Shakers - Simple/Cheap Hookup - Visual Guide - Page 86 - AVS Forum
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post #2551 of 2557 Old 12-08-2014, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Gracepreacher View Post
I randomly found some time this afternoon to try the L/R outputs on my BD player with my 70Hz FMod. I don't believe it was giving me the LFE track, but I couldn't say for certain. I A/B'd it against running it off of the sub out on AVR that would have combined it with a 60Hz internal crossover. All I know is that it sounded a lot lower and better splitting off...and like I said, I'm pretty sure it's because the data was actually the correct stuff for the shakers. It sounded like there were a lot lower sounds this way. With the L/R, there was plenty going on, and I was actually surprised at how decent it sounded, it just sounded better coming off the AVR. It was worth a try to get an independently level controlled, non-Audyssey corrected, shakers-on-movies-only setup. I guess if I switch to a plate amp I can get 2 of those 3 (though I'll still be manually switching the amp on to run the shakers instead of getting auto-on) So much for being a pioneer.

Are you guys able to get things set up at least to where the shakers aren't firing during most music, but still handle the explosions, etc. in a natural way in movie tracks? If I can get to that place, I'll just let the plate amp come on with the rest of the system (auto-on) and waste a little electricity. I cannot image them using that much, especially when they are on but not amplifying any signals. Does the iNuke have auto-on?
I did not anticipate the effect of room correction on the shaker output.

It seems that home theater receivers may need a separate EQ for shakers, or maybe it really makes no substantial difference. Probably depends on the room and subwoofer and placement, what actual correction occurs and how that affects the sound. I suspect it is not that big a factor.

The reason the L/R connection sounds/feels worse is probably because the BR player is doing some dynamic compression or other modification with the downmixing to stereo. This is another reason for using the subwoofer pre output. It only does what you tell it to with the sound mode selector and you are in control of that.

As far as music is concerned, well it seems that sound tracks need some shaker tags in the stream format to allow for turning shakers on and off under direction of the mixing engineers. I know of no way that you can separate out the LFE from music on the fly with a filter. Your brain can do so only because your brain can recognize music so again you need a switch at the listening position, or you need to set the shakers to a reasonable level where they are not obnoxious with music.
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post #2552 of 2557 Old 12-08-2014, 10:03 PM
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Remember the other channels are 85/105 db for reference playback and the sub/ LFE goes to 115 db.

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post #2553 of 2557 Old 12-08-2014, 10:52 PM
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Thread is way to many pages to go thru them all. Trying to keep this as low budget as possible. I have a Denon AVR 2112-CR running my 5.1 surround system and wanted to know can I use this to power 4 aura pro bass shakers as well? If so that would be awesome, if not how what would I need to run another cheap avr to power the bass shakers?

Thanks!
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post #2554 of 2557 Old 12-09-2014, 08:58 AM
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Cheryl, thank you so much for your explanations! That makes complete sense.

Next question, I just read about "group delay" induced from cascading crossovers in another forum, and I do have a slight sense of the timing being off on the bass shakers. Could this either be from doubling of crossovers, or maybe the fact that the AVR is set up with a subwoofer speaker delay setting measured from my MLP to the sub, but the shakers should theoretically be set to zero (because they are right under me)? Has anyone else had issue with timing and solved them? Maybe a compromise by setting the distance in the AVR to half/average between the two? All the more reason to try my sub nearfield!
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post #2555 of 2557 Old 12-09-2014, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gracepreacher View Post
Cheryl, thank you so much for your explanations! That makes complete sense.

Next question, I just read about "group delay" induced from cascading crossovers in another forum, and I do have a slight sense of the timing being off on the bass shakers. Could this either be from doubling of crossovers, or maybe the fact that the AVR is set up with a subwoofer speaker delay setting measured from my MLP to the sub, but the shakers should theoretically be set to zero (because they are right under me)? Has anyone else had issue with timing and solved them? Maybe a compromise by setting the distance in the AVR to half/average between the two? All the more reason to try my sub nearfield!
Group delay refers to the relative time delays of the various components in a signal.

Group delay is important but usually only when multiple drivers (or drivers and resonators like ports or passive radiators) in a single system simultaneously produce the same frequency. Out of phase components might add or cancel in a complicated fashion, altering transients, inducing audible tonal coloration, or smearing the perceived location of the sound.

The amount of delay that a crossover or lowpass induces is only a cycle or so of waveform, just a couple milliseconds at most and almost certainly imperceptible from a shaker, especially since there are no out-of-phase components that could be substantially interacting with the output from the shaker and it is unlikely that your tactile senses could even discern frequency-dependent phase-induced cancellation anyway.

