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post #1 of 9632 Old 09-20-2003, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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AVS Forum welcomes Bruce Hall, President/CEO of Velodyne.

In this thread, please feel free to ask support questions in regards to Velodyne products. Velodyne staff will monitor the thread and respond as they can. Members of this forum of course are also welcome to help out as they can. For after all, this site is dedicated to people helping people in Home Theater.

David Bott
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DISCLAIMER: All spelling and grammatical errors done on purpose for the proofreadingly challenged...:)

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post #2 of 9632 Old 09-20-2003, 11:14 PM
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I have 2 questions, but maybe only one is a "support" question.

1) I came across a demo HGS-15THX at a local dealer for $1800. Seems like a good deal, but what do you think?

2) I've had Velodynes in the past, but now not. The dealer says, no more HGS series II. Is there a replacement? Or rmaybe this is a better way to phrase it: is there a replacement I can afford? I know the new DD subs are quite expensive. Or maybe the DD-12 is more or less equivalent to the old HGS-15 in terms of performance?

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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post #3 of 9632 Old 09-20-2003, 11:47 PM
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Bruce,
Thanks for taking the time to contribute here and more importantly develop the DD series of subs. First significant advancement in sub technology!
I just purchased the DD-18 & love it.

Here goes:
1. What do you recommend regarding mains, small or large?
The general assumption is mains can't go low...but some can.
See attached for freq.resp of my mains (VA Mahlers per Stereophile). They go to about 35Hz before serious dropoff occurs.
Aren't I wasting the mains running them small?
The impact on the curve by adjusting the DD18 eq is minimal when they are set to Large (since mains are not being controlled).
Does THX mode forces them small to avoid this low freq competition?
2. GUI question: If I adjust the sliders & exit without saving changes, then return to setup the sliders are as I left them (as if I did save changes).
Is this intentional?
3. Didn't I read that the HGS Series will live on as a budget model called the HGS-X?
4. What are the capabilities of the DD subs computer-wise?
i.e. How much memory, what programming language does it use, what chip, might this become an open-architecture where users can program it?

Thanks again!

PS The finish on the DD-18 is beautiful.
LL
LL
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post #4 of 9632 Old 09-21-2003, 06:33 AM
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An online support thread for a retail only manufacturer? Wow! I'm surprised - but very pleased.

Welcome Bruce - glad to see you here!!

I want a Masquerade.
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post #5 of 9632 Old 09-21-2003, 04:38 PM
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Quote:


1) I came across a demo HGS-15THX at a local dealer for $1800. Seems like a good deal, but what do you think?

2) I've had Velodynes in the past, but now not. The dealer says, no more HGS series II. Is there a replacement? Or rmaybe this is a better way to phrase it: is there a replacement I can afford? I know the new DD subs are quite expensive. Or maybe the DD-12 is more or less equivalent to the old HGS-15 in terms of performance?

1). Can't tell you that's the BEST price - there are a lot of places to look and a lot of older Velodyne subs out there. I can say that the price is well under the street price for the HGS-15, and is likely under what will be the suggested price for the HGSX-15 (see #2).

2). The HGS series will live on in the form of the HGSX. We will be doing 12 and 15 inch versions, shipping next month. Re the DD-12 versus HGS-15, all DD subs have an additional 1/4" travel and more liberal gain compressor processing, both allowing them to play louder. I don't know how the DD-12 will stack up to the HGS-15, but I do know that a DD-12 was being tested at the factory and it was bringing the walls down. We'll look at that tomorrow and get some specs.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

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Velodyne Acoustics
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post #6 of 9632 Old 09-21-2003, 08:10 PM
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Bruce,

I have and existing M&KV125 (12 inch 125w amp sealed box). I am moving into a new home with about 6500 cubic feet including all rooms connected to the home theater (archways going to other parts of the house). The actual theater will be 19 feet by 18 feet by 9 feet. Will a DD15 combined with my M&K provide an ample amount of low frequency energy?
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post #7 of 9632 Old 09-21-2003, 08:17 PM
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Bruce,

I'm not a current velodyne owner, but I am seriously considering velodyne subs for my new HT setup (anyting in the price rnge of the servo 15's canadian prce), and i just wanna say that what you are doing is extremely cool.

we need more guys like Mark Shifter and Bruce in here!
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post #8 of 9632 Old 09-21-2003, 09:20 PM
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Well since no one will reply to this in another thread, I'll post it here.

