* Offical Velodyne Support Thread * - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 9652 Old 10-09-2004, 07:34 AM
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curt/bruce - I need some help selecting between your subs. I currently have an SPL-1200 series 1. I have a home theater room in my 1000sf finished basement. The theater room is approx. 250sf and is partially opened to the rest of the basement. I use my system for 65/35 movies and music. My main speakers are B&W CDM 9NTs.

My goal is more punch for the LFE track on DVDs. I'm quite happy with how the SPL-1200 integrates with the mains for music (80Hz crossover).

I'd like to only spend what is required to obtain my objective. I view my choices as the CHT-15R, HGS-12X, HGS-15X, DD-12 or DD-15.

Would the CHT-15R work? I would be concerned with it's integration with the mains for 2 channel music since it's not a sealed design. True? Would the HGS - 12/15X be enough of an improvement over my SPL-1200? Do I need to spend the big money on the DD series - other than the calibration benefits will they provide that much of an improvement over the HGS? Should I consider using my current SPL-1200 along with one of the above?

Finally, could you talk your marketing people into posting list prices on your website?

Sorry for all the questions - and thanks in advance for your help.

I want a Masquerade.
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post #722 of 9652 Old 10-09-2004, 09:52 AM
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Question for the pro's....I am going to purchase a new sub very soon.....I have narrowed it down to 3 companies and one of them is Velodyne.I have decided to go with either the DLS- 5000R or the CHT-15.My question and I know it is just opinions but which one is better and would be a better choice for me.So far I have Polk RTi12's(L & R) and Polk CSi5 for the center and will be getting the Pioneer 1014....I will be getting Polk's for the rear.I listen to about 70% HT and 30% music(Hardrock) Hopefully with this info you guys could steer me in the right direction.Thanks...Oh the room's size(open floor plan) is about 13 x 15 that opens to about the same size on the other side.I hope I explained it correct.Thanks again....one more thing where can I get a picture of the back(controls)of the DLS-5000R?
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post #723 of 9652 Old 10-09-2004, 06:09 PM
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Bruce/Curt,

I have just unpacked and hooked up my new DD-18. Unfortunately, though the Velodyne Logo light on the front comes on, nothing else seems to work. The unit does not respond to any button on the remote control (with or without the grill on the speaker), nor does it generate a video signal for my tv (and I have checked the connection and setup with another video source). This is very disappointing. Any ideas?

Mark
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post #724 of 9652 Old 10-10-2004, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mccomiskey
Bruce/Curt,

I have just unpacked and hooked up my new DD-18. Unfortunately, though the Velodyne Logo light on the front comes on, nothing else seems to work. The unit does not respond to any button on the remote control (with or without the grill on the speaker), nor does it generate a video signal for my tv (and I have checked the connection and setup with another video source). This is very disappointing. Any ideas?

Mark

Hi Mark,
Sent you a PM with a couple other tests to try.

Bruce

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post #725 of 9652 Old 10-10-2004, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mit07
curt/bruce - I need some help selecting between your subs. I currently have an SPL-1200 series 1. I have a home theater room in my 1000sf finished basement. The theater room is approx. 250sf and is partially opened to the rest of the basement. I use my system for 65/35 movies and music. My main speakers are B&W CDM 9NTs.

My goal is more punch for the LFE track on DVDs. I'm quite happy with how the SPL-1200 integrates with the mains for music (80Hz crossover).

I'd like to only spend what is required to obtain my objective. I view my choices as the CHT-15R, HGS-12X, HGS-15X, DD-12 or DD-15.

Would the CHT-15R work? I would be concerned with it's integration with the mains for 2 channel music since it's not a sealed design. True? Would the HGS - 12/15X be enough of an improvement over my SPL-1200? Do I need to spend the big money on the DD series - other than the calibration benefits will they provide that much of an improvement over the HGS? Should I consider using my current SPL-1200 along with one of the above?

Finally, could you talk your marketing people into posting list prices on your website?

Sorry for all the questions - and thanks in advance for your help.

