One 12 inch or Two 10 inch subs? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 11-28-2004, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm searching for bang for the buck opinions.
My room is smallish - about 10ft by 14ft by7'4'' high -
and will be acoustically treated so:
I would like to add a sub to my existing setup but wonder if going with 2 smaller subs would be better than one larger. I plan on sealed boxes with an even mix of music and theatre use.

These would be seperate units BTW.

Any thoughts?

ted
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post #2 of 31 Old 11-28-2004, 12:42 PM
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Depends on the subs.

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post #3 of 31 Old 11-28-2004, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by DMF
Depends on the subs.
:D

Would like to go the DIY route - the joy of chemicals and sawdust.
Thought of the SHIVA or RAVA from Adire Audio for the 12 incher or maybe the Daytons from Parts Express for the 10's.

ted
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post #4 of 31 Old 11-28-2004, 02:02 PM
 
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I wouldn't recommend a DIY unless you are very experineced in acoustical engineering.

You should probably just call Ron at SVS and ask him. They are really helpful in recommending the best options given your room, listening preferences and budget. You can call him at: (703) 845-1472
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post #5 of 31 Old 11-28-2004, 03:05 PM
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Not totally DIY, but a known design, maybe?

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post #6 of 31 Old 11-28-2004, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Artisn
I wouldn't recommend a DIY unless you are very experineced in acoustical engineering.

You should probably just call Ron at SVS and ask him. They are really helpful in recommending the best options given your room, listening preferences and budget. You can call him at: (703) 845-1472
Got lots of DIY Electronics and Woodworking experience under my belt - will be from a suggested design from either source so I'm not too worried but thanks for your concern .

ted
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post #7 of 31 Old 11-28-2004, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by DMF
Not totally DIY, but a known design, maybe?
Yep,
The 10 inchers would simply copy Vance Dickinsons existing design and the 12 incher would be from ADIRE Audio. No big woof (sorry for the half a pun), as these are closed boxed designs - no port tuning necessary. So the only real DIY is cutting and glueing basically.;)

I'm just soliciting opinions on whether there is any real difference for BASS from a point source or sharing it between 2 speakers. I probably would only use both for HT stuff and a single unit for music.

ted
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post #8 of 31 Old 11-28-2004, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Artisn
You should probably just call Ron at SVS and ask him. They are really helpful in recommending the best options given your room, listening preferences and budget. You can call him at: (703) 845-1472
Thanks for this suggestion. BTW where in the Caribbean are you? I was born in St. Vincent but that was a heck of a long time ago.:D

ted
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post #9 of 31 Old 11-28-2004, 05:48 PM
 
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I have property in Cayman, Bahamas and South Miami. I'm usually in the Caymans. Never been to St. Vincent, heard it's nice.

Good luck with your sub. I guess they meant a "kit" for a DIY. No problem there, sounds like it could be fun if you enjoy doing that kind of thing. I know I do, when I have the time.

Check out MY DIY job on some surrounds (no kit here!) :p

http://www.caymanactivityguide.com/new_page_3.htm
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post #10 of 31 Old 11-30-2004, 07:19 AM
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tvted,

there are different opinions on the single/dual sub debate. Some say it aids in integration, some say it makes integration more difficult. I honestly don't know. It seems to me like plenty of people have had success both ways.

Which woofer were you looking at from Adire? The DPL12 has a nice response in a sealed box.
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post #11 of 31 Old 11-30-2004, 09:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by jjdche
tvted,

there are different opinions on the single/dual sub debate. Some say it aids in integration, some say it makes integration more difficult. I honestly don't know. It seems to me like plenty of people have had success both ways.



Dual subs sounds better, but integration is much more difficult to get right!

--Bill
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post #12 of 31 Old 11-30-2004, 11:28 AM
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Two subs can be moved around to help you get the best sound at the listening area. Does anybody know for sure if a continuously adjustable phase control on a single sub can accomplish similar results?

Powerwise, two subs are probably overkill for the small room.
A single 12" sub that goes to 20Hz is way better than two 10" subs that start to fall off at 30Hz and probably is cheaper too.
Your small room size might be the biggest challenge in making low frequencies sound right. I used to have a link for room analysis software (loudspeakers101.com), but it's dead.
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post #13 of 31 Old 11-30-2004, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tvted
I'm searching for bang for the buck opinions.
My room is smallish - about 10ft by 14ft by7'4'' high -
and will be acoustically treated so:
I would like to add a sub to my existing setup but wonder if going with 2 smaller subs would be better than one larger. I plan on sealed boxes with an even mix of music and theatre use.

These would be seperate units BTW.

Any thoughts?

ted
I say one good small sub.