How do the CHT8 and CHT10 sound? what are they like?
Is $179 for the CHT-8 a good price from Video Only in Tukwila, WA. I'm not sure if they are a seattle washington only dealer or not. i wanna know how the CHT-8 and 10 are.
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post #9 of 9632 Old 09-22-2003, 12:26 AM
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Thanks Bruce!

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ... Something old and something new :-)

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post #10 of 9632 Old 09-22-2003, 03:26 AM
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I've been trying to find prices for the new DD line and can't find any. Will you give me the price points for the new subs? Thanks

Daniel Smith

You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake; you are the same decaying organic matter as everything else ... We are the all singing all dancing crap of the world.

- Tyler Durden
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post #11 of 9632 Old 09-22-2003, 08:27 AM
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Quote:


1. What do you recommend regarding mains, small or large?
The general assumption is mains can't go low...but some can.
See attached for freq.resp of my mains (VA Mahlers per Stereophile). They go to about 35Hz before serious dropoff occurs.
Aren't I wasting the mains running them small?
The impact on the curve by adjusting the DD18 eq is minimal when they are set to Large (since mains are not being controlled).
Does THX mode forces them small to avoid this low freq competition?
2. GUI question: If I adjust the sliders & exit without saving changes, then return to setup the sliders are as I left them (as if I did save changes).
Is this intentional?
3. Didn't I read that the HGS Series will live on as a budget model called the HGS-X?
4. What are the capabilities of the DD subs computer-wise?
i.e. How much memory, what programming language does it use, what chip, might this become an open-architecture where users can program it?

Hi Cajun,
Glad you're enjoying the sub!

1. Of course, we think that the DD sub will handle the bass frequencies better than any main speakers, since that's it's one and only job (backed up by 1250 watts and a large motor structure to handle the long excursions required for low frequencies). This also frees up amp headroom for the rest of the audio spectrum being played by your mains. Bass below 120 Hz is non-directional (as long as it's low distortion), so there is not a compelling reason to run the mains full range. A better crossover point might be in the 60 - 80 Hz range, to retain the "personality" of the Mahlers yet give the sub enough to do to lighten the load on the Mahlers and to have enough bass contribution to let the EQs flatten the response.

Re the THX mode, ALL the crossovers are handled by the processor, and in that case you'd want to run the DD low pass crossover up to 199 Hz (the slope doesn't really matter at this point).

2. Yes, it is a bit counter-intuitive, but it is working by design. The save settings preserves the settings through a power-off condition (by writing the settings to flash memory that is accessed at power up). The active memory in the unit is changed in real time as you change the settings (i.e. there is no "undo").

3. True. There will be 12 and 15" HGSX models, shipping next month.

4. The chip is a TI 2407 DSP with 32K RAM. The code is TI assembler (we had to get down and dirty to get the video timing right - it is all generated directly form the chip) and the IDE is Code Composer from TI. I doubt we would or could open up the architecture - it is highly integrated and complex. What might happen is that we open up the ability to have folks save off crossover points and other setup data externally then share with others. For example, we're seriously considering offering default settings for various kinds of mains. All this could be done via the serial interface.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

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Velodyne Acoustics
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post #12 of 9632 Old 09-22-2003, 10:46 AM
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Bruce,
Thanks, excellent reply...(assembly language YUCK!)
One FINAL question (I promise):
What is your position on sub driver size versus speed?
There was a post here by UncleEric that basically said it was a non-issue (that post is mysteriously deleted).
IOW do you feel that smaller are faster & larger are deeper thus 2 are needed?
If not why is there is an 18" and a 12" in the Signature 1812.
Thanks for your time.
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post #13 of 9632 Old 09-22-2003, 11:43 AM
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Hey I do low level assembly and happen to like it...but then again I'm a masachist when it comes to programming. :-)

Speaker design is rather an art. There is no such thing as the perfect painting. Likewise there is no such thing as a perfect speaker. It's part science and part personal preference.
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post #14 of 9632 Old 09-22-2003, 06:19 PM
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You MUST be .
It's funny when you need something reliable the first thing you avoid is Windows...even though that's all I use. updates, dll's, patches, vxd's etc.
Assembly is LEAN AND MEAN & stable.
Meanwhile back at the C++ compiler....
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post #15 of 9632 Old 09-22-2003, 10:01 PM
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Buggs,
Sent you a PM.

