.
I used to get the same things with the SVS Cylinders , even if they hated it and thought what a waste of space (actually that can happen with any sub and a person who isnt into subs/speakers) we were still having a conversation , and me explaining why it makes ME happy...You can Fuggg off and do what you want in your home , this 300lb waste of space will bring me more joy than you ever will lol.... I get a bit irritated when people question my money expenditures
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post #19 of 31 Old 08-23-2017, 10:11 AM
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I used to get the same things with the SVS Cylinders , even if they hated it and thought what a waste of space (actually that can happen with any sub and a person who isnt into subs/speakers) we were still having a conversation , and me explaining why it makes ME happy...You can Fuggg off and do what you want in your home , this 300lb waste of space will bring me more joy than you ever will lol.... I get a bit irritated when people question my money expenditures
Or when they say, "That's too much bass" even before they've heard it, but they go the IMAX and rave about it!
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post #20 of 31 Old 08-23-2017, 10:42 AM
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Or when they say, "That's too much bass" even before they've heard it, but they go the IMAX and rave about it!
that would be my mother....Although she doesnt go to IMAX , everything is too much bass lol...
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post #21 of 31 Old 08-23-2017, 10:47 AM
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that would be my mother....Although she doesnt go to IMAX , everything is too much bass lol...


I just hear my wife saying that she is waiting for the sheet rock to crack and the roof collapsing.

Everyone else that visits and listens to the system just hold on real tight to their chairs...


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post #22 of 31 Old 08-23-2017, 11:13 AM
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I just hear my wife saying that she is waiting for the sheet rock to crack and the roof collapsing.

Everyone else that visits and listens to the system just hold on real tight to their chairs...


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I think you should get one of these.
I'll invite myself over when it arrives
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post #23 of 31 Old 08-23-2017, 11:23 AM
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I think you should get one of these.

I'll invite myself over when it arrives


Lol. Remember I could not even accommodate a XV30 FSE? This is almost double. Will never be able to accommodate. I love the V1801s man. My family is worried for my health and the integrity of the house.


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post #24 of 31 Old 08-23-2017, 11:28 AM
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Most people (in my opinion) want high SPL with the smallest size, best appearance, and lowest distortion for the least amount of money.
I think this was designed not to be ignored. I'm guessing that's the reason there aren't any grills. The sheer size is a selling point (for its intended market). To some degree its performance is secondary. Its mere presence delivers what most can't and as such there isn't a lot (if any) competition... if you are that market.

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post #25 of 31 Old 08-23-2017, 02:10 PM
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I think it's more a case of performance being primary, with weight/volume/appearance being a smaller factor.
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post #26 of 31 Old 08-23-2017, 05:24 PM
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I think this was designed not to be ignored. I'm guessing that's the reason there aren't any grills. The sheer size is a selling point (for its intended market). To some degree its performance is secondary. Its mere presence delivers what most can't and as such there isn't a lot (if any) competition... if you are that market.
You're right, the S7201 will not be ignored. I can just see people visiting climber and asking: "What's that THING living in the corner of your room?" Then he can turn it on and watch the blood drain from their face. It's pretty cool to see something new and different, time will tell how it performs but for now its neat to see something different.
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post #27 of 31 Old 08-23-2017, 05:32 PM
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well 120 db's flat down to 12hz still isnt enough in open floorplan home...think I need 140+db flat...just kinding...the attached sinwewave runs dont equate to what music actually sounds like...closer to 130 db in some spots in house...nope not even everywhere. but it +/-3 or 4 db i bet.

good luck with new beast.

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File Type: jpg fv25hp and fv15hp.jpg (103.4 KB, 289 views)

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #28 of 31 Old 08-23-2017, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
You're right, the S7201 will not be ignored. I can just see people visiting climber and asking: "What's that THING living in the corner of your room?" Then he can turn it on and watch the blood drain from their face. It's pretty cool to see something new and different, time will tell how it performs but for now its neat to see something different.
Yeah, no kidding. It makes my RTiA9 speakers look like bookshelf speakers.

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Power Sound Audio S7201 Quad 18" 4000W Sealed Subwoofer - Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Epson 5030UB Projector - Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - - XBox One S - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
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post #29 of 31 Old 08-23-2017, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
Yeah, no kidding. It makes my RTiA9 speakers look like bookshelf speakers.

Hahaha omg! I also have RTIA9's as my mains and this pic is so epic. I showed my wife. Got a matching epic

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Yamaha RX-A 1060
Emotiva BASX A3
Polk Audio RTi A9
Polk Audio CSi A6
PSA V1801
LG 55B6 OLED
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post #30 of 31 Old 08-24-2017, 09:51 AM
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What other sealed subs are in the same performance bracket?

Is this the type of sealed sub that we can do an apples to apples comparison vs. a vented sub?
An apples:apples comparison never occurs unless you pick one single metric to compare on. Subwoofers from different manufacturers are all different prices, sizes, form factors, performance, and of course aesthetic appeal. You can compare on price alone and come up with some pretty amusing comparisons with radically different designs where you might compare a JL F113v2 ($4500), a Paradigm Prestige 2000SW ($3,999), and the PSA S7201. Obviously those products are all designed for very different customers, different applications, and different expectations.

Very large subwoofers are a unique niche where it is possible to gain significant performance from the same power as a compact design, assuming it is practical to ship and deliver such a beast. Using one large amplifier is often more cost effective than 2-4 smaller units, and once the box is already huge, you don't fret as much about another 2-3" in any one dimension... so long as it still fits through a doorway.

Having delivered a 600 lb, 7' tall subwoofer for a custom project, along with a handful of 200-350 lb beasts. For a production offering I opted for a scalable and expandable approach that kept depth reasonable for screen walls, rear of the room, and to avoid the acoustic faux-pas of a subwoofer creating a very audible, near reflection from subwoofer cabinets protruding forward of nearby the main speakers. Over the years I've found many customers run into limiting dimensions where a soffit and stage quickly eat up height, a design feature, seating distance, or already constructed screen wall limits depth. If you then consider how many theaters are in basements or 2nd floors, any item much over 200 lbs should be given serious evaluation and even be mocked up to insure it will clear through the path. I've seen others seriously struggle or have to demo walls to get the Wilson XS subwoofer into basement and 2nd floor theaters (at 700 lbs it makes the Thor's Hammer look modest in comparison). The theme here is that when it comes to extreme subwoofer solutions, there's almost always more to consider than just price and performance.

To answer the original question, there are many alternate options, although they will all come with different strengths and benefits. JTR, Funk, Deep Sea Sound, myself and a few others all offer some pretty wild options to blow your hair back. There's even the wacky 50" subwoofer Ascendo demonstrated in Munich this spring. No matter how crazy a design seems, I guarantee you will find someone going further or using 2-4 of what is already pretty over the top. Soon after introducing the F18 modular solution, I quickly had a customer install 6 and then bump to 12 F18s in 4 stacks of 3 x F18s like the set in my Avatar. I think of those as 4 separate subwoofers rather than as 12. For those with the 23.5" x 18" footprint and 6-8' of height, a stack of 3 or 4 is certainly a valid comparison with their own strengths in both form or performance.

We even include magnetic grills:


Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
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