* Offical Velodyne Support Thread * - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 9670 Old 03-07-2005, 06:19 PM
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Quote:


The Integra Research RDC-7.1 allows setting the crossover point between 40 and 150 Hz for each pair of speakers plus it has an LPF for the LFE channel. The sub can also be set to LFE only when running the main speakers as large. I think that meets the requirement in your question. The processors from Lexicon and Meridian also have very flexible bass management and probably have similar capabilities.

This still leaves the problem of only being able to use the DD's sliders on one setting only. So you have the choice of having the sub/mains combo flat for 2 channel or have the sub flat for the LFE channel. Actually I've just remembered, and it probably has been discussed in this huge thread earlier on, the other way of doing is to configure the processor to say you have no sub, have the mains set to large, but send the RCA signal of the front R and front L to the sub and then send the hi-passed signal from the sub to your power amp for the main speakers. THen once you equalised the sub for 2 channel it would be automatically be equalised for LFE channel as well.
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post #992 of 9670 Old 03-07-2005, 10:00 PM
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Is the concern that the LFE will be too loud above the LPF of the mains? I thought there were four presets or so in the DD series, selectable with the remote. If so, you could reduce the output in the range between the different LPF values for one of the presets and set it flat for another.

Also, I'm unsure what happens to the HPF from the LFE channel. Either it gets dropped or perhaps it gets sent to the mains. The LPF of LFE should only be routed to the mains when setting the sub to "off" and when the mains are set to full band.

There is also the option to skip all of those settings and just use the HPF in the sub for running the mains, as you mentioned.

Brian

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post #993 of 9670 Old 03-08-2005, 08:45 AM
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I have a DD-18 in a rather large room, 23 X 23 w/ vaulted ceilings and plenty of openings to other areas. I have the sub in the corner about 13 feet from my couch.

Despite playing w/ several different settings I have been unable to get a satisfactory response in the subjective "WOW" category. Sometimes the sub just does not feel that powerful.

This may be an obvious question but would moving the sub closer to my couch provide a more powerful response? Or once calibrated would they "feel" the same?

Secondly, would an RCA interconnect of 25-30 be to long (as I would have to run it along the mopboards)? I would not want to lose signal strength.

Thanks.

-Brian

Brian R. Smith
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post #994 of 9670 Old 03-08-2005, 09:09 AM
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Brian,
As noted in the manual, after calibration you may need to raise the volume of the subwoofer as human hearing drops off considerably below 100hz. I would suggest you experiment with placement. Interconnect runs 25-30 feet are acceptable. Many large, open areas require two or more DD-18's. It appears to me counting all the openings you may have over 10,000 cubic feet. That's huge. Keep the sub away from any of the openings. You might want to give me a call to get into specifics related to your installation.
Thanks,
Curt (480) 595-7141
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post #995 of 9670 Old 03-08-2005, 11:39 AM
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Curt,

I think he needs a couple of the JBL free standing Imperials we talked about.

Brian,

what Curt just said is extremely important. All the calibration curves in the world can not simulate the low end rolloff of your ears. a roloff defined as such by the measurement standards and technology available to us. most of the early stand alone Pre/Pro's and Dolby decoders recommended boosting the low end LFE channel by +10 dB. I do that sometimes but mostly rely on my ears. one must understand that what is going on in these subs is not magic. It is a flat mass of material being pushed through the air in order to excite that air sufficiently to affect your eardrum to the extent that is pleasing vis a vis other frequency inputs and at whatever level you and your neighbors are able to tolerate. If you try to use the curves and the EQ by itself I guarantee you will be disappointed. Enjoy the technology but please do not get lost in the numbers.

Art Neill
a.k.a.
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post #996 of 9670 Old 03-08-2005, 09:30 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by obiwan
This still leaves the problem of only being able to use the DD's sliders on one setting only.

We can solve this one, anyway.

Version 2.0 of the DD software should be available for free download by the end of the month. In it, each preset can have it's own set of unique EQs (sliders). Unless of course you mean White Castle sliders...

Bruce

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post #997 of 9670 Old 03-09-2005, 02:11 AM
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Excellent Bruce
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post #998 of 9670 Old 03-09-2005, 05:50 AM
 
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Quote:


Originally posted by MrHifi
All the calibration curves in the world can not simulate the low end rolloff of your ears. a roloff defined as such by the measurement standards and technology available to us. most of the early stand alone Pre/Pro's and Dolby decoders recommended boosting the low end LFE channel by +10 dB. I do that sometimes but mostly rely on my ears.

