good bass in small theaters & why I have none... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 39 Old 01-13-2004, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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a bit off topic, but this is a high traffic forum so I'm hoping someone could
help.

Some of the components I have purchased are for the theater that will be
built into my next house, and some are just to tide me over. My speakers,
which will be in the final theater too, are all Vandersteen, with the mains
being 2CE signatures.

The "temp" theater is about 10.5' x 17' with a 2 1/4 ' x 6' closet in one
corner. Carpet on floor over concrete. Minimal insulation in walls, I think.

Speakers firing lengthwise. Now, with the 2CEs in there, it seems there is
no bass. Everything hooked up properly, ie in-phase, so that is not the
problem. Upstairs in my living room they sound fantastic with incredible
bass extension and detail. (they're spec'd with an F3 of about 28z, I
believe). I did my listening with music, not HT stuff, so I know it's now a 5.1
configuration issue, or anything like that. Is it because the 10" sub that's
built in is 'too larger" to couple to the room ? If this is the case, I could
move another pair I have, Thiel CS2.3's, in there -- they have an 8" bass
driver and 8" passive radiator.

Would like some feedback first, though, as all these speakers weigh, like,
100+ lbs EACH and moving them all around can be a royal pain....

What is everyone else doing for low end ? If I used a smaller 'satellite' type
main with a sub (or two) would this yield beter results ? Thinking of a
Vandersteen 2WQ or maybe a Yamaha YST servo controlled one.

Thanks in advance for any and all help...

-Sporty

"Some people never see the light.....till it shines through bullet holes...." - Bruce CockBurn.
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post #2 of 39 Old 01-13-2004, 09:11 PM
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SVS is pretty much the sub of choice around here.

www.svsubwoofers.com
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post #3 of 39 Old 01-13-2004, 09:15 PM
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*cough*

..................

Josh
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post #4 of 39 Old 01-13-2004, 09:21 PM
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get your self a sub, HSU Research link above and sponsored by this site makes a fantastic sub that has got some excellent reviews. You can step into one for about 800. If your an audiophile which I gather from your main speakers you may be more inclined to get Velodyne which frankly is some of the best sub product out there. I typically use when watching movies since I find it hard to get that low end punch from a main set of speakers.
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post #5 of 39 Old 01-13-2004, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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...but I still don't understand why my mains seem to have NO bass in
this application. Their low end performance is more extended than the
majority of subs on the market -- they have an F3 of, like, 28Hz for
heaven's sake !

If a sub is what I need I would likely go for a Vandersteen -- I think theirs
start at the level where the velodynes would end. I just don't see how
they'd add that much at present. When the 2CEs were in my living room
they had PLENTY of low end, both on music and when used for 5.1 movie
soundtracks.

....Sporty....

"Some people never see the light.....till it shines through bullet holes...." - Bruce CockBurn.
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post #6 of 39 Old 01-13-2004, 09:31 PM
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whats your basement room made of, floors, walls etc... what the difference in size of these two rooms?
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post #7 of 39 Old 01-13-2004, 09:32 PM
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how big was the room that you originally had them in? Is there a lot of sound dampering material in the new room (ala heavier carpet or more stuff on the walls)?

Josh
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post #8 of 39 Old 01-13-2004, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
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...thanks for the replies so far....

original room was (is) an "open concept" great room attached to the
kitchen. I'd say 21'x25' with 8 ' ceiling at sides and 12' in center (cathedral
type). basement ht is 10.5' x 17' with a 8' ceiling.

same carpet upstairs (old) and down (temp HT), but wood under upstairs
one and concrete below downstairs one. same drywall in both rooms.

The downstairs room is actually quite "live". In fact, i went shopping for a
carpet tonite to hang on the wall as a 'decoration' that will dampen the
reflections a bit. will add a bit more furniture to the room, but not much.
I htought the reflections and 'echo' the room has would mainly affect the
midrange and high end frequencies...