I suspect that what might be occurring is that the shaker, chair frame, seat suspension, and your body form a damped resonator that needs multiple cycles' worth of energy from the amplifier to build up to full shake.

A speaker driver is a low mass cone with a relatively powerful motor driving it and it reaches full output very quickly in response to a 'steady-state' signal such as a tone burst test. In contrast, a shaker/chair is a high mass system with a relatively weak motor driving it. A shaker likely relies upon gradual buildup of resonating energy in the seat frame to compensate for the lack of driver power.

The experience could be a strong function of the shaker, the chair, even the size and shape and density of the person sitting in it might noticeably affect the experience.

It is also possible that the lower frequencies in the sound track are delayed for better realism, or out of sloppiness, who knows?

For more realism, turn up the system volume so you can feel the slam from the subwoofer. Add more/heavier shakers to your chair (yes, the mass of the shaker is an important factor since it is the 'anchor' that the motor pushes against). Make sure that you orient all the shakers on a single chair so they all drive toward your body in unison and get the polarity right when you connect them.

I doubt that nearfield placement of the subwoofer will do much since the room EQ will automatically reduce its output to compensate anyway. Nearfield placement will tend to make the room resonant modes less prominent in the localized sound near the 'sweet spot' but should not affect the actual balance between sub and satellites much. It might also drastically impair the sound in the rest of the room too so before you start embedding electrical conduit in a concrete slab floor try it out first to make sure you like what you hear.

Do not expect a shaker to create a convincingly realistic illusion of trembling Earth. Maybe shakers can enhance realism if done well, but to me, shakers are a gimmick to excite kids on amusement park rides (the only place I have actually felt a shaker). IMO the infrasonic experience of home theater should not come from an amusement park gimmick but rather from a high quality subwoofer driving realistic infrasonic levels and shaking the whole room, not just the chairs.

There is one person on this forum in particular (popalock) who has built two separate subwoofer systems to accomplish exactly that - one has 16x18" subwoofer drivers and the other has 2x24" subwoofer drivers (currently under construction). They can produce powerful output down into the 10Hz range where it can be felt but not heard. People who have experienced the 16x18" subwoofers claim the experience they generate is physically palpable like no other sound system and personally I believe them.

A shaker is just not going to feel like reality IMHO.
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post #2556 of 2557 Old Today, 08:37 AM
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I've had my wireless Buttkicker installed for a couple of months now, and thought I would share some of my observations:

FYI this for a BK wireless advance kit.
  • Most importantly, if you can attach the BK directly to the frame of the seat, DO IT. I initially had it attached to the supplied platform that sits underneath a sofa leg. I thought the tactile feeling it provided was ok, but there's a significant improvement when I then mounted directly to the seat itself. In my case, my BK was bottoming out in extreme LFE sequences (such as the sine wave sweep in Edge of Tomorrow, or the plane crashing in Olympus has fallen, etc.); this no longer happens, at least not at the volume levels I listen to (around ~-14Mv at most). Having said that, when my BK was on the mounting platform, it was on a center leg, underneath the middle seat. Some of the energy was being transmitted to the floor, and my feet were close enough that I could feel the vibrations. I'm guessing this is why some people would attach these things to a riser in a more dedicated/elaborate HT setup.
  • The BK is not a substitute for a good subwoofer. Obviously, you can't replicate the feeling of 18" subs pressurizing the air. But at the end of the day, it gets you closer to experiencing the full range of a movie's soundtrack. For those with more modest setups in the subwoofer department (like me), there's a very real possibility of "overpowering" the sub. It's almost like you get addicted to the tactile sensation to a certain degree, and you end up waiting for the next "Buttkicker" moment, so it's important to set it to a level that creates a balance with the rest of the audio. I found that over several weeks, I gradually lowered the intensity of the BK, after I got over the initial euphoria of the sensation, having tuned it like it was an amusement park ride. Proper integration is important.
  • I've found that the different parts of my sofa vibrates to varying degrees depending on the frequency of the LFE signal. Higher frequency LFE signals vibrates the seating areas more, whereas lower frequencies are felt more on the backrest. In this way, there is a certain sonic quality to the effect. When I mute my entire system except the BK and watch a bass-heavy scene, I can almost imagine what higher frequencies are being played.
Overall, I'm very pleased with the BK, and I'm glad I added it to my setup.
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post #2557 of 2557 Old Today, 02:49 PM
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Nice review. A hpf on the Buttkicker may help and shift the power higher. Some people report no loss of tactile sensation.

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