Bruce

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post #16 of 9632 Old 09-23-2003, 04:05 AM
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Mr. Hall, I own the SPL-1200 and have had to tighten the tiny screws which hold the amp plate on, on two occasions. Both times occured after the sub test via the AVIA disc. I mention this because of the load the sub is given during the test. Anyway, is this a known issue and is there something I can do to the screws (add glue maybe?) to keep them secured? Just so you know, I've tightened them down as far as I could without stripping them. I can't imaging tightening them anymore. Aside from that, I LOVE this sub !

Thanks in advance.
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post #17 of 9632 Old 09-23-2003, 04:23 AM
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Bruce,

Welcome to the fourm!

I've been a very happy HGS18 owner for several years and was currious about changes implemented in the HGS II series. As I understand, there were changes to the amp to reduce the noise level and some changes to the driver as well.

1) Is it possible to rework the amp to a Series II configuration and does the driver also need rework?
2) What benefits does the Series II offer over the original?
3) Does Velodyne offer Series II upgrades?

TIA for your answer.
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post #18 of 9632 Old 09-23-2003, 05:21 PM
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Quote:


What is your position on sub driver size versus speed?
There was a post here by Uncle Eric that basically said it was a non-issue (that post is mysteriously deleted).
IOW do you feel that smaller are faster & larger are deeper thus 2 are needed?
If not why is there is an 18" and a 12" in the Signature 1812.

Cajun,
This is a hotly debated topic but of course, I do have an opinion. In short, I agree with Uncle Eric, but let me explain in my own (numerous) words.

As I see it, the implication that folks make when they say that a 15" or 18" driver is "slower" than a smaller 10" or 12" driver is either that the mass of the driver is such that the motor cannot move its weight with the same precision as that of the smaller driver and/or the cone is flexing enough so that the woofer sounds boomy or muddy. The latter effect will have more impact on the perceived boominess and muddiness of the driver (in that it will produce more distortion) so let's address that first. This of course relates to cone stiffness, and a larger cone made of the same material will bend more and, in the worst case, buckle under the load of long throw bass combined with cabinet pressure. This is overcome with stiffer materials and/or cone reinforcement, and while it is true that a larger cone is subject to less linearity along the cone surface, this effect is minimized with a stiff enough cone. Too often, large drivers are made out of the same materials as smaller drivers and so aren't stiff enough - this is where this perception likely started.

Regarding the driver being heavy to be moved correctly, there are three main forces opposing the motion of the cone structure: the weight of the cone, the pressure inside the box, and the resistance of the suspension (i.e. the surround and spider). It's true that the bigger the cone the more mass there is, but you'd be surprised how much the air pressure in the box and the suspension stiffness affect cone movement too.

All of these factors can be overcome by motor force, otherwise known in speaker land as BL. BL is the combination of magnet force combined with the length of voice coil wire in the gap. The higher the BL, the more motor force is applied to the cone. As a speaker designer, one has to ensure that there is enough BL to overcome the cone mass, suspension stiffness, and box design you are planning on. Not enough BL and your cone doesn't move correctly, and too much and you spent too much on the driver. Of course, one also needs sufficient amp power to drive the motor. We also use a high gain servo to make sure the cone movement is true to the input signal.

An often overlooked spec in comparing speakers is magnet weight. We use 310 ounce (19.3 pound) magnets for the DD-10 and DD-12 and 380 ounce (24 pound) magnets for the DD-15 ad DD-18. Why so big? Because we never want to run short of motor force and we need more BL for the 15 and 18.

Now let's talk efficiency. SPL= sound pressure level = amount of air moved by the speaker cone. Given similar travel distances (all DDs go up to 1.75" peak to peak), the formula is 2 pi r (i.e. cone area) * travel. Some simple math shows that a 15" cone moves a heck of a lot more air than a 10 or a 12. And an 18 more yet. Yet, the additional motor force to move the larger cones is disproportional to how much more air they move - so the larger the cone the more air is moved for less energy.