-Sporty

"Some people never see the light.....till it shines through bullet holes...." - Bruce CockBurn.
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post #9 of 39 Old 01-13-2004, 09:41 PM
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have you picked up an spl meter to test the response in that room. If your getting plenty of bass upstairs and with a room easily three times the size in volume something is clearly wrong. You said they were in phase are you positive the wires are hooked up correctly? One more thing do you happen to have dedicated 20 amps runnning into your theatre room? I am just throwing ideas out here but maybe you are running into surge issues and your A/V Amp etc is soft clipping or retarding power to prevent problems? That might be a little far fetched. Oh BTW you can pick an SPL meter at your favorite radio shack for about 40.
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post #10 of 39 Old 01-13-2004, 09:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm absolutely 150% sure everything was in-phase...ie all wires hooked up
correctly.

...the amplification I listened to in the downstairs temp HT is FAR superior
to what is (was) upstairs. My 5.1/HT amp is Sony STR-925. My 'stereo'
gear is Adcom 555II's with a 565 pre-amp. I did a 'pre-listen' downstairs
with the Adcom gear and Vandersteens. Funny thing is, the small monitors
I have down there (7" woofer, F3=36HZ) have more low end extension
than the Vandy's in that room -- that is why I started wondering if it was a
"room coupling" issue....and if the Thiels would better 'match' the room....

"Some people never see the light.....till it shines through bullet holes...." - Bruce CockBurn.
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post #11 of 39 Old 01-13-2004, 10:19 PM
 
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Quote:
same carpet upstairs (old) and down (temp HT), but wood under upstairs one and concrete below downstairs one.
A wooden floor really makes a huge difference in the transmission of bass.
I have my HT in a basement which has a carpet over a concrete floor. The bass has very little to vibrate except our chairs and bodies. The walls are concrete (covered in drywall) up to four feet from the floor (seven feet total height) so there is not much flex to help the bass. It is a rather trapezoidal room but serves the sound fairly well. I need more bass but one thing I do like about the space is the clarity and good transient response I get there. But I want more low digit Hz.
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post #12 of 39 Old 01-13-2004, 11:17 PM
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Do You have Your 5.1 amp in its right setup?
In my (Yamaha RX595) I must tell the amp what speakers I have. For ex if sub is activated then are all bass below some Hz cut of from the mains. If I want the mains have bass also I must change some variables in the amp setup. And I must also set what type of mains and surround that are connected, "small" or "large" speaker. If "small" are selected then are the bass mixed into the sub channel instead.

/gabbe
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post #13 of 39 Old 01-14-2004, 05:36 AM
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Bass frequencies are the most troublesome when dealing with a room. If you really want to get an understanding, go read some of the white papers here: Harmon White Paper Index

Great source of info. I suspect your lack of bass is directly related to the location of both your listening position and the speaker position.

RG
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post #14 of 39 Old 01-14-2004, 06:41 AM
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Speaker forum is a better place to ask.

I suspect it has something to do with standing wave (medium size rectangular room), but I am no expert.
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post #15 of 39 Old 01-14-2004, 07:30 AM
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Check out the home theater construction forum where bass issues are discussed to great lengths. The Harmon white paper mentioned is also very good. Basically, if all your settings and connections are ok, then your problem is with the room construction and/or speaker placement. Don't be surprised as I too noticed massive differences when moving my HT from upstairs to downstairs as well as in different rooms of downstairs. With some research and room mods you will get what you are looking for, and IMO the HT builder forum here at AVS is the best source you will find. There are some extremely knowledgeable professional HT design folks that frequent there and will likely already have addressed everything you need to know. Good luck, and don't give up.

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post #16 of 39 Old 01-14-2004, 08:09 AM
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I'll have to move this to the speaker forum. You could try the HT Builder forum as well.

Good luck!

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post #17 of 39 Old 01-14-2004, 08:17 AM
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I am about 48 hours away from setting up my basement which is built in the same manner as yours. I have a 16x15 room which is not good to begin with because it's virtually a cube, 9 foot ceilings, 6 inch thick 9 foot tall concrete walls and concrete floor. Everything is dry walled and carpeted and other than a tray ceiling and some minor pieces of furniture there is nothing else in there to break up the music. I may find myself building some wall columns if the sounds don't come out right.

