Submersive HP+ vs Captivator 1400 vs ??? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 23 Old 09-24-2017, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Submersive HP+ vs Captivator 1400 vs ???

I'm in the market for new sub(s). Current sub is Dayton Audio Sub-100

Listening is 95% music(I don't really watch movies more than once, and I usually don't enjoy the types of movies that have good low frequency sound).

I was pretty set on the Submersive HP+ plus one slave unit(which comes to $3600), but recent readings on this forum has me wondering if my room might possibly be better suited for ported subs.

Room is ~7,000ft^3. It's a 15x19x10 living room area that's open to the kitchen which makes it 37x19x10, though there are arches that kinda separate the kitchen from the living room. Listening position is 13-14ft from front speakers. Here is a rough blueprint I sketched

https://imgur.com/a/ZZSVA

Music listening is usually between -20 and -10 on the avr, but this could go up a bit when I get my new speakers, subs, and isolation treatments.

I'm a huge believer in blind listening tests, and the Submersives and Sealed Caps seem to win the music categories at those meets. But, those meets - from what I read - are in smaller rooms. Would dual Submersives be able to fill a room of my size? This thread by carp gives me confidence that it will, but almost everyone in that thread seems to agree that the Cap 1400s provided more tactile feedback in a room that size, but it wasn't blind. Carp seemed to enjoy the Submersives more for music in that space, but it wasn't blind, and the gtg didn't test music as far as I read. Music is all I really care about.

How important is better tactile feedback for music at -10 levels? Given my current 10inch $100 sub, I'm not sure it's a feeling I've ever really experienced, so I have no idea. It would be great to be able to hear both side by side, but that seems like a dream at this point. I live in College Station, TX.

With the master/slave config, dual Submersives are actually cheaper

Submersive HP and Slave: $3,600
Dual Captivator 1400: $4,000

Also looking at the Sealed Caps, but those are $800 more than the Seatons at $4,400.

What do y'all think? Is there anything else I should be considering at this price point? Given my current single sub, I'm sure I'll be amazed at whatever I go with, but I just want the best I can get on this budget.
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post #2 of 23 Old 09-24-2017, 08:00 PM
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I had the chance to listen to both side by side and even take measurements with REW in @imureh house. You can read my conclusions in this thread:

Dual Seaton Submersive HP on the way!

But your room is totally different in size and shape compared to @imureh room so take my conclusions with a grain of salt. The best you can do is audition both subwoofers in your room and make a final decision based in your listening experience and not in numbers or in other people recommendations.



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post #3 of 23 Old 09-24-2017, 08:39 PM
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I have the SubMersive HP+ Master and Slave and they have tons of output for sealed subs. I'd have a hard time picturing speakers they could not keep up with for music in that room that were not just unloaded off a Pink Floyd tour bus. All that said, both the subs you are looking at are world class and will completely destroy the sub you have now. You really can't go wrong either way.
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post #4 of 23 Old 09-24-2017, 09:39 PM
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How likely are you to start watching more movies after you have gotten a pair of world class subs? Some people end up watching more movies after getting good subs because the movies sound awesome!

Your space demands ported subs but your purpose screams sealed subs.

I don't know about you but whenever I can't decide, I would go with the cheaper one to save $$$.

You should also consider F18+ and slave combo which are $200 cheaper than the Submersives.

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post #5 of 23 Old 09-25-2017, 06:52 AM
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wow, talk about going from the Outhouse to the Penthouse, either of your choices will almost surely blow you away. Personally I'd probably pick the Submersives (due only to your 95% music use) and even then the Cap-1400 is by no means a slouch in that regard.

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post #6 of 23 Old 09-25-2017, 08:36 AM
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I just switched to some sealed S3601's from V1801's in plus or minus a 7000^3 room on a concrete slab and they give off everything a ported does and then some! Although a V1801 is a bit different from a Cap1400 , so that may close the gap a little. I guess size and looks is also a category to think about also.

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post #7 of 23 Old 09-25-2017, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
I had the chance to listen to both side by side and even take measurements with REW in @imureh house. You can read my conclusions in this thread:

Dual Seaton Submersive HP on the way!

