Acoustic Visions MRS-10 reviewed on Secrets - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 11-28-2004, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Good review, plently graphics for the objectivity oriented guys, pluse good subjective, step by step analysis of its performance with both movies and music. You can read it here . Looks like another sub to consider in the less than $500 category.

WTG Kyle!

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post #2 of 16 Old 11-28-2004, 08:43 AM
 
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Ed has been "polishing" his review technique for months, and has settled on a consistent methodology for subwoofers ... His review of the SVS PB10 -ISD and PB12-Ultra/2 follow the same methods, and he will be re-measuring the Hsu STF-3 and SVS PB12-ISD in the spring.

You can look for more from him as time goes on ... he may be the next Tom Nousaine ...
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post #3 of 16 Old 11-28-2004, 10:14 AM
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There is a discussion thread going at HTF, too.

Thanks for the props, Craig - but I wouldn't go that far. Nousaine has a really nice test rig and unparalleled experience with low frequency acoustics; they don't call him "The Ace Of Bass" for nothing.

I'm just trying to add some objectivity into the process and let people compare products under the same conditions every time - takes some of the guess work out, but the buyer's ears are always still the final judge.

I'll be adding more tests as time goes on - power compression has been finalized, and I'm happy with the results (reproducible and consistent). And I'll add some MLS based stuff if I can get ETF-5 working properly with my sound card.

Regards,

Ed

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post #4 of 16 Old 11-28-2004, 10:20 AM
 
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Look at how far your reviews have come in a year .... and I won't quit pestering you regarding more reviews ... :)

Your outdoor methodology already eclipses Nousaine's ... plus he seems pretty tied up in car audio... we need YOU to fill in the gaps ...
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post #5 of 16 Old 11-28-2004, 11:59 AM
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Thanks for the kind words Chronosphere. Yes, I'm quite happy with the performance the MRS10 provides.
Last night for the fun of it as I was testing two units before packaging, I hooked them up in a stereo pair and ran them along with my mains in 2 channel stereo. I ended up sitting there for an hour listening to music before I forced myself to continue boxing them up :)
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post #6 of 16 Old 11-28-2004, 04:53 PM
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I ended up sitting there for an hour listening to music before I forced myself to continue boxing them up
The MRS-10 is involving with music. It blends nicely and has good coherence with the mains after just a bit of fiddling with the variable phase. Not all subs can make the speaks sound like a single full range unit, but the MRS-10 pulls it off nicely.

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post #7 of 16 Old 11-28-2004, 08:32 PM
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Kyle,

Stereo subs...just the app I thought of when reading the review.

Actually, the more I think of it, 5 MRS-10s (1 for each channel), all channels set to 'Large', and an Everest for dedicated LFE.

Sahweeeeeet!

Congrats...a beauty of a sub from a quality builder.

Ed,

I'm with Craig on this one. What's a TN? I read your reviews cover to cover. Can't say the same for the other guy.

Keep up the excellent work...us inquiring minds hafta know. :cool:
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post #8 of 16 Old 11-29-2004, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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As Im the owner of a BIG Tempest "sonosub" I know the appeal of smaller subs, and the finish is really beautiful. I wonder if there will be comparisions against the $400 SVS on the forum, would be interesting.

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post #9 of 16 Old 11-29-2004, 08:11 PM
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I have appreciated reading Ed's results for the various tests he's done; they provide much more useful information than the comments one often reads in other reviews: "hits hard", "goes low"... without numbers to back up statements like these there is no way to extract useful information from them.

I have only one suggestion for Ed, and it's born of a somewhat lazy nature: could the frequency response graphs be made with a consistent y-axis scale? Ed, I've seen you use 5 dB, 10 dB, and 20 dB divisions for the major scale on the y-axis, and while it is of course absolutely your prerogative to use whatever presentation scheme you wish, it makes it easier for guys like me if the scale is uniform from review to review so I can just put up the graphs on the screen and get an immediate idea of the relative flatness of each sub's response curve.