Kipp
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post #14 of 31 Old 11-30-2004, 10:51 PM
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Two 10's can work out very nicely.
LL
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post #15 of 31 Old 12-01-2004, 05:37 AM
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I have the same question (two 10" or one 12")

The specifics of what I am looking at are probably one of the following: (based on previous research)
- two STF-2
- one STF-3
- one PB-12

(Editorial comment: I am not trying to start an SVS vs HSU debate, I just want to discuss the benefits of 2 slightly smaller vs 1 larger sub)
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post #16 of 31 Old 12-01-2004, 06:52 AM
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With two 10's stacked and corner loaded, you may be able to achieve greater db's, with less THD, than driving a single 12. HOWEVER, it is very difficult to make blanket statements about 10's vs. 12's without getting into specific models, since obviously, all speakers of the same size are not created equal.

So, depending on the specific drivers and amplifiers, 2 10's may or may not be greater than a single 12.

Regards,
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post #17 of 31 Old 12-01-2004, 10:45 AM
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On that theme. I have one HSU STF-2. What would be the difference SW wise and output wise between two STF-2's or one STF-3, 25Hz and up? This is in a large room.


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post #18 of 31 Old 12-01-2004, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by hardwired
On that theme. I have one HSU STF-2. What would be the difference SW wise and output wise between two STF-2's or one STF-3, 25Hz and up? This is in a large room.
Ask Hsu directly, they will be able to answer your question. Let us know what they say.

Regards,
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post #19 of 31 Old 12-01-2004, 02:52 PM
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I asked Dr Hsu about two STF-2s compared to one STF-3, and got a very short response back: "go for it".

I have asked for more detail on the advantages/disadvantages of these two different setups.
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post #20 of 31 Old 12-01-2004, 03:03 PM
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Hello,

I recently went from dual Vtf-2s to a single Stf-3.I had the 2 subs co located in a corner.To me the dual 10 inch subs were out gunned by the one 12 inch.With the Stf-3 there seems to be more of a impact in my music.I really don't know how to explain it as to how and why but if you get a chance to listen to the difference between the two you will definitely hear it.If someone were to ask me what I would recommend I would certainly tell them to go with the 1 12 inch,at least in the HSU line of subs.

Rick
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post #21 of 31 Old 12-01-2004, 03:14 PM
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I just purchased the SVS PB12 Ultra/2 which has 2 12 inch woofers and it can go down to 16 Hz with 2 plugs inserted. I am loving it (I got it on Monday) and if you can afford it, it is an incredible piece of air moving equipment. I am listening to Meatloaf's "Bat Out Of Hell" and it sounds great. I have one plug in it and have it tuned to 20 Hz and it also has PEQ which is good to make up for room acoustical deficiencies. I am going to calibrate it tomorrow and do a bunch of demos to check it out but for now it sounds FANTASTIC.
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post #22 of 31 Old 12-02-2004, 07:06 AM
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While I use one 12" sub, two 10" models might be an option if your front speakers don't go below 80hz. That way the sub's could help the front speakers and still keep the upper range of the sub frequencies localized to each of the front speakers. However, you will not get the 20-25hz thump that you might want to hear in some movies. For music the two 10's would be a better choice.

Tom
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post #23 of 31 Old 12-02-2004, 09:58 AM
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Honestly,

I think the best sound would be 1 10", and 1 12" powered sub.

I believe that having a larger range of drivers will get you the most dynamic sound, rather then 2 10" for example.

In a car setup, I would recommend 10" because it is more musical then a 12". So in responce to a previous post where he was surprized at the new sounds from a 12 this is correct, its just a different type of sound then a 10 can produce. In a car, get 10" for clean tight, accurate bass for music. For home theater, I recommend having atleast a 12". If you want two subs don't add another 12", get the 10" like mentioned above.
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post #24 of 31 Old 12-02-2004, 08:01 PM
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I disagree.

It's much easier to properly integrate two identical subs than two different subs. Additionally, it is simply a myth that smaller drivers are more musical. If you don't need the high frequency response (and you hardly ever do from a sub), then you don't need a smaller driver. They aren't faster, more musical, smoother, or anything of the sort. In fact, in most cases they produce more distortion for a given output level than a larger driver of similar design. Better to have small stoke and large surface area for a given displacement than small surface and large stroke. Of course, large surface and large stroke never hurts either. ;)

As for the original question, I'd have to take a closer look at the two particular drivers (10" and 12") in question to be able to give non-ambiguous advice. However, in general (and this is the ambiguous advice), two subs might be a bit more difficult to setup properly but are more flexible in their ability to reduce modal peaks and nulls, and are also more flexible in their ability to stack for more SPL or separate for stereo imaging support in the upper-midbass region if your mains need it.

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post #25 of 31 Old 12-03-2004, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks gents have'nt been this way - thought the thread was dying - boy I'm surprised at all the opinions - shouldn't be though if you didn't have opinions you would be listening to music or watching movies instead of logging in here. :D

I am swaying toward the single 12 (for now) as I want that low down thump - plus the room size I gave is only after curtains are drawn and baffling is in place - it is in fact about twice what I gave originally which was 10x14.