Hi Mit,
Interesting situation. You say you want more "punch" for the LFE tracks. My first reaction is that your SPL 1200 should have all the punch you need. However, its set up to integrate with your B&Ws, (which we hold in very high regard, BTW) and so does not offer the punch you're looking for.

The first word that comes to mind is "presets." That is, some way to dynamically adjust the volume and frequency contour of the woofer to adapt to the source material. Of the models you mentioned, the CHT-15R and DD series have presets, but as you point out the sealed design of the DD makes it a better fit with your B&Ws. So, my first choice for a "single woofer" solution would be a DD-12 or DD-15.

Or, you could add another woofer just for LFE. Here, the CHT-15R would be a scary performer, assuming you've got the floor real estate. It's kind of like a Frankenstein design - we took a 15" driver in a slotted cabinet, put in the SPL switching amplifier (the SPL-I amp like you have with 600 watts), and paired it with the new 2401 DSP computer we use on the rest of the DLS-R series. To say it's loud is a gross understatement.

Or as another alternative, find another SPL-1200 I and tune it to play LFE. That is, more volume and possibly a lower crossover point.

I don't as a rule point people to the highest $$$ solution, but in this case, I would recommend the DD. There is no substitute for what you can do with the EQs, the presets, and adjusting the servo, all from the comfort of your TV screen. You will really appreciate it.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

p.s. I'll talk to the marketing people, but as Dilbert said, there's a two drink minimum over there!

Bruce Hall
Velodyne Acoustics
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post #726 of 9652 Old 10-10-2004, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GaryZ06
Question for the pro's....I am going to purchase a new sub very soon.....I have narrowed it down to 3 companies and one of them is Velodyne.I have decided to go with either the DLS- 5000R or the CHT-15.My question and I know it is just opinions but which one is better and would be a better choice for me.So far I have Polk RTi12's(L & R) and Polk CSi5 for the center and will be getting the Pioneer 1014....I will be getting Polk's for the rear.I listen to about 70% HT and 30% music(Hardrock) Hopefully with this info you guys could steer me in the right direction.Thanks...Oh the room's size(open floor plan) is about 13 x 15 that opens to about the same size on the other side.I hope I explained it correct.Thanks again....one more thing where can I get a picture of the back(controls)of the DLS-5000R?

Hi Gary,
The DLS-5000R is the "next generation" CHT-15. Please see my recent post to Mit07 for a quick description. It will more than fit the bill for your hard rock and LFE needs.

The DLS-5000R has a remote that handles preset selection, volume, phase, mute, and night mode functions. So, all that's needed are volume up and down buttons and an adjustable crossover knob on the DLS-500R back panel - that's it.

One more thing - you might find the CHT-15 on closeout somewhere. The DLS-5000R is not officially out yet - we expect to ship in December.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

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post #727 of 9652 Old 10-10-2004, 07:43 AM
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Bruce thanks for your help
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post #728 of 9652 Old 10-10-2004, 10:23 AM
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Bruce,

Thanks for the PM. I replied, so just let me know what to do next.

Mark
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post #729 of 9652 Old 10-10-2004, 01:21 PM
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Okay Bruce....yeah I know I am confused so let me add one more question about subs.In my previous question just a couple of posts above I asked you about the DLS-5000R and the CHT-15.....How would the SPL-1200 Series II compare.....would it be better for me?I like the smaller size but want to make sure it has a good punch. Thanks again and I am sure it is not the last question about your geat subs.
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post #730 of 9652 Old 10-10-2004, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GaryZ06
Okay Bruce....yeah I know I am confused so let me add one more question about subs.In my previous question just a couple of posts above I asked you about the DLS-5000R and the CHT-15.....How would the SPL-1200 Series II compare.....would it be better for me?I like the smaller size but want to make sure it has a good punch. Thanks again and I am sure it is not the last question about your geat subs.

Hi Gary,
The SPL-1200 is more powerful at 1,000 watts, and has the most output of the SPL series. Being sealed, it is more accurate than anything with a port or slot, and has a current sensing servo to increase accuracy even more. It won't match the DLS-5000R's output levels, but it will certainly put out plenty.

