Anyone know of a review of the Axiom EP-600 Sub - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-05-2006, 07:58 AM
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Think about ground and the sky.
Now that might be something different to think about instead of subs? :)

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Old 02-05-2006, 08:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rachaelsdad
I see no muck here. These discussion threads have brought us clarifications and explanations from: Ed Mullen;Tom Danley;Mark Seaton; Bosso Bass; Peter Marcks and others. Not to mention the Graphs and Theory from Ilka and Craig.

These threads are college courses in Theory and Practice; and they cover different aspects of Theory and Listening. I do not recall IMD being explaned so well in so many ways in any other thread. Point/CoounterPoint may yeild a little heat; but also a lot of cool learning.
Adding to this, AVTalk posted data on quite a few subwoofers in their tests, and the numbers, as posted, ARE quite an impressive job.

Over the past few months, since joining "Secrets", and now being promoted to senior editor (Congrats, Ed), Edward's reviews are also covering more ground.

It would be great if he could expand his review to add the following to his format:

Have the subwoofer set up and calibrated in his room, with his having no knowledge regarding what the subwoofer was, and doing a couple of nights of blind listening tests. AFTER those are done, and Ed posts his listening impressions, then his measurements would be taken and added.

For "Secrets", as the listening impressions would be done in, say, February's "issue", and the subwoofer's measurements and identity added in March's "issue", there would be some pretty good "suspense" in regards to what he just auditioned.

Hey, a guy CAN wish, eh ? :)
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Old 02-05-2006, 08:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by craigsub
As for "the usual suspects", You ARE one of the usual suspects - look at what you posted in this thread ...
Again you are just pulling some quotes out of the context, like you always do. I was replying to your claim about TN1220 hitting 114 dB or something.

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There are many other examples. The simple fact is this: People look at the reviews from the three of you, and whichever is the loudest @ under 10% THD is the winner. Period. That is ALL that is discussed on these boards.

And the reason that is all that is discussed is the format all three of you use lead people to that conclusion.
You are really something, you know that? :eek:

Just check what we both wrote not too long ago:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6920528

Now who's talking about those damn numbers all the time?

And look how I replied to you.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6924427

Or just look at your newest comparo over at av123. It's almost all about how much they did and at which frequency.

http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12379

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You have already declared that the VTF-3 HO is unlikely to hit that number. You have nothing from which to base this assertion, but you have already made it.

Therefore, you are (whether you want to admit it or not) pre-declaring the PB12-Plus the "winner" if the HO does NOT hit that number.
I sure wasn't the first one who started to talk about HO hitting that and that levels. Even HSU has said that it is 2x stonger than the TN1220. Based on Keele's review I predict that HO won't hit anymore than 100 dB @ 16 Hz @ 2 m in 2pi. That isn't important to me, but sadly that's the only thing people have been discussing lately.

I don't really understand your PB12-Plus note? Like I have said, it takes a whole lot more measurements AND listening before we can say which one is a better subwoofer. I have never claimed and never will, that some sub is better if it's stronger at some single frequency. That's just plain insane.

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Ilkka, it is quite clear to ANYONE that I am not the person who jusdges the worthiness of a subwoofer in this way. You do. And you have taught many others that ALL that matters is how loud the subwoofer is below 25 Hz.
I don't think it's clear to anyone. Just search what you have posted lately. Or just check the link I posted. You do it, whether you want to admit it or not.

I have been here only around a year. Although it's flattering, but I don't think I have taught that much to anyone. Just search my posts and find all where I teach that ALL that matters is how loud the sub is below 25 Hz. Then check where I mention the importance of the Big Five (flat, deep, clean, linear and loud).