Thanks; the work is impressive and appreciated!
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post #10 of 16 Old 11-30-2004, 02:54 AM
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I have only one suggestion for Ed, and it's born of a somewhat lazy nature: could the frequency response graphs be made with a consistent y-axis scale? Ed, I've seen you use 5 dB, 10 dB, and 20 dB divisions for the major scale on the y-axis, and while it is of course absolutely your prerogative to use whatever presentation scheme you wish, it makes it easier for guys like me if the scale is uniform from review to review so I can just put up the graphs on the screen and get an immediate idea of the relative flatness of each sub's response curve.
Selecting a consistent scale is tough because of the vastly different FRs subs will exhibit in a ground plane test environment.

The MRS-10 rolls off pretty quickly quasi-anechoic, and in order to show 20 Hz and the also the peak frequency of the curve, I had to adjust the vertical scale.

For indoors, we all know how bad the FR can look (from room acoustics) if the vertical scale is sufficiently expanded. I show the indoor curve on a more compressed scale to give a "general" idea of the low frequency extension and overall curve shape in a typical living space because I think the human ear is more sensitive to broader changes in the FR curve than to narrow peak or valleys. Also, the indoor curve is an average of three test locations - again to provide a general idea of what most prospective buyers can expect in a mid-size room.

I have a Rane PE-17 which I disable for all indoor product testing, but suffice it to say I could make the indoor FR curves look substantially flatter/better if I wanted to. But the typical enthusiast lacks a PEQ and the capability to accurately measure its effect, so I try to keep things reasonable with the consumer in mind.

But thanks for the suggestion, and I will be as consistent as possible with respect to vertical axis while still satisfying these other goals.

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I wonder if there will be comparisions against the $400 SVS on the forum, would be interesting.
While comparisons to like-priced products are only natural, these two subs are really quite different in design (very small sealed vs. larger vented). If you want to see how the two drivers actually compare, you would need to install them in the same type/size of enclosure.

It is unlikely SVS will introduce a small sealed unit for its excellent 10" woofer, but Acoustic Visions may in the future offer a larger vented application for the 10" XBL^2 driver in the MRS-10. That would be a much better product to directly compare against the PB10-ISD from a pure performance standpoint.

Regards,

Ed

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post #11 of 16 Old 11-30-2004, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ed Mullen
Selecting a consistent scale is tough because of the vastly different FRs subs will exhibit in a ground plane test environment.

The MRS-10 rolls off pretty quickly quasi-anechoic, and in order to show 20 Hz and the also the peak frequency of the curve, I had to adjust the vertical scale.
...
But thanks for the suggestion, and I will be as consistent as possible with respect to vertical axis while still satisfying these other goals.
Thanks, Ed. I am appreciative of the fact that you are open to "user input"!

The reason I brought this up was just that I did a quick comparison between your measured FR's of the Hsu STF-2 and the MRS-10. While the STF-2 has a much flatter graph anyway, the MRS-10's looks quite rounded by contrast... the vertical scale is different by a factor of 6 (90 to 120 for the MRS-10, 0 to 180 for the STF-2). If the scales were identical, the MRS-10's graph would seem much flatter than it is represented here.

However, I do understand that you are trying to communicate something about the reviewed item itself, and not necessarily how it compares to other items.

Again, good job!
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post #12 of 16 Old 11-30-2004, 06:23 PM
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It's not really the overall dB range that matters so much as the incremental scale.

The PB10-ISD and the MRS-10 FR graphs both use a 1 dB line increment. The STF-2 uses a 4 dB increment. So really it would be the STF-2's graph that would look "less flat" if I applied the same 1 dB increment scale to it.

FWIW, Mark Seaton (of Sound Physics and Servo-Drive fame) was the first to suggest making the vertical scale consistent for the outdoor measurements. And I have done that with the PB10-ISD and the MRS-10, and will likely retain the 1 dB increment scale for future reviews.

I also adopted the practice of listing the FR on the graph. The PB10-ISD was so exceptionally flat, that I listed it as +/- 1 dB. For the MRS-10, I used the more widely accepted industry standard of +/- 3 dB.