All things being equal, and that you like 70% HT and mostly hard rock, the DLS-5000R might be a better choice. And, it is just over half the $$$ of the SPL-1200. But I would urge you to go listen for yourself!

Hope this helps,
Bruce

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post #731 of 9652 Old 10-10-2004, 02:55 PM
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Curt or Bruce,

I need to replace my remote and accessory kit for my DD-12.
It was damaged during the storm surge of Hurricane Ivan here in Gulf Breeze, Florida. The subwoofer itself seems to be allright. Who do i need to get in touch with for these replacements. I love this sub.

Thanks,

Jeff
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post #732 of 9652 Old 10-10-2004, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BruceHall
Hi Gary,
The SPL-1200 is more powerful at 1,000 watts, and has the most output of the SPL series. Being sealed, it is more accurate than anything with a port or slot, and has a current sensing servo to increase accuracy even more. It won't match the DLS-5000R's output levels, but it will certainly put out plenty.

All things being equal, and that you like 70% HT and mostly hard rock, the DLS-5000R might be a better choice. And, it is just over half the $$$ of the SPL-1200. But I would urge you to go listen for yourself!

Hope this helps,
Bruce

Thanks again for your vital help.
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post #733 of 9652 Old 10-10-2004, 04:08 PM
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Bruce, thanks for your helpful response. I have a follow-up question on the DD series (if you have answered this before please post a link).

The brochure for the DD series indicates that you can set the sub to play louder (e.g. for movies) or tighter (e.g. for music) depending on the source material. No more compromising between a "musical" sub and a "theatrical" sub.

Could you please explain this a bit further. In other words is the movie/music preset simply increasing the loudness for more SPL during movies? Or telling the servo not to limit the cone excursion as much (again to play louder) at the expense of slightly more distortion?

I want to believe that a great "musical" sub is also a great "theatrical" sub. Why the need for presents if this is true?

I want a Masquerade.
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post #734 of 9652 Old 10-10-2004, 06:48 PM
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Mit07 -

I own a DD sub and can answer your questions about the music / movie settings for the series. The DDs are super flexible and allow you to create five custom presets. The adjustments include servo control, separate volume settings, and frequency response contour control. There are also other adjustments that can be made to each preset, but the three I've just listed are the most relevant to your question.

The servo control allows you to adjust the servo from 1-8 (1 = least amount of servo control, 8 = full servo control). For movies, you could set it to 1 for greater output (slightly higher distortion), and for music set it to 8. The contour feature allows you to shape the response. You pick the center frequency for the range you want to enhance and the level of intensity (gain is +6dB to -12dB). For instance, for movies you could set the contour to 40Hz for greater slam. And of course, you adjust the overall volume for each preset depending on your preference for various sources.

Note: The presets are labeled things like "Movies", "Jazz", "Rock", on the remote, but they can be customized however you like.

Cheers,

- Tim
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post #735 of 9652 Old 10-11-2004, 12:47 AM
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A question for the room. In my bedroom system, I am running KEF KHT 9000 ACE speakers,and B&W SCM 8 surrounds. I have an opportunity to buy a DD-10 at a great price, but am concerned it may not be pwerful enough -- my room is 23x17x9. I can't afford the DD12 or 15. So, do I go with the more technologically advanced, but perhaps too small DD10, or a larger, but inferior model? My budget is about $1200, which is what I can get the DD10 for.
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post #736 of 9652 Old 10-11-2004, 07:59 AM
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Tim, thanks for your response. I'm still a bit confused and would love to hear from Bruce at Velodyne. Follow-up:

#1 Servo. If you adjust the servo from 1-8 (low to high) for servo control, how much more distortion is there at 1 vs 8. At what level of distortion does it become audible? In other words, why not set the servo at the level that provides the most output w/o audible distortion for music and movies. What good is more output if it creates audible distortion?

#2 Frequency response contour. Why would anyone want to increase the level of intensity at a certain frequency range? Are movies more dynamic if you increase the gain at 40Hz in Tim's example? Doesn't this defeat the whole purpose of using the DD to flatten out a rooms low frequency response peaks and valleys? If you increase the 40Hz range for "more slam" during a movie, would't the musical scenes in the same movie sound unnatural?