Actually that has nothing to do with Fletcher-Munson curve and our ears. Check this link. Old decoders were not designed correctly and they didn't have this 10dB boost, which all modern decoders have now. "House curve" is the one you're meaning and it's used to compensate our hearing (sensitivity drops strongly below 200Hz).

F-M curve: http://www.allchurchsound.com/ACS/edart/fmelc.html
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post #999 of 9670 Old 03-09-2005, 01:45 PM
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Hi,

I just bought a DD-18, beautiful unit, and I just have a few question about setup and connections

I have it hooked up to a Yamaha Z9, with the setting of a monaural' signal output. (not stereo', not front and back').
Now, first, the Yamaha has left and right LFE pre-outs, as it can accommodate two subs in Stereo/FrontAndRear sound fields.
Do I just connect my sub-woofer cable to ONE of these outputs on the Z9, and then use a Y-splitter cable to connect the other end of the cable to the TWO inputs on the DD-18?
Or can I have my Z9 outputting a Monaural LFE signal through both of its pre-out and connect a separate cable for each left and right pre-out, into the DD-18's left and right inputs? Or does it not really matter, and the effect will be the same?

My second question is:
The DD-18 is a THX Ultra 2 certified sub, and the Z9 is also THX Ultra 2 certified, so in the Z9 there is a setup option which asks if your connected subwoofer is a THX Ultra 2 compatible sub.
What exactly does the amplifier then do if I say YES, or if I say NO to this option. The manual does not really state what this setup feature does. Should I set the Z9 to YES, or NO, and what difference will I hear, or what things is it doing different to the signal?

Thankyou
Cheers
KJ
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post #1000 of 9670 Old 03-09-2005, 01:59 PM
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KJ,
1) I doubt it would make any difference. Either way should work fine.
2) You might want to check with Yamaha on this or perhaps some other users may know. It might have to do with the amount of output voltage the Yamaha sends to the subwoofer jack or perhaps they engage a subsonic filter for the non-THX Ultra II subs.
Any one know for sure?
Curt
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post #1001 of 9670 Old 03-09-2005, 02:33 PM
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I don't know about the Yamaha Z9 in particular, but the IR pre/pro enables a boundary gain compensation option when selecting the Ultra2 sub option. Here is an explanation that I found.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/qa/qa2003/qa360.html

Quote:


Q Do you have a pointer to the THX Ultra2 speaker design specifications? I am mainly interested in knowing the changes from the earlier specs.

A The actual THX specs are confidential to THX and its licensees. THX will divulge on request what sort of things they spec but not what the figure/parameter, etc., actually is.

[...]

The subwoofer spec has changed in that they must be anechoic flat to 20 Hz in order to accommodate larger and more varied spaces. Previously they needed to be anechoic flat to 35, albeit with a shallow (usually 2nd order) rolloff so that assumed room gain would take up the slack to 20 Hz. In practice, this worked very well in my opinion (much better than ported designs which reach a little lower, but then disappear all together). It worked so well in fact that Ultra2 SSPs must include the "Boundary Compensation" option which is a fancy way of saying they make an Ultra2 sub behave like an Ultra, because in most rooms, room gain and an Ultra2 sub end up yielding way too much bass. Go figure.

Brian

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post #1002 of 9670 Old 03-09-2005, 04:06 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by bkzoller
I don't know about the Yamaha Z9 in particular, but the IR pre/pro enables a boundary gain compensation option when selecting the Ultra2 sub option. Here is an explanation that I found.

Brian

Well that is what happens with my Z9, if i enable the option that my Sub is a THX Ultra 2 sub, the Z9 will then allow me to turn on Boundry Gain compensation. So really, the THX ultra 2 setting, doesn't in and of itself do anything. This would also make sense, as when i do enable the THX Ultra 2 setup option, i personally do not hear any change being made to the sound, (unless i am missing something more fundamental?)

But then, excuse my ignorance , say i have now told the Z9 i do have a THX Ultra 2 Sub. How exactly does the new setting available i.e. Boundry gain compensation, help/not help me?
Do i just enable the feature and see if it sounds better, otherwise leave it off?