But your room is totally different in size and shape compared to @imureh room so take my conclusions with a grain of salt. The best you can do is audition both subwoofers in your room and make a final decision based in your listening experience and not in numbers or in other people recommendations.
Thanks for the thread. Even though that room is totally different, it was still a fun read. Looking at those graphs I'm not surprised that the Submersives sounded better in both contexts. That room gain is unreal. Sadly I don't think I'll be that lucky
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post #8 of 23 Old 09-25-2017, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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How likely are you to start watching more movies after you have gotten a pair of world class subs? Some people end up watching more movies after getting good subs because the movies sound awesome!
I saw that happened to carp. I can't say for certain until everything is here, but I'll say "unlikely". I despise most of the movies you guys talk about in the sub threads(except War of the Worlds and Interstellar), and I have a really hard time watching movies more than once. I like movies like Shawshank Redemption, The Green Mile and Schindlers List.

Also my plan right now is just to build out a good 2 channel system for $8-10k. I'm looking at JTR Noesis 210RT (and potentially the 212RT based on size and release date) for FR and FL, and they won't match my center channel(Infinity Beta 250) anyway. I do plan to have a good HT someday , but I can't afford it yet.

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Your space demands ported subs but your purpose screams sealed subs.
My thoughts exactly haha.

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I don't know about you but whenever I can't decide, I would go with the cheaper one to save $$$.
That's good advice.

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You should also consider F18+ and slave combo which are $200 cheaper than the Submersives.
I asked about these on the Seaton forums but got no response. My understanding is that the F18s are better below 40hz and the Submersives are better above 40hz? Sub 40hz is harder to be better at, thus the higher price. Given the frequencies in most music, wouldn't that make the F18s a more HT oriented sealed sub? I've never heard either.

I wonder how much it would cost to get both in my house at once and pay to ship back the one I like less?
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post #9 of 23 Old 09-25-2017, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by richard12511 View Post
I saw that happened to carp. I can't say for certain until everything is here, but I'll say "unlikely". I despise most of the movies you guys talk about in the sub threads(except War of the Worlds and Interstellar), and I have a really hard time watching movies more than once. I like movies like Shawshank Redemption, The Green Mile and Schindlers List.

Also my plan right now is just to build out a good 2 channel system for $8-10k. I'm looking at JTR Noesis 210RT (and potentially the 212RT based on size and release date) for FR and FL, and they won't match my center channel(Infinity Beta 250) anyway. I do plan to have a good HT someday , but I can't afford it yet.

My thoughts exactly haha.

That's good advice.

I asked about these on the Seaton forums but got no response. My understanding is that the F18s are better below 40hz and the Submersives are better above 40hz? Sub 40hz is harder to be better at, thus the higher price. Given the frequencies in most music, wouldn't that make the F18s a more HT oriented sealed sub? I've never heard either.

I wonder how much it would cost to get both in my house at once and pay to ship back the one I like less?
If you are also eyeing JTR speakers, the price difference would be much closer between dual Cap 1400s and dual Submersives. You would at least save some more on shipping if the JTR subs and speakers are all shipped together. The freight for the JTR Cap 1400 shipped alone is ~$180 each way.

Yes. The F18s are better below 40hz and the Submersives are better above 40hz. The F18s also extend deeper and cost $200 less!!! Did I say that the F18s are newer and allow you to get 2 more 18" slave units for just $1000 each plus freight?

The prices for JTR and Submersives do not include shipping. Therefore, if you return either, you are out freight both ways.

Since the F18+ is smaller and lighter than the Submersive, the freight would be the lowest. The JTR Caps 1400 would be the highest in freight. However, if Jeff is able to fit everything on a pallet, the cost to ship pallet would be capped at $300 or so.
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post #10 of 23 Old 09-26-2017, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
If you are also eyeing JTR speakers, the price difference would be much closer between dual Cap 1400s and dual Submersives. You would at least save some more on shipping if the JTR subs and speakers are all shipped together. The freight for the JTR Cap 1400 shipped alone is ~$180 each way.

Yes. The F18s are better below 40hz and the Submersives are better above 40hz. The F18s also extend deeper and cost $200 less!!! Did I say that the F18s are newer and allow you to get 2 more 18" slave units for just $1000 each plus freight?

The prices for JTR and Submersives do not include shipping. Therefore, if you return either, you are out freight both ways.