#3 Volume. Is this simply the "usual" volume dial on the back of most subs that increase the output.

Thanks.

I want a Masquerade.
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post #737 of 9652 Old 10-11-2004, 08:22 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Mit07
Tim, thanks for your response. I'm still a bit confused and would love to hear from Bruce at Velodyne. Follow-up:

#1 Servo. If you adjust the servo from 1-8 (low to high) for servo control, how much more distortion is there at 1 vs 8. At what level of distortion does it become audible? In other words, why not set the servo at the level that provides the most output w/o audible distortion for music and movies. What good is more output if it creates audible distortion?

#2 Frequency response contour. Why would anyone want to increase the level of intensity at a certain frequency range? Are movies more dynamic if you increase the gain at 40Hz in Tim's example? Doesn't this defeat the whole purpose of using the DD to flatten out a rooms low frequency response peaks and valleys? If you increase the 40Hz range for "more slam" during a movie, would't the musical scenes in the same movie sound unnatural?

#3 Volume. Is this simply the "usual" volume dial on the back of most subs that increase the output.

Thanks.

Hi Mit,
#1. The amount of distortion varies depending on output level, but let me describe it this way. At setting one, the servo checks and corrects the cone motion about 5,500 times per second. At setting 8, it checks and corrects at 15,800 times per second. So, there's about 3 times more servo correction at setting eight than setting one, and so you could expect the distortion to be about one third that of setting one. The theory of settings other than eight is that action adventure movies have more explosions, etc. that benefit from a bit more distortion (hence, more output). However, it should be noted that when we say distortion we are talking small levels even at setting one (our HGS series, the predecessor to DD, has correction at 3,500 times per second and folks thought that was very low in distortion), and that this is all strictly to taste - I've seen folks set all the presets to eight and forget about them.

#2. This is not uncommon - to adjust the frequency curve depending on the source material. For movies we bump 35 hz a little (those explosions again) and for pop/rock we bump 60 a little (to get drumbeat slam). For the jazz/classical preset, everything is flat. Once again, all is a matter of personal preference - our factory settings are merely suggestions.

#3. Yes, volume is just volume control. But there is a setting for each preset that allows a "volume differential" - that is, the ability to have a higher or lower volume kick in when the preset is invoked. For example, you might want to have your action adventure preset have 3 dB more volume - so just set it that way.

Have you seen a DD in action? It would make all this a bit easier to understand...

Hope this helps,
Bruce

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post #738 of 9652 Old 10-11-2004, 08:40 AM
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Bruce, thanks again for your thoughtful response.

I did hear a DD12 at a Tweeter location. Unfortunately I find that:

#1, even in more "knowledgable than average" locations like Tweeter, the salesreps know very little about the DD series, and are useless in providing a quality demo that highlights the DD advantages.

#2, the realization that the best course of action for me is to find as much as I can upfront, and then get my final 2 or 3 sub choices into my home for an extensive demo period. As such, I will need to buy the Velo from a local retailer with return privileges.

I want a Masquerade.
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post #739 of 9652 Old 10-11-2004, 10:18 AM
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Mit07 -

You wrote:
#1 Servo. If you adjust the servo from 1-8 (low to high) for servo control, how much more distortion is there at 1 vs 8. At what level of distortion does it become audible? In other words, why not set the servo at the level that provides the most output w/o audible distortion for music and movies. What good is more output if it creates audible distortion?

I would just like to add to Bruce's explanation by clarifying the type of distortion we are talking about here. It is harmonic distortion, not the type of distortion you hear when the cone is out of control, breaking up or bottoming out (the Velo DD line will never do those things). Harmonic distortion, in reasonable amounts can make the sound more full bodied, and with bass in particular, more visceral / powerful. Some people prefer some amount of harmonic distortion for those reasons.