Thanks
KJ


PS.
Also i just tried to install the 1.6 firmware. I connected the the sub, the light flashed as it updated etc. but after the upload finished, the sub did not reinitialize itself. I waited about 5 min, then turned the sub phisically off and the on again to see if the update had still worked. It did not. So i then downloaded the version 1.5 firmware, installed that, and everything worked fine. I just thought that it was a bit odd
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post #1003 of 9670 Old 03-09-2005, 04:24 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Krazykaj
Well that is what happens with my Z9, if i enable the option that my Sub is a THX Ultra 2 sub, the Z9 will then allow me to turn on Boundry Gain compensation. So really, the THX ultra 2 setting, doesn't in and of itself do anything. This would also make sense, as when i do enable the THX Ultra 2 setup option, i personally do not hear any change being made to the sound, (unless i am missing something more fundamental?)

But then, excuse my ignorance , say i have now told the Z9 i do have a THX Ultra 2 Sub. How exactly does the new setting available i.e. Boundry gain compensation, help/not help me?
Do i just enable the feature and see if it sounds better, otherwise leave it off?

Thanks
KJ

I think that is correct. The Ultra2 option only reveals the boundary gain compensation option to be enabled or disabled, but probably doesn't do anything else. It sounds like the BGC option enables a gradual filter starting at 35 Hz, according to the link I posted. I suppose it will make the Ultra2 subwoofer perform like an Ultra subwoofer.

If you engage that option and run the DD series calibration procedure, is it possible to get a graph of the output? That would seem to be the easiest way to find out what the option does, if it works like that.

Brian

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post #1004 of 9670 Old 03-10-2005, 01:53 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by bkzoller

If you engage that option and run the DD series calibration procedure, is it possible to get a graph of the output? That would seem to be the easiest way to find out what the option does, if it works like that.

If it works like my upgraded Denon 5800 then THX Ultra 2 BGC has no effect when the signal is analog. It will only work with a digital signal. The DD graph will show the same regardless of whether BGC is on or off.

The DD's output is analog so when you calibrate it for a flat response and then switch back to watching a dvd or tv with a digital signal and the BGC is on, you'll lose bass output from around 55hz downwards.

To be honest, BGC is best left off as you can trim the response with the DD.

When I had a dual SVS setup before I bought my DD15 the BGC was very handy at trimming out the low end but I no longer need to use it now that I have a flat response with the DD.
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post #1005 of 9670 Old 03-10-2005, 01:58 AM
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Just to add. If I select that I have a THX Ultra 2 Sub that extends to 20hz I get the option to engage BGC but lose the Subwoofer Peak Limiter option from the main setup menu. If I select that it doesn't extend to 20hz, then the Subwoofer Peak Limiter option remains. I assume this is the same for the Yamaha?

In my setup I've selected THX Ultra 2 sub that extends to 20hz but left BGC off. Works well for me.
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post #1006 of 9670 Old 03-10-2005, 02:40 AM
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Thanks for the help.
I still have plenty of playing/tweaking to do with DD-18 and I'm looking forward to it.

Also, just for a taste of what is to come once I've properly setup, I watched the 'Star Wars' Pod Race scene, and the opening sequence in 'Master and Commander' . . . Wow! can't imagine it getting too much better.

Nice support thread going here by the way, other manufactures/companies should take a hint and follow suit!

Cheers
KJ
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post #1007 of 9670 Old 03-10-2005, 03:01 AM
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Might want to check out Flight of The Phoenix - DTS for a test of what the DD can really do.
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post #1008 of 9670 Old 03-10-2005, 06:45 AM
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but don't watch it(FOTP) before you watch the original...it'll probably ruin it.
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post #1009 of 9670 Old 03-10-2005, 08:20 PM
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Hello again,
Sorry but I have another quick question . . .

I just realised that the feet on the DD-18 are removable by unscrewing them.

My floor is carpet with a thick underlay, but under that is solid concrete (not the best, I know, but nothing much I can do at the moment).

What is the best way to have the sub?

Off the carpet, on the Feet, or . . .
Laying 'feetless', directly flat on the carpet?