Since the F18+ is smaller and lighter than the Submersive, the freight would be the lowest. The JTR Caps 1400 would be the highest in freight. However, if Jeff is able to fit everything on a pallet, the cost to ship pallet would be capped at $300 or so.
To clarify any confusion, the F18 and SubMersive ship in the same size, heavy, custom boxes with waterjet cut, soft foam caps. The SubMersive is a few lbs heavier so typically costs $5-10 more to ship, where shipping for powered vs slaves and various locations range from $80-105 per unit. Our custom packing just skirts the next oversize classification, saving >$70 per package for any FedEx Ground destination. I believe you are remembering the sale pricing from earlier this summer. The cost difference is $100 between the F18 & SubMersive. For less expensive options we have recently received a handful of pre-owned amplifiers from upgrades, so there are options well under $2000.

Edit/Addition: If anyone is waiting on an e-mail response and concerned they are seeing this post but don't yet have a response, please note our email service had some technical issues over the past few days and e-mails which appeared to be sent on our end never made it to the recipient. We are currently going through the past few days of sent e-mails to confirm what was and was not received.

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post #11 of 23 Old 09-26-2017, 08:55 AM
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To clarify any confusion, the F18 and SubMersive ship in the same size, heavy, custom boxes with waterjet cut, soft foam caps. The SubMersive is a few lbs heavier so typically costs $5-10 more to ship, where shipping for powered vs slaves and various locations range from $80-105 per unit. Our custom packing just skirts the next oversize classification, saving >$70 per package for any FedEx Ground destination. I believe you are remembering the sale pricing from earlier this summer. The cost difference is $100 between the F18 & SubMersive. For less expensive options we have recently received a handful of pre-owned amplifiers from upgrades, so there are options well under $2000.
The OP is looking to purchase the master and slave combo. The F18+ ($2,295) is $100 cheaper than the Submersive + ($2,395), and the F18 ($1,095) is $100 cheaper than the Submersive ($1,195). That's why I said that the F18 master and slave combo is $200 cheaper.

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post #12 of 23 Old 09-26-2017, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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If you are also eyeing JTR speakers, the price difference would be much closer between dual Cap 1400s and dual Submersives. You would at least save some more on shipping if the JTR subs and speakers are all shipped together. The freight for the JTR Cap 1400 shipped alone is ~$180 each way.

Yes. The F18s are better below 40hz and the Submersives are better above 40hz. The F18s also extend deeper and cost $200 less!!! Did I say that the F18s are newer and allow you to get 2 more 18" slave units for just $1000 each plus freight?

The prices for JTR and Submersives do not include shipping. Therefore, if you return either, you are out freight both ways.

Since the F18+ is smaller and lighter than the Submersive, the freight would be the lowest. The JTR Caps 1400 would be the highest in freight. However, if Jeff is able to fit everything on a pallet, the cost to ship pallet would be capped at $300 or so.
I guess I misread on the Seaton site. I was thinking the F18s were slightly more expensive. Thanks for pointing that out. Very interesting. The Master/Slave thing that the Seaton's offer is super attractive to me. Who knows, maybe I'll want to add a couple more later

One thing I have going for me is that I live alone. WAF is a non-issue here.
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post #13 of 23 Old 09-26-2017, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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To clarify any confusion, the F18 and SubMersive ship in the same size, heavy, custom boxes with waterjet cut, soft foam caps. The SubMersive is a few lbs heavier so typically costs $5-10 more to ship, where shipping for powered vs slaves and various locations range from $80-105 per unit. Our custom packing just skirts the next oversize classification, saving >$70 per package for any FedEx Ground destination. I believe you are remembering the sale pricing from earlier this summer. The cost difference is $100 between the F18 & SubMersive. For less expensive options we have recently received a handful of pre-owned amplifiers from upgrades, so there are options well under $2000.

Edit/Addition: If anyone is waiting on an e-mail response and concerned they are seeing this post but don't yet have a response, please note our email service had some technical issues over the past few days and e-mails which appeared to be sent on our end never made it to the recipient. We are currently going through the past few days of sent e-mails to confirm what was and was not received.
Hey Mark,

Given my room dimensions and preference for music, how would you rate the F18 vs SubMersive? The price and size differences between the two don't really matter that much to me, but the sonic characteristics do.
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post #14 of 23 Old 09-26-2017, 07:54 PM
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The Master/Slave thing that the Seaton's offer is super attractive to me. Who knows, maybe I'll want to add a couple more later
You can get one slave with the SubMersive and up to three slaves with the F18, if that makes a difference to you. Also keep in mind the slaves act as one unit with the Master so you can't eq or time align them separately.
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post #15 of 23 Old 09-26-2017, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richard12511 View Post
I guess I misread on the Seaton site. I was thinking the F18s were slightly more expensive. Thanks for pointing that out. Very interesting. The Master/Slave thing that the Seaton's offer is super attractive to me. Who knows, maybe I'll want to add a couple more later

One thing I have going for me is that I live alone. WAF is a non-issue here.
Whoa... wait a minute here...