Craig, you are The Master of twisting and turning of what people or you self have said. That only leads to this kind of discussion which benefits no one. I'm not willing to continue.
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Old 02-05-2006, 08:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
Adding to this, AVTalk posted data on quite a few subwoofers in their tests, and the numbers, as posted, ARE quite an impressive job.
It is funny how you praise the job AV Talk did, but at the same time try to degrade and underestimate everything what I have done. Anyone who understands how these measurements are done and what kind of job that is, is suprised how I was able to pull that off with much smaller budget, with much lesser manpower and in much shorter time. But again that tells a lot from you as a person Craig.
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Old 02-05-2006, 08:24 AM
 
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Ilkka, Your link goes to my response to people who were bench racing numbers. I responded with some numbers. Wow, what a shock, that I am willing to discuss both numbers AND sound quality.

From the same thread, I said the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
Ilkka, I understand that you think it takes "way more measurements" to figure out which sub is better. It is good that you acknowledge that you think measurements are the primary barmometer of a subwoofer's performance.

I will be conducting about 30 hour's worth of level matched, blind listening tests between the two subwoofers. This will be done and comments posted BEFORE any measurements are taken.

The first three measurements everyone looks at in subwoofers is max SPL at the three frequencies I mentioned. If you don't believe me, look at the responses from everyone when either you or Ed post "the numbers".

I am not sure what measurements I will be taking for a complete test, but I know the three I mentioned already will be included. I am sure that a quick sweep FR curve will also be taken.

You mention group delay and storage/ringing - I have yet to see a subwoofer test in which group delay or ringing measurements had any listening test results to suggest they mean anything. If you have any links to some blind listening tests which show the value of these tests, feel free to post them. I would like to find out if there is any value to this type of measurement.

As for your assertion that "most musical material does not go below 25 Hz", I have been making that statement for several years, Ilkka. Most movie material does not go below 25 Hz, either (I seem to remember someone sneering at me for suggesting there is not much content below 25 Hz, and that the performance above 25 Hz is the most important criteria for a subwoofer). That won't stop people from wanting to know "what'll she do at 16 Hz?".
Ilkka, when I do a subwoofer review, I do 20-30 hours of blind testing first, and post publically what I (and usually a couple other people) think of the sonic characteristics of the unit, THEN I do the measurements.

And, as I said above, I have yet to see any blind tests which show the importance of GD, Ringing, etc ... But I DO know subwoofers sound different from each other. And, as of this date, there are no measurements to explain why.
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Old 02-05-2006, 08:24 AM
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Back to pi for a minute:

How does 2pi relate to in-room and 4pi to 2 meter, out-door ground plane?

Thanks
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Old 02-05-2006, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka
I recommend to place a wide cut at 20 Hz, because of the shape of the 2pi FR. The lows are already higher than the mid bass. If you place this in a typical (small) room, you will get a rising FR, which will not sound good. That's why you need to cut those lowest frequencies, to make it flatter.


Yes, exactly. I asked it because Craig said we only discuss about SPL. I don't put that much value on FR flatness in 2pi or 4pi. For example all sealed subs do not have flat responses in 2pi. But when one puts that sub in-room, room gain helps and the FR goes flat and linear. I value flat in-room FR, with as less EQ as possible, because I still don't listen my music or movies outdoors or on top of a 70 ft pole.
Illka, I'll assume you have heard the world is not flat and are open to new possiblities. :rolleyes: In light of this long discussion of distortion in high excursion drivers, continued references to high harmonic and intermodulation distortion in sub-sonic frequencies, and the graphical evidence , there is a very high likelihood that the need for the parametric cut is because of the combined distorted and fundamental output in the subsonic range. The bloated non-linear response is independent of room size. Its one reason I have restricted output from my Ultra to the 10hz-40hz band in my quad subs to avoid messing up harmonics in the audible range. Here is the graph I didn't want to post. Because I play my subs near reference, I like to see how they perform at maximum output as a stress test. While this curve may not be indicative of FR in normal operation at lower volumes it does show the high level of distortion and noise above the fundamental at peak demands. The low end of the distortion curve is likely the product of several distortions not just harmonic.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...nmaxoutput.jpg





You don't put much value on linear FR in 2pi or 4pi? When one puts that sub in-room, room gain helps and the FR goes flat and linear? Where did these brilliant ideas come from? For your and others sake, I hope you never become a multiple sub installer.