Setup is extremely important in rooms with open back walls. The first thing you might consider is speaker placement. Find another person, have them sit in the most optimal viewing position and have them hold a piece of string to their nose. Extend that string out to the center channel and then hold it tight and walk left and right to your front main speakers. Where that string ends is where the speakers should sit. From there you are going to want angle them so they fire past your head in sitting position to back corner. You want thier signals to cross behind you not in front of you. That is typically how you begin a HT setup, there are more technical ways to do it along with software that can pretty much tell you where to put anything but for DIY'ers this should be sufficient. You will still want to get an SPL meter and probably the Avia HT setup DVD that has all the test tones you'll need to make sure you are getting the frequency reponse you need from each speaker. These are all very inexpensive ways to help, I think.

Good luck
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post #18 of 39 Old 01-14-2004, 08:35 AM
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Stupid question here to rule out......

Did you make sure on the receiver you are using that the Subwoofer out is turned off since you are not using a subwoofer, but mains for speakers and as a subwoofer?
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post #19 of 39 Old 01-14-2004, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by gabbe
Do You have Your 5.1 amp in its right setup?
In my (Yamaha RX595) I must tell the amp what speakers I have. For ex if sub is activated then are all bass below some Hz cut of from the mains. If I want the mains have bass also I must change some variables in the amp setup. And I must also set what type of mains and surround that are connected, "small" or "large" speaker. If "small" are selected then are the bass mixed into the sub channel instead.
I don't think this is the issue, since I did my 'trial' listening with my Adcom
2 channel stuff, not the HT setup.

NOW, I jsut thought of this. The Vandersteen 2CEsig's have a rear firing
10" sub built in. Could this be the culprit ? I am thinking there might be
some out-of-phase reflection issues in such a small room. Admitedly I didn't
try much in the way of placement, and now these big beasts are back
upstairs.

Not that I'm lazy, but I was just hoping to get a better understanding of
what could be causing this problem before I carted 4 100lb speakers (the
thiels and vandys) down to the basement for a comparison and problem
solving session...

Thanks again for all the input so far...

-Sporty

"Some people never see the light.....till it shines through bullet holes...." - Bruce CockBurn.
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post #20 of 39 Old 01-14-2004, 08:52 AM
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I will be honest with you. I don't think the room has much to do with it. If you are missing the bass, something is wrong with your speakers/receiver setup.

Did you try changing your speakers to only the B channel and running them just in stereo mode? This should rule out any problems with your speakers and keep it to just the receiver.

Treatments and placement will enhance, but not replace missing bass. I have a small room in a Basement with extremely powerful bass coming from my mains. They have 12" woofers as opposed to your 10" woofers, but that should have little difference in missing that much bass.
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post #21 of 39 Old 01-14-2004, 09:41 AM
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Sporty,

To be honest, the room could have everything to do with it!

It is likely that the combination of speaker position and listening position are both exacerbating the room's modal nulls (bass frequency cancellations). A good way to test this theory is to listen to music that produced good bass upstairs and walk around the room to see if there are any positions (including up against the walls) where the bass approaches what you heard upstairs.

If you do find a location that approximates the upstairs bass, then you need to spend some time positioning speakers and listening couch for best bass.

How far out from the front and side walls were the front speakers positioned?

How far out from the rear wall was the listening couch positioned? How far from the front speakers?

BruceD


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post #22 of 39 Old 01-14-2004, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Bruce,

The room is 17' 3.5" long, 10' 7.25" wide and 7'7" high. There is a 6'x2'4"
closed in closet in one corner.

One speaker was 2' from the wall behind it and 2' in from the side wall.
The other was 2' from the front wall and 2.5' from the side wall - this
speaker was on the same side that has the closet on it, so it was moved
inwards a bit otherwise it fired directly across the room at the closet on the
back wall. Entrance is on the (10' 7.25") back wall, dead center. Closet is
just to the left when you enter. Measurements are to the center of the
speaker enclosure.

Seating position(s) are 6.5' from the rear wall, beside each other.

-Brian

"Some people never see the light.....till it shines through bullet holes...." - Bruce CockBurn.
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post #23 of 39 Old 01-14-2004, 10:16 AM
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Sounds like the reflections in your room have created a large bass null.