The link below shows the F18+ is $2295 and the slave is $1095...
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/po...18-f18-7829726

However on Seaton site, the F18+ is $2395 and the slave is $1295... basically the same price as Submersive master + slave.

So perhaps Mark can clarify...

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post #16 of 23 Old 09-26-2017, 08:28 PM
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For music, I would look at the 118 over the 1400. Call Jeff and ask him for his thoughts on a subwoofer for music and you room and speaker setup. He would know better than anyone.

The 118 uses a pro audio style driver and for music, I really like the sound of the more efficient pro audio drivers over the typical home theater subwoofer. I have various subs from UM18, Seaton Submersive to pro audio subs from B&C and Eminence that are listed in my signature and for music the home theater subs are no match for music listening to the pro audio subs in my experience. BIG difference in sound and slam in the music frequency range.

Unless you listen to music with content below 20hz then the pro audio subs lack when tuned higher like mine are. I run both type for the best of both worlds using the sealed UM18 and Seasons for the lower bass and the pro audio woofers for 30hz on up. The pro audio subs slam the midbass out and have a distinct sound I have not been able to get from a home theater sub even using EQ. The 118 has the benefit of being tuned lower so you won't give up much unless you listen to stuff with content below 20hz which there is not a lot of in most music.

I will say though for all around movie and music the Submersive is pretty impressive being able to play so low yet still sound good with music. I would still suggest checking out the JTR 118 out of all the ID subs out there.

@Marc Alexander preferred the 118 over the 1400 also for SQ in his comparison thread. Not sure how much music he listened to or if it was based on movies?

From his thread SoCal/LAAVA.org Spring 2017 Subwoofer meet
"OVERALL
1a. JTR CAPTIVATOR 118HT
1b. JTR CAPTIVATOR 1400 (2015)
2. RYTHMIK FV18
3. PSA V1801
4. SEATON SOUND MFW-15 TURBO

Sound Quality
1. RYTHMIK FV18
2. JTR CAPTIVATOR 118HT
3. JTR CAPTIVATOR 1400 (2015)
4. PSA V1801
5. SEATON SOUND MFW-15 TURBO

Tactile Response
1. JTR CAPTIVATOR 1400 (2015)
1. JTR CAPTIVATOR 118HT
2. PSA V1801
4. SEATON SOUND MFW-15 TURBO
5. RYTHMIK FV18"

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I have various subs from UM18, Seaton Submersive to pro audio subs from B&C and Eminence . . . I run both type for the best of both worlds using the sealed UM18 and Seatons for the lower bass and the pro audio woofers for 30hz on up.
I approve of this message. There is something to be said for having multiple weapons in your arsenal and picking the right tool for the right job.
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post #18 of 23 Old 09-27-2017, 07:47 AM
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Whoa... wait a minute here...

The link below shows the F18+ is $2295 and the slave is $1095...
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/po...18-f18-7829726

However on Seaton site, the F18+ is $2395 and the slave is $1295... basically the same price as Submersive master + slave.

So perhaps Mark can clarify...
My apologies for the confusion. The website will be updated very soon. The F18+/F18-Slave will be going to $2395/$1195 as noted before the end of the year. I had expected that to happen much sooner when that equipment list was posted from Axpona. Since then we pushed back the price increase while we have been working with the builders to catch up on woofer supply which will happen by Nov 1st. Current pricing is correct on the forum, and you can find specifications for the F18 here on our forum. Pricing will hold at the current amount at least through the end of November.
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post #19 of 23 Old 09-27-2017, 08:31 AM
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Hey Mark,

Given my room dimensions and preference for music, how would you rate the F18 vs SubMersive? The price and size differences between the two don't really matter that much to me, but the sonic characteristics do.
Given the space you've described and your music leaning interest I would lean toward a pair of SubMersives (HP+/HP-Slave). The low distortion in the music range and the increased efficiency are qualities you will subjectively hear and benefit from. While the Secrets' review was a bit more home theater focused, you can find many comments about the sound quality in his listening report.