Before even attempting to smooth inroom response it is imperative you start with the flattest subs you can. Why do you think I purchased 4 Axiom DSP controlled subs? Even with multiple subs, the more non-linear the response the more equalization you would need to use which will exacerbate nodes at positions other than the prime location. Even the excellent Velodyne SMS equalizer con't overcome that problem. The flatter the response from the multiple subs the better your overall performance will be in room. Room gain is simply the wild card in the process which can only be controlled through careful placement, acoustical treatment and finally equalization.




.

John
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Old 02-05-2006, 08:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ilkka
It is funny how you praise the job AV Talk did, but at the same time try to degrade and underestimate everything what I have done. Anyone who understands how these measurements are done and what kind of job that is, is suprised how I was able to pull that off with much smaller budget, with much lesser manpower and in much shorter time. But again that tells a lot from you as a person Craig.
Ilkka, I suggest you learn to quit trying to make me your enemy. I am not.

On 9-26-05, I posted this about your first shootout:

Quote:
Ilkka - You are now the Finnish Ed Mullen. I Love the graphs and the layout, and am looking forward to digesting all the info.
Three days later, you posted this about my review of the EP-600 ..

Quote:
OK, this is getting spooky.

-First the thread was closed.
-Then it was deleted completely.
-At some point Craig has deleted _all_ the TrueRTA screens (from his web photoalbum) he ever took from the EP-600 (also the screens at the Axiom forum had to go ).
-Why would he delete those screens, they were showing that EP-600 beats the Ultra. Unless of course they were bogus...
Now, do you REALLY want to get into a debate in regards to whom maligns the other's review methods more ?
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Old 02-05-2006, 08:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by craigsub
Ilkka, Your link goes to my response to people who were bench racing numbers. I responded with some numbers. Wow, what a shock, that I am willing to discuss both numbers AND sound quality.
Yes, you have explanations to everything. :rolleyes:

Quote:
Ilkka, when I do a subwoofer review, I do 20-30 hours of blind testing first, and post publically what I (and usually a couple other people) think of the sonic characteristics of the unit, THEN I do the measurements.
Exactly how many subwoofer reviews you have done so far? I only see one, the Maestro.

The others are just some overblown forums threads. Yes, they contain your listening impressions, which is good. But they don't contain a lot of measurements. Usually one FR taken with Styke CD single sine waves and a couple of TrueRTA screens showing max SPL at 3-4 frequencies.

I and AV Talk have a different approach. We are not doing a comparo between two subwoofers. We are not posting how some specific subwoofer sounds. We are gathering a large database of objective data from different subwoofers. Just look what I have wrote in my shootouts.

"My original objective was to give people as much as possible of objective test data from different subwoofers, from after people can move to the wonderful world of subjective opinions."

I don't think anyone is willing to buy a sub just based on my (or AV Talk's) measurements. And he shouldn't.

Quote:
And, as I said above, I have yet to see any blind tests which show the importance of GD, Ringing, etc ... But I DO know subwoofers sound different from each other. And, as of this date, there are no measurements to explain why.
Was this an answer to yourself? So is it good that we discuss about SPL or not?
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Old 02-05-2006, 08:49 AM
 
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[quote=Ilkka]
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
Ilkka, Your link goes to my response to people who were bench racing numbers. I responded with some numbers. Wow, what a shock, that I am willing to discuss both numbers AND sound quality.


Exactly how many subwoofer reviews you have done so far? I only see one, the Maestro.

The others are just some overblown forums threads. Yes, they contain your listening impressions, which is good. But they don't contain a lot of measurements. Usually one FR taken with Styke CD single sine waves and a couple of TrueRTA screens showing max SPL at 3-4 frequencies.

I and AV Talk have a different approach. We are not doing a comparo between two subwoofers. We are not posting how some specific subwoofer sounds. We are gathering a large database of objective data from different subwoofers. Just look what I have wrote in my shootouts.

"My original objective was to give people as much as possible of objective test data from different subwoofers, from after people can move to the wonderful world of subjective opinions."