Its the room!!! Try some placement experimentation using an SPL meter, but due to the squareness of the room, it may not make a difference.
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post #24 of 39 Old 01-14-2004, 11:01 AM
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My room measurements are 10'6 inches wide and about 16' feet long in a basement with paneling thats wall-papered over with a door right next to the couch. I don't have any problems with bass. You can hear the bass through out the whole house with the mains only if you want. We are not there to hear it so it is hard to tell... Just how much bass are you missing? 5% or 50%? That makes a big difference in answering the question.
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post #25 of 39 Old 01-14-2004, 11:28 AM
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I took a closer look at your speakers and compared them with mine. My 12" woofers are front facing while your 10" ones are rear facing. I wonder in your situation you need to put your speakers like an inch or two against the wall (like subwoofers) as opposed to mine where they say about 2 feet away from the walls. That might make some improvement. Let us know if that is possible.....


Good Luck.
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post #26 of 39 Old 01-14-2004, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by edwardr132
My room measurements are 10'6 inches wide and about 16' feet long in a basement with paneling thats wall-papered over with a door right next to the couch. I don't have any problems with bass. You can hear the bass through out the whole house with the mains only if you want. We are not there to hear it so it is hard to tell... Just how much bass are you missing? 5% or 50%? That makes a big difference in answering the question.
Hi Edward,

Thanks for the post. It is as if I am missing 50+% of the low-end.

Now, I also like (and can appreciate) a nice "tight" low-end, so it's not like
I'm looking for a boom machine or anything either...

Music just doesn't sound the same -- and if it doesn't then there is no way
HT material will sound halfway decent either...

-Sporty

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post #27 of 39 Old 01-14-2004, 03:51 PM
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I can't offer any useful suggestions, but wanted to comment that rigid (i.e., concrete) walls and floors are notorious for caused boomy bass, not reducing it. The flexibility of walls and floors helps absorb some of the unwanted relections. It does sound to me like there's some technical problem with the hookup, but you sound like a knowledgeable person whose has checked all that out. I would be interested in the results if you set up the Vandersteens with the exact same electronics you had when they were upstairs.

For what it's worth, I had pretty good bass in my theater, but decided to add a pair of Vandersteen subs using the Vandersteen hookup strategy after reading a strong recommendation for them in The Audio Perfectionist. The results were impressive and I'm happy I spent the money. The low end doesn't attract your attention, but the instruments that are supposed to go low are very solid without distortion.

Good luck!

Bill Bunker
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post #28 of 39 Old 01-15-2004, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sodbuster
For what it's worth, I had pretty good bass in my theater, but decided to add a pair of Vandersteen subs using the Vandersteen hookup strategy after reading a strong recommendation for them in The Audio Perfectionist. The results were impressive and I'm happy I spent the money. The low end doesn't attract your attention, but the instruments that are supposed to go low are very solid without distortion.

Good luck!
It has me scratching my head too...hence the original posting here.

Which Vandy sub(s) are you using ? How are they hooked up ? I have
been thinking about going this route more and more, and am looking for
feedback.

The 2CEs are also WIDE -like 16" wide- so even if I get the bass problem
sorted out they may still be too wide for a 10' 7" wide room. Using my Thiel
CS2.3's that are only 11" wide, or so, may be a better option until the '
new theater is built. On the other hand, the Vandys are almost completely
black, whereas the Thiels are Birdseye Maple- the all black speaker will
look much better in the theater and be better for not reflecting light, I am
sure. It would also let me keep the Thiels for 'music', where I (sorry
Richard) like them far more than the Vandys now.

-Sporty

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post #29 of 39 Old 01-15-2004, 06:58 AM
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Crazy thing to rule out.....

Maybe one of your woofers aren't working? That would equal 50%. Have you tested them to make sure you are getting output out of both 10 inch woofers?

Did you try my idea of running them in stereo and bypassing the 5.1 out mode and see if that improved the bass in them? If so, did it help? That would focus the issue on the speakers themselves instead of the receiver.

Good Luck!
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post #30 of 39 Old 01-15-2004, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Edward,

All audio tests were run using a 2 channel Adcom setup, not a 5.1 capable
system.

All 4 woofers (2x8", 2x10" subs) are working fine.

There is a dramatic sound difference between 2 rooms, but all drivers were
working in both rooms.

-Sporty

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