Lastly, let me comment on the phrases "slow" versus "fast". To us, these terms almost entirely describe the amount of perceived distortion the speaker is producing. That idea is somewhat radical, but we've based our designs on it for almost 20 years with a fair bit of success. We've strived for very low distortion in all our subs, and the DD-15s and DD-18s have no more than the DD-10s and DD-12s. So, we consider them as "fast" as anything going.

Re the 1812 - what we did there is let the 18 handle the lowest bass, since it's efficiency lets the long excursions needed for 40 Hz and below be reproduced with optimal use of BL and amp power. The 12's job is to handle the upper bass frequencies and not spend its headroom trying to recreate 20 Hz. The result is a sub that will play louder than either alone, or even in tandem, because we've optimized the efficiencies of both. This does not mean that a stand-alone 18 cannot play 100 Hz or that a stand alone 12 cannot play 20 Hz - but combined (and crossed over internally with special software) we can squeeze out more clean bass since the efficiency of each driver is optimized.

Sorry for the long post!

Bruce

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post #19 of 9632 Old 09-23-2003, 05:25 PM
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I've been trying to find prices for the new DD line and can't find any. Will you give me the price points for the new subs? Thanks

Look here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=2

Hope this helps,
Bruce

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Velodyne Acoustics
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post #20 of 9632 Old 09-23-2003, 05:29 PM
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Mr. Hall, I own the SPL-1200 and have had to tighten the tiny screws which hold the amp plate on, on two occasions. Both times occured after the sub test via the AVIA disc. I mention this because of the load the sub is given during the test. Anyway, is this a known issue and is there something I can do to the screws (add glue maybe?) to keep them secured? Just so you know, I've tightened them down as far as I could without stripping them. I can't imaging tightening them anymore. Aside from that, I LOVE this sub !

Iguana,

This is a new one to us. First thought is to try some Loctite. If that doesn't work, could you contact the service department at 408-465-2800 or service@velodyne.com?

Thanks
Bruce

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post #21 of 9632 Old 09-23-2003, 05:34 PM
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Quote:


I've been a very happy HGS18 owner for several years and was currious about changes implemented in the HGS II series. As I understand, there were changes to the amp to reduce the noise level and some changes to the driver as well.

1) Is it possible to rework the amp to a Series II configuration and does the driver also need rework?
2) What benefits does the Series II offer over the original?
3) Does Velodyne offer Series II upgrades?

Hi Phil,

The most significant benefit of the Series II over the original series are improved reliability in the electronics and a stiffer cone material in the driver. Depending upon when your unit was manufactured, it may actually be every bit as much of a Series II as one that actually carries that designation on the back. An upgrade of the amplifier and driver to turn a Series I to a Series II is not really practical in most cases since there is not a dramatic audible benefit.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

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post #22 of 9632 Old 09-23-2003, 06:11 PM
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Bruce--

Thanks for your time and expertise--you are an incredibly valuable addition to this forum! I currently own a Velodyne HGS-18, but am concerned that I am not CERTAIN as to what my settings on the sub should be to get the maximum impact from it for my system. My mains are big Polk SDA-2.3's, my centers (front and rear) Polk CS350's, and my surrounds Polk Fx-500i. I'm running a Yamaha RX-V1 with the all of the speakers set to "Large", and with the subwoofer set to "Both", meaning (I believe) that the Low Frequency Effects are sent to both the mains (which can go pretty low) and the HGS-18. My thinking behind doing this is that the Polks can go low enough that I should have the HGS-18 just emphasizing the very bottom end (40Hz and below)--and I THINK that if I set up the Yamaha so that the LFE channel goes exclusively to the HGS-18, I'll lose out on anything from 90Hz to 40Hz with my current settings (my current settings are: High Pass Crossover: 80Hz; Low Pass Crossover: 40Hz; Subsonic Filter: 15Hz; Log Volume Level: about halfway, with electronic volume control to adjust for different sources.) Anyway, I'm not exactly sure that I am setting this up optimally, and I would LOVE to hear your opinion and advice as to how best to set this up. Also, because I'm not in the know, could you explain to me like I'm a three-year-old what the High Pass Crossover, Low Pass Crossover, and Subsonic Filter selections are meant to control and how they interact? (I have a vague understanding, but not enough to feel confident that I am setting this thing up properly...)

Thanks in advance for both your patience in reading this excessively long post and for your help...