Sorry for not properly responding to your question on our forum. That popped up right as I was starting to help my parent's out of a house they were in for 42 years and into a new home 1000 miles away. Looking at the layout, I would more so consider your listening space a 15' wide x 19' deep room with an open left wall. This isn't really the same as figuring a 19' wide x 37' room which it might look like at first glance.

If you are planning on going with a new surround processor, the extra controls of our most recent amplifier version might not be as beneficial, and you could entertain the option of grabbing a pair of HP+ subwoofers loaded with a pre-owned, 1st generation HP+ amplifier (loaded in a new cabinet) for a little less than the HP+ & HP-Slave combo. This gives you the option of adding another pair of HP-Slave units down the road for a lot less than the powered units. Any sealed solution will offer the benefit that adding more subwoofers lets you get more and more of the deepest bass energy, while ported options have the hard limit of the port tuning.

If you are feeling the large, ported option calling, and are comfortable with a screwdriver and some connections, you could even take a look at the X21, ported cabinet for a 21" woofer with dual 6" ports I designed for our cabinet maker, WW-Speakercabinets to sell directly. Some early measurements I posted are on our forum, but Josh Ricci now has detailed measurements of the X21 loaded with the B&C 21DS115-4 posted on Data-Bass. A pair of those with amplification would be well within your budget, even in the same black maple or black oak veneer finishes we offer.
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post #20 of 23 Old 09-28-2017, 12:16 PM
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Data Bass measurements on the big X21 cabinet are now up and can be found here.
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post #21 of 23 Old 09-28-2017, 10:26 PM
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Here are a few graphs comparing the JTR 1400 to the 21DS115-4 in @Mark Seaton cabinet(both ports open, you could close 1 for a lower tune and more output down low). It looks really good to me all around and for the money very competitive with the other options out there. Looking at distortion numbers it looks really good in that department also.

http://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=144
"If we add up the cost of this system as tested we come up with: About $930 for the X21 cabinet, $250-300 street price for the Inuke 3000DSP and $500-600 street price for the B&C 21DS115-4, for a total as tested system cost of about $1680 to $1830."

One note, I don't believe shipping is figured into the above price of the cabinet? I could be wrong but I would estimate $150-200 for shipping. Maybe Mark will chime in as he would have a better idea on shipping prices.



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Last edited by bscool; 09-28-2017 at 10:40 PM.
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post #22 of 23 Old 09-29-2017, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Given the space you've described and your music leaning interest I would lean toward a pair of SubMersives (HP+/HP-Slave). The low distortion in the music range and the increased efficiency are qualities you will subjectively hear and benefit from. While the Secrets' review was a bit more home theater focused, you can find many comments about the sound quality in his listening report.

Sorry for not properly responding to your question on our forum. That popped up right as I was starting to help my parent's out of a house they were in for 42 years and into a new home 1000 miles away. Looking at the layout, I would more so consider your listening space a 15' wide x 19' deep room with an open left wall. This isn't really the same as figuring a 19' wide x 37' room which it might look like at first glance.

If you are planning on going with a new surround processor, the extra controls of our most recent amplifier version might not be as beneficial, and you could entertain the option of grabbing a pair of HP+ subwoofers loaded with a pre-owned, 1st generation HP+ amplifier (loaded in a new cabinet) for a little less than the HP+ & HP-Slave combo. This gives you the option of adding another pair of HP-Slave units down the road for a lot less than the powered units. Any sealed solution will offer the benefit that adding more subwoofers lets you get more and more of the deepest bass energy, while ported options have the hard limit of the port tuning.

If you are feeling the large, ported option calling, and are comfortable with a screwdriver and some connections, you could even take a look at the X21, ported cabinet for a 21" woofer with dual 6" ports I designed for our cabinet maker, WW-Speakercabinets to sell directly. Some early measurements I posted are on our forum, but Josh Ricci now has detailed measurements of the X21 loaded with the B&C 21DS115-4 posted on Data-Bass. A pair of those with amplification would be well within your budget, even in the same black maple or black oak veneer finishes we offer.
Thanks for the reply Mark. Sounds like the Submersive HP+/Slave is what I want.

That X21 is
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