Cheers,

- Tim
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post #740 of 9652 Old 10-11-2004, 08:34 PM
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Bruce,

I thought that my FS 1800R's servo was an accelerometer whose output was compared to the output of the amp. The difference emf would be "fed back" to the final amp stages to control the output's linearity. Your description of newer models with "sampling" makes me believe that the servo mechanism has been modified in newer models. Is there a paper describing the operation and topology of my mid 90's 600 watt 18" model? I'd be willing topay for a copy.

Art Neill
a.k.a.
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post #741 of 9652 Old 10-12-2004, 05:33 AM
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Is there a way to buy one grille for a CHT 41 satellite speaker?, oh, and a small logo for another?

Sony CDP C315 (1 bit Pulse DAC), Margules ACRH-1 Hybrid Integrated Amplifier, Margules ADE-24 (Black Box), Margules QR1 (Line Conditioner), Klipsch Heresy Speakers (the closest thing to a "horn bookshelf" you can find), Tempest DIY Subwoofer
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post #742 of 9652 Old 10-12-2004, 07:05 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by hifisponge
Mit07 -

You wrote:
#1 Servo. If you adjust the servo from 1-8 (low to high) for servo control, how much more distortion is there at 1 vs 8. At what level of distortion does it become audible? In other words, why not set the servo at the level that provides the most output w/o audible distortion for music and movies. What good is more output if it creates audible distortion?

I would just like to add to Bruce's explanation by clarifying the type of distortion we are talking about here. It is harmonic distortion, not the type of distortion you hear when the cone is out of control, breaking up or bottoming out (the Velo DD line will never do those things). Harmonic distortion, in reasonable amounts can make the sound more full bodied, and with bass in particular, more visceral / powerful. Some people prefer some amount of harmonic distortion for those reasons.

Cheers,

- Tim

Absolutely - thanks Tim for the clarification.

Bruce

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post #743 of 9652 Old 10-12-2004, 08:18 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by MrHifi
Bruce,

I thought that my FS 1800R's servo was an accelerometer whose output was compared to the output of the amp. The difference emf would be "fed back" to the final amp stages to control the output's linearity. Your description of newer models with "sampling" makes me believe that the servo mechanism has been modified in newer models. Is there a paper describing the operation and topology of my mid 90's 600 watt 18" model? I'd be willing topay for a copy.

Hi Art,
Topology paper? You overestimate our documentation department

There are differences in the two servos, but in exection only - not in fundamental design.

The servo in your FS 1800R is an analog servo design. That is, a piezo electric chip strains when the cone moves, generating a tiny signal proportional to the acceleration of the cone. This signal goes through an op amp and is fed to a comparator circuit, which compares it to the input signal, which is also really just a representation of acceleration. The difference between the two signals is amplified and biases the signal to the woofer, essentially pre distorting the signal to reduce distotion. The loop gain (that is, benfit from the servo system) is actually measured in dB, in this case about 30 dB, but we translate it to a numerical figure for ease of understanding, and it amounts to about 3500 cone corrections per second.

The DD servo is digital. Same Piezo chip, same tiny signal, but this time it is run through an a to d converter and a digital representaiton of the signal is fed to an input port on the 2407 DSP chip. Each time through the computer's loop - in our case about 15,800 times per second, the acceleromoter signal is compared to the input signal the same way as in the analog design. The signal sent to the amplifier is again biased to reduce distortion. The comparator circuit in the analog design is now represented by software - an inherently more accurate and flexible way to do things.

There are two key differences between the systems. First, the digital nature of the DD system reduces servo noise. I'll bet that if you stick your ear into your FS 1800R you'll hear a faint white noise - this is the servo loop. The digital system has no such noise at all - it is completely quiet.

The other difference is in loop gain - 3500 versus 15,800 times per second, and we get the benefit of putting in a scale to control the loop gain - this is what we call the theater/music setting.

Other servo systems rely on back-EMF, positional sensors, or put a microphone inside the cabinet, or have other transducers. We've found this way provides the most loop gain and hence, the most benefit.

I hope this helps explain things - and it's free! Of course, you get what you pay for...

Bruce

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post #744 of 9652 Old 10-12-2004, 12:32 PM
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I've read through the DD user guide, and still have a question regarding cabling to the DD-15.