Chadvz
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post #23 of 9632 Old 09-23-2003, 08:07 PM
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An upgrade of the amplifier and driver to turn a Series I to a Series II is not really practical in most cases since there is not a dramatic audible benefit.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

Thanks so much for the reply! I always like saving money and really enjoy my HGS18 which was a good investment! It's great to see the innovation continuing with the new DD subs. Good luck to you and your organization.

Phil
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post #24 of 9632 Old 09-24-2003, 02:23 AM
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Bruce -

I really appreciate what you are doing for this forum. Thanks!

I have something of an odd question. I recently purchased a used SPL-1000 subwoofer. When buying, the seller told me something interesting: that the subwoofer was one of the first 100 SPL-1000s made, and used an HGS-10 Series II amp (albeit with SPL-1000 pre-amp and controls) as well as an HGS-10 driver (minus the servo components). Everything else is stock SPL-1000. The seller said he used to work at your company which is why he knew this about the sub, and I had no real reason to doubt him. Now, I didn't really have the resources to audition a variety of subs and so I purchased this without listening to another SPL-1000 or any other quality sub for that matter. I like the sub, but being of a pessimistic nature, this situation has been nagging at me since I bought the unit and I can't help but wonder. Were there SPL-1000 subs made and sold using HGS-10 components? If so, how do they compare to the normal SPL-1000s? Did the better quality components result in any performance differences?

If you would rather not have this posted, I can edit out my post but if possible I would like a response (maybe through PM).

Thanks!
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post #25 of 9632 Old 09-24-2003, 08:59 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by vvv
Bruce,

I have and existing M&KV125 (12 inch 125w amp sealed box). I am moving into a new home with about 6500 cubic feet including all rooms connected to the home theater (archways going to other parts of the house). The actual theater will be 19 feet by 18 feet by 9 feet. Will a DD15 combined with my M&K provide an ample amount of low frequency energy?

Hi VVV, Bruce is traveling today and asked me to reply to your question. Given your room size with the openings and all, I would recommend you go with the DD-18. While the DD-15 with your M&K will do a good job, the added reserve of the DD-18 will be a valuable asset. We're seeing more deep, powerful bass in the newer DVD's and CD's. Nothing matches the DD-18 for deep, clean, powerful bass in a large room.
Thanks for thinking Velodyne.
Curt Chisholm
Velodyne tech and customer support
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post #26 of 9632 Old 09-24-2003, 10:53 AM
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Hi Curt,
Eric from London here.
Can you tell me what the differences will be (if any) between the out going HGS and new HGS-X range.

Best Wishes
Eric

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post #27 of 9632 Old 09-24-2003, 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by uncle eric
Hi Curt,
Eric from London here.
Can you tell me what the differences will be (if any) between the out going HGS and new HGS-X range.

Best Wishes
Eric

Hey Eric,
One of these days- I pick you up driving a Morgan, hit the local pub and down some hard cider.
Meanwhile back at the factory, the HGX's will be the same as the previous HGS's except the cabinet will be black woodgrain instead of gloss. and the remote will be optional. There will be a HGX-12 and 15.
Say HI to Tony B.
Take Care,
Curt
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post #28 of 9632 Old 09-24-2003, 03:09 PM
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Thanks Curt

I take it the black woodgrain would be similar to that of the SPL models?

Looking forward to you guys visiting London one day.

All the best to you
Eric

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post #29 of 9632 Old 09-24-2003, 03:18 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by uncle eric
Thanks Curt

I take it the black woodgrain would be similar to that of the SPL models?

Looking forward to you guys visiting London one day.

All the best to you
Eric

Eric,
Yes, similar to the older SPL finish. The new SPL II has three new finishes; cherry, maple and black gloss.
Curt
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post #30 of 9632 Old 09-24-2003, 07:17 PM
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Bruce or Curt,

I asked this question on this forum once, so I'm pretty sure I already know the answer.

Is there anyway to attach spikes to the HGS15-II without ripping off the current feet or drilling holes in the cabinet? I doubt there is, but I thought I would ask the experts.

Also, is there any issue with leaving the subwoofer on all of the time? I am currently using it in the Auto-On mode, but sometimes during a non-action movie, it just shuts off. Does this mean it has no signal at all to play, or just that the signal doesn't meet some threshold? Maybe I should just crank up the signal sent out from the pre/pro and turn down the volume on the subwoofer a little so it gets a larger signal.

Thanks.
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