Thankyou,

Cheers
KJ
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post #1010 of 9670 Old 03-11-2005, 09:31 AM
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Hi,
My suggestion is feet-less. That's the way I have my eighteens and I'm carpet on concrete.
Curt
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post #1011 of 9670 Old 03-11-2005, 03:40 PM
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I was wondering if anyone here has used the DD 15 or 18 with Lexicon MC12 V4. I have a MC12 V4 with a single paradigm servo 15 with Active paradigms front center back and sides, I have been trying to pickup one more servo 15 but they are hard to find.
But now Iam thinking about just selling the one I have and picking up a couple DD 15's. With V4's room correction which is from 20hz to 250 hz I was wondering how and were the DD eq would come in to play. My room is 14.6wide and 21.6 deep 8.3high all inside measurements Iam sure one DD 15 would be fine but with the room correction in the MC 12 and the DD eqs I think having two sub would really be great.

thanks in advance
Brad
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post #1012 of 9670 Old 03-12-2005, 07:19 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by curt c
Which serial cable were you using? It has to be a mouse extender cable. A modem cable will not work. A couple of pins are reversed on the modem cable. We have the proper cable if you can't find the right one.



Well it's somewhat reassuring to see I'm not the only Velodyne owner pulling his hair out trying to do what should be a simple upgrade procedure!

I've owned two DD-15's since last summer. I buy a new laptop every year. I haven't owned a laptop with a RS-232 serial port for years. The only ports I've got are USB and Firewire.

Why in the world did Velodyne produce state of-the-art subwoofers coupled with such an archaic upgrade path and cable? Requiring an RS-232 9-pin port is bad enough, but then to require a Mouse Extension serial cable to be used with it instead of a Standard RS-232 cable is really being difficult and not user-friendly!

My Anthem Statement D1 Pre/Pro still requires upgrades via RS-232, but at least it is simple for me to perform the upgrade with an easy to buy USB/Serial Cable Adapter. But I can't use that with the DD-15 because Velodyne decided to require a Mouse Extension Serial Cable instead of a Standard RS-232 cable.

To my knowledge and after considerable Google searching, there does not exist a USB/Mouse Extension Serial Cable Adapter. So what am I supposed to do? Buy some old, used out-dated laptop with an RS-232 port just so I can update my dual DD-15's?

It's nice to learn in some other recent post that Velodyne has seen the error of their ways and intends to use a USB port in the next hardware revision of the DD series, but it doesn't help me. Instead of Velodyne having the "proper cable" to sell us = a Mouse Extension Serial Cable available at any CompUSA, what Velodyne should be doing is working with Belkin or some other appropriate vendor to develop a currently unavailable anywhere USB/Mouse Extension Serial Cable for us present DD series owners with modern laptops, who won't benefit from the next revision DD's with USB.

I guess I'll have to buy an old RS-232 laptop on eBay for a few hundred bucks just so I can upgrade my dual DD-15's.

Not a happy camper stuck in Version 1.4! (But, I sure do love the sound of my DD-15's!)

Chris Cargen
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post #1013 of 9670 Old 03-13-2005, 01:39 PM
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Lets hope they provide a USB hardware upgrade path for existing owners.

You CAN find USB->Serial adapters that will work easily though.
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post #1014 of 9670 Old 03-13-2005, 02:07 PM
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Brad,

I have a similar set-up: Lexicon MC12B V4 and a DD15. My room is a dedicated theater 21x15x8 although I have a 4x5 entry at the back corner of my room. I've tried the following set-up options:

1. V4 plus Velo EQ
2. V4 W/O Velo EQ
3. No V4 with Velo EQ

My preferred setting was V4 W/O the Velo EQ (option 2). I do have to admit to my ears the differences were subtle between options 1 & 2 above, but both options 1 & 2 were better then option 3. I use the mid EQ setting (default) for V4.

To set up my sub, I used the Velo EQ system to help find the location as close to flat as possible in my room by placing the DD15 in my "captain's chair" and then moved the mic around the room until I found the flattest response curve. After locating that spot (front of the room next to my center channel) I then ran the auto eq function on the Lex and engaged V4. It was from this location that I tried the 3 different set-ups noted above. I had to adjust the Velo EQ for options 1 & 3 as the setting were different. BTW, Dr. Jim Muller who is the architect behind V4 has stated on the Lexicon forum that he believes option 2 is the preferred option as well. At the same time he mentioned he's a bit bias and that both options 1 or 2 will sound great. Once Velodyne comes out with their auto set-up, I'll see if that makes a difference. I doubt it, but you never know :-).