Quote:
However, I do understand that you are trying to communicate something about the reviewed item itself, and not necessarily how it compares to other items.
For me, both are goals. The whole point of outdoor testing is to allow a fair and valid comparison to all products tested. So the comparison aspect actually is one of my primary objectives in the review process. And I think that's what people like the most about the data - apples to apples.

Much like the Nousaine database - always in the same room, always at 2 meters with the mic in the same spot. While his room will bias the results, it does so for all products tested, and hence becomes a non-variable in the comparison process.

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post #13 of 16 Old 11-30-2004, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ed Mullen
It's not really the overall dB range that matters so much as the incremental scale.

The PB10-ISD and the MRS-10 FR graphs both use a 1 dB line increment. The STF-2 uses a 4 dB increment. So really it would be the STF-2's graph that would look "less flat" if I applied the same 1 dB increment scale to it.
I understand and agree completely! Or, if you look at it conversely, the PB10/MRS10 graphs would look "more flat" if they had the 4 db increment scale applied. Of course, the PB10 is so flat , that it would likely make little subjective difference in a glance at its graph.
Quote:
For me, both are goals. The whole point of outdoor testing is to allow a fair and valid comparison to all products tested. So the comparison aspect actually is one of my primary objectives in the review process. And I think that's what people like the most about the data - apples to apples.

Much like the Nousaine database - always in the same room, always at 2 meters with the mic in the same spot. While his room will bias the results, it does so for all products tested, and hence becomes a non-variable in the comparison process.
Actually, I can see that I probably misunderstood your previous message. The consistent methodology you use is, of course, one of the reasons that your work is so appreciated by the audio community (me included). There are a few other subs that I'd like to see you test, for example, the sealed LT'ed subs that Brian Bunge is manufacturing out of Rutledge Audio, and (eventually) the servo sub I'm thinking I'd like to build one day from the components out of Rythmik Audio.

(I suppose I could get a hold of some test equipment and then become the Ed Mullen wannabe... nah.) >wink!<

Thanks again for taking the time to communicate!
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post #14 of 16 Old 12-01-2004, 04:22 AM
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Actually, I can see that I probably misunderstood your previous message. The consistent methodology you use is, of course, one of the reasons that your work is so appreciated by the audio community (me included). There are a few other subs that I'd like to see you test, for example, the sealed LT'ed subs that Brian Bunge is manufacturing out of Rutledge Audio, and (eventually) the servo sub I'm thinking I'd like to build one day from the components out of Rythmik Audio.
We've got a few subs in the works.....stay tuned.

Look for more Acoustic Visions subs to be tested in the future: The Pinnacle series of Tumult based subs is undergoing a redesign, and predictably the next two Music Rendition Series subwoofers from Kyle will be sealed 12" and 15" units. Maybe Kyle can comment more......

A sealed Tumult with an LT would be a cool addition. I think the unit Nousaine recently tested may have been hamstrung down low by HPF in the amp.....check with Jack Gilvey on that.

Quote:
(I suppose I could get a hold of some test equipment and then become the Ed Mullen wannabe... nah.) >wink!<
I'm just a Yates-Nousaine-Toole-Keele-Johnson wannabe anyway, so join in. The more the merrier. ;)

Ed

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post #15 of 16 Old 12-01-2004, 07:10 AM
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Look for more Acoustic Visions subs to be tested in the future: The Pinnacle series of Tumult based subs is undergoing a redesign, and predictably the next two Music Rendition Series subwoofers from Kyle will be sealed 12" and 15" units. Maybe Kyle can comment more......
Yep, there's lots in the works for 2005 so keep an eye out for the changes. The next two models in the MRS series are in development and should be released in the first quarter of '05.

Also, for those looking at the MRS10 for Christmas, the price has been lowered to $419 for 1 week only.
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post #16 of 16 Old 12-01-2004, 12:28 PM
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Any speculation on how the MRS10 and Rocket UFW-10 would compare?

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