This is part of a combination HT/music setup that will include an Anthem pre/pro, 7-channel power amp, and a set of Gallo Ref3/a'Diva speakers. The cable run to the sub will be a bit long, so I'm thinking that using a balanced XLR cable is the best way to get from the pre/pro to it.

Questions: Will this work for both HT and music, or can the balanced input supply HT LFE only? If this is not optimal, what is?

Thanks!
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post #745 of 9652 Old 10-12-2004, 12:54 PM
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Hi,
The XLR will accept both H/T and music as long as your processor is sending both. It's a balanced line level input. I hope this answers your question.
Thanks,
Curt
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post #746 of 9652 Old 10-13-2004, 03:49 PM
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Curt/Bruce,

I finally have both DD15's hooked up and calibrated with less than 2db difference from 15Hz to 160HZ. Now my dilemma, recently bought a Pronto Pro TSU7000 and really need discrete Power On and Power Off codes. Can one of you guys please provide the discrete codes for the DD series?

Thanks
Ryan
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post #747 of 9652 Old 10-13-2004, 07:33 PM
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Having worked at the National Bureau of Standards early in my carrer, I learned the difference between calibrate and adjust.

Ryan, you adjusted the gain pots to achieve the aforementioned tolerance of 2 dB. Calibration occurs when you set a devices tolerances based on a primary or reference standard thus creating a calibrated secondary standard or device.

Hope you accept this in the spirit I offer it.

I am amazed that you can set any speaker system to a tolerance of 2 dB in a range of 15Hz to 160 Hz. If you look at a real time analyzer when pink noise is sent through those speakers, you will see peaks of 15 dB. I'm not sure how many adjustments are available with the DD15 but I would sure like to understand the Q at the adjustment center points. I have tried doing this in real rooms and have always preferred my ears to the analyzer's results. Perhaps one of the folks from Velodyne would offer some detail on what kind of smoothing/integrationis being done in the readout.

Art Neill
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Mr. HiFi
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post #748 of 9652 Old 10-13-2004, 08:23 PM
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Mr. Hi Fi -

I'm not sure if this will answer your question, but the Q (filter width) and center frequency are adjustable for all 8 of the parametric filters in the DD subs. The center frequency is adjustable in one Hz increments, and the Q is adjustable from very narrow to fairly wide (sorry I don't recall the exact range).

I was also recently told by Curt with Velodyne that the RTA measures and plots 490 points from 15Hz to 200Hz. So it would seem that the resolution of the measurements / readout are quite good.

The DD outputs a sweep tone, rather than pink noise for the reading. Sweep tones are said to be the preferred (more accurate) type of test tone for taking low frequency measurements, but then you probably already know that. ;-)

With that said, I have to agree that the results typically look better than they sound after visually flattening the response. But I haven't given up yet. There are just too many audio authorities advocating the use of parametric EQ for in-room LF correction. And even if I can't get the bass to sound right using the RTA, at least the parametric filters can be adjusted by ear (though it will probably be a laborious process).

Cheers,

- Hifisponge
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post #749 of 9652 Old 10-13-2004, 08:31 PM
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Not finalized, but sounds great. There is a level of control that the S-1200's never had!!!, and they had good distortion specs... makes one wonder!

Waiting on speaker cables for final speaker level connects and 25' RS232 cable.

Using a cheap but interesting 7" DVD player with video input to setup the DD-15s.

Had my father-in-law over to hear the first DD-15, he purchase one a few days later to replace his older 18" Velodyne.

DD-15's in stereo mode
Aragon 8008
Magnepan IIIa's
CJ PV5
Denon DCD 2700 instrument grade select 20 bit DACs
Everything modified (except the DD-15s)
+ no TV
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post #750 of 9652 Old 10-14-2004, 04:54 AM
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Sponge,

It sounds like Velodyne did their homework and provided a very usable parametric equalizer with the kind of adjustability that just might work. I would love to couple it to a paper plot of frequency vs. level to examine the resulting bass reponse. Thanks for the information.

Art Neill
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Mr. HiFi
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