By way of background I upgraded to a single DD15 from a single Earthquake Supernova 15 MKIV, I found the differences to be much greater then expected between these subs. There is a lot more depth and presence to the sound of the DD15. The bass is cleaner and much tighter. To me the difference is much more noticeable on music than movies, but IMHO the DD15 is superior for both music and movies as compared to the Earthquake. I was originally planning to purchase 2 DD15's but after talking to my dealer I decided to get one first and if at a later date I still wanted more visceral response to then add a second DD15. I'm 90% sure I'll add another DD15 for the extra oomph, but I do not think it's necessary. A single DD15 has a lot of powerbut as we all know this pursuit for A/V perfection can become an obsession.

I hope this helps, have fun.

Pete
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post #1015 of 9670 Old 03-14-2005, 07:04 AM
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Pete
Thanks for the input I will let you know how it all turns out.

Thanks
Brad
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post #1016 of 9670 Old 03-14-2005, 07:38 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by cajunlab
Lets hope they provide a USB hardware upgrade path for existing owners.

You CAN find USB->Serial adapters that will work easily though.


I HAVE a USB-> Serial Adapter and it does NOT work!

It works fine to upgrade my Anthem Statement D1 Pre/Pro, but NOT my Velodyne DD-15's.

That is the whole point of my rant above.

Chris Cargen
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post #1017 of 9670 Old 03-14-2005, 10:01 AM
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Strange....mine works fine....I too have no serial ports on my laptop.
I had to tell the firware update to use COM5.
Strangely it shows COM1, COM2 and COM5 even though there is no COM1 or COM2.

But you are right, it is nearly impossible to find a straight through serial cable at retail.
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post #1018 of 9670 Old 03-14-2005, 10:01 AM
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"I have a similar set-up: Lexicon MC12B V4 and a DD15. My room is a dedicated theater 21x15x8 although I have a 4x5 entry at the back corner of my room. I've tried the following set-up options:

1. V4 plus Velo EQ
2. V4 W/O Velo EQ
3. No V4 with Velo EQ"

I'am using option 1 here and I'am happy with this set-up, but option 2 might be worth too tinker with.

Bob

All Comments made are my own and not of my employer.
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post #1019 of 9670 Old 03-14-2005, 10:35 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by cajunlab
Strange....mine works fine....I too have no serial ports on my laptop.
I had to tell the firware update to use COM5.
Strangely it shows COM1, COM2 and COM5 even though there is no COM1 or COM2.

But you are right, it is nearly impossible to find a straight through serial cable at retail.

Cajunlab, you are on to something with your comment about "I had to switch the firmware update to COM5" because I just read the "Readme" that came with my Anthem Statement DI software installer which says "Installer now scans up to COM6 to establish serial communication - it was found that some USB-serial adapters use virtual assignments COM5 and COM6".

But in the Velodyne Digital Drive Software Update Version 1.5 and 1.6, I see only two options to select, either COM1 or COM2. Cajunlab, how were you able to select COM5???? Perhaps it is because of my PC or PC software (Windows 2000) configuration or something that limits me to COM1 or COM2, but if i was able to update my Anthem D1 with the same hardare and USB-> Serial Cable

If that is the case, then it seems to me Velodyne needs to revise its Software Update Installers to do what Anthem did - namely, to get their Installer to AUTOMATICALLY scan "up to COM6 to establish serial communication".

Velodyne, how about researching this and providing some customer service to your high ticket customers?

Help!

Chris Cargen
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post #1020 of 9670 Old 03-14-2005, 10:54 AM
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Chris,

I had the same problem, this is what I use:

http://www.ebusinesscables.com/usb_serial_cable.htm

and the mouse extender from Frys ($4.99) (DB9 M->F).

Once you installed the driver, COM5 will popup in the update screen as an option, and the blue and amber light (on the sub) will be blinking in fast succession, to indicate successful update. Then, you are set.

I had the issue with extender I bought from CompUSA, it refuses to work. Initially, the thought was on the COM reassignment (thinking that COM1 is a requirement), but it turned out to be not the case. Hope it helps.

Good luck,
Frances


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