I'm leaning to the Adire Shiva closed box off the shelf design. I love the taste of sawdust in the morning not to mention the interesting perspective that oil based paints can provide.;)

thanks once again for the comments,
ted
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post #26 of 31 Old 12-04-2004, 04:19 PM
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The frequency response should be better on the 1 12 inch letting you go deeper/lower than two 10 inch subs which would only increase the mid-range bass in terms of output. Frequency response would not improve.
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post #27 of 31 Old 12-04-2004, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bigus
I disagree.

It's much easier to properly integrate two identical subs than two different subs. Additionally, it is simply a myth that smaller drivers are more musical. If you don't need the high frequency response (and you hardly ever do from a sub), then you don't need a smaller driver. They aren't faster, more musical, smoother, or anything of the sort. In fact, in most cases they produce more distortion for a given output level than a larger driver of similar design. Better to have small stoke and large surface area for a given displacement than small surface and large stroke. Of course, large surface and large stroke never hurts either. ;)

As for the original question, I'd have to take a closer look at the two particular drivers (10" and 12") in question to be able to give non-ambiguous advice. However, in general (and this is the ambiguous advice), two subs might be a bit more difficult to setup properly but are more flexible in their ability to reduce modal peaks and nulls, and are also more flexible in their ability to stack for more SPL or separate for stereo imaging support in the upper-midbass region if your mains need it.
I suggest that to precisely integrate a different sub would a bit more hurdles , but the key here is while you seem to disagree that a different driver doesn't handle differently i.e.. speed, smoother, ect I strongly disagree, and that I feel there is a different musical tone from nearly any driver size, but mainly when there is a low frequency bass signal. While different companies can produce 15" drivers that can be tight and accurate like a 12", if you compare a 8-15" driver from the same company, same product lineup, there will certainly be a musical difference atleast to my ears. I know the next excuss that many present is that not all drivers are created equal, but if I was designing a top notch system I'd want to be using the same company and the same lineup if I could. Perhaps to others the difference is not so noticeable, but in my situation I'd frankly like to have 8, 10, and 12 inch subwoofers. I'd be able to produce the best bass atleast to me, rather then using dual 10" or dual 12"



:)

To each his own
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post #28 of 31 Old 12-05-2004, 09:04 PM
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The answer to this question really depends on the specific subs that are being compared.

In the case of the Hsu Research products referenced earlier, we would generally recommend a single STF-3/VTF-3 over dual STF-2/VTF-2. For one, the single 12" (meaning, 12" diameter driver) sub is less expensive. Two, when set side by side, the single 12" sub takes up less floor space. Three, it is easier to hook up a single sub. Four, the 12" sub will have lower tune and frequency response than two 10" subs.

Dynamic compression limit of the Hsu 12" subs is significantly higher than the Hsu 10" subs (although the VTF-2 in particular can get quite loud in the common bass frequencies due in part to having dual heavily flared 3" inner diameter ports). Dual Hsu 10" subs are needed to get closer to the dynamic compression limit of the single 12" sub. The larger enclosure on the 12" sub also allows use of longer ports for lower tune, and adding a second 10" sub to another identical 10" sub will not change the basic port length, so it would be advantageous to go for the single larger subwoofer for lower frequency response. However, if floorspace is at a premium, stacked subwoofers with the 10" diameter drivers will naturally take up less floorspace than our subwoofers with 12" diameter drivers. Also, if maximum output at relatively high bass frequencies is desired, it is entirely possible that a combination such as dual VTF-2 have more undistorted clean output at these higher frequencies than, say, a single VTF-3. Finally, if one is looking for low bass for a 2-channel audio system, they may be able to more easily smooth out response using two smaller subwoofers rather than a single larger subwoofer (noting that it is generally more difficult to set up two subs in this configuration).
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post #29 of 31 Old 12-06-2004, 04:19 AM
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The only difference with the size of the drivers is:

1. Amount of air moved for a give excursion
2. Smaller cones in general are stiffer for the same material - less flex = less distortion. This can also be avoided by using stiffer cone material.
3. Smaller cones are lighter for the same material. This allows them to start moving more quickly everything else being the same.

That said, simply to buy something due to cones size is silly. There are good and bad in pretty much every size. It's all a matter of execution.

Personally, the methodology for integrating 2 subs of different sizes should be no different than 2 identical subs. One will just not likely go as deep. Place the one with the deeper response first then tune with the other one.

I am serious...and don't call me Shirley.
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post #30 of 31 Old 12-06-2004, 10:06 AM
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If going with the Adire line I concure with the DPL12 suggestion made earlier for sealed applications... Almost the same price as a SHIVA but the frequency response is far lower.
Talking directly with Adire they highly recommend the DPL12 in a 3 cu ft sealed box. Build that with a 500w amp from Parts express, and you have a badass sub for well under your budget.

The SHIVA is recommended if you're going with ported.
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