I don't think anyone is willing to buy a sub just based on my (or AV Talk's) measurements. And he shouldn't.


Was this an answer to yourself? So is it good that we discuss about SPL or not?
"The others are just some overblown forums threads. Yes, they contain your listening impressions, which is good. But they don't contain a lot of measurements. Usually one FR taken with Styke CD single sine waves and a couple of TrueRTA screens showing max SPL at 3-4 frequencies.
"

Thanks for making my point. Much appreciated. :)
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Old 02-05-2006, 08:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by craigsub
Ilkka, I suggest you learn to quit trying to make me your enemy. I am not.

On 9-26-05, I posted this about your first shootout:

Three days later, you posted this about my review of the EP-600 ..

Now, do you REALLY want to get into a debate in regards to whom maligns the other's review methods more ?
Again, you are The Master of making things look how they really aren't. Yes, I am the bad guy and hate you. You are that loving and liked person who just wants to do blind listening. You also value all the measurements I have done.

You want me to pull all the things you said to me after my second shootout? ;)
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Old 02-05-2006, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ilkka

I don't think it's clear to anyone. Just search what you have posted lately. Or just check the link I posted. You do it, whether you want to admit it or not..

It's clear to me.

Until very recently you were so wound up in reducing performance to one or two statistics that didn't explain overall performance that you never bothered providing listening impressions, the most important measure of all. I'll be charitable and assume lack of ulterior motive: how else could you have gone so far astray on that pseudo-scientific mess you call finnish shootout 2?

John
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Old 02-05-2006, 08:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka
Again, you are The Master of making things look how they really aren't. Yes, I am the bad guy and hate you. You are that loving and liked person who just wants to do blind listening. You also value all the measurements I have done.

You want me to pull all the things you said to me after my second shootout? ;)
Ilkka, feel free to post anything you please. You did say you hate me, so your repeating that is not a surprise.

I thought your first shootout was a very fair "numbers layout" in the same vein as was AVTalk's, and I said so.

I also said your second shootout was a vendetta, and when a reviewer expresses how he hates the owner of a company whose product he is reviewing, most reasonable people would see a problem with that review being done.

For the record, though, I don't "JUST" want to do some blind listening. I DO think blind listening before measurements will tell a lot about the product AND what we as humans hear in a product, and, over a period of time, it would help with finding which measurements ARE the post important, when it comes to reproducing sound.
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Old 02-05-2006, 08:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jakeman
It's clear to me.

Until very recently you were so wound up in reducing performance to one or two statistics that didn't explain overall performance that you never bothered providing listening impressions, the most important measure of all. I'll be charitable and assume lack of ulterior motive: how else could you have gone so far astray on that pseudo-scientific mess you call finnish shootout 2?
Like I said, the meaning of those shootouts is not to provide my objective listening impressions. Neither is AV Talk's. That part is left to you guys, the end users. I can not decide which subwoofer sounds good to you. I can only show objective data and that's what I have done. Whether you like it or now.
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by craigsub
I also said your second shootout was a vendetta, and when a reviewer expresses how he hates the owner of a company whose product he is reviewing, most reasonable people would see a problem with that review being done.
My wording aside, do you still have any proofs that my objective data isn't correct regarding the EP-600? Because that is what matters, not what I wrote.

And I have admitted that the first version (my wording) wasn't totally objective, that's why I have later edited it and I suggest you to check it out. I'm learning all the time and improving all things regarding my shootouts. Hopefully the third one (not so long time anymore :) ) will be again widely accepted, no matter what subs are measured.

Axiom EP-600 will be measured again by different reviewer (or by how many you ever request) and the results I got will be proved.
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka
Like I said, the meaning of those shootouts is not to provide my objective listening impressions. Neither is AV Talk's. That part is left to you guys, the end users. I can not decide which subwoofer sounds good to you. I can only show objective data and that's what I have done. Whether you like it or now.
Illka in the interest of being civil and not rehashing old fights I'm not going to dwell on what happened last fall. Suffice it to say that you have dug a large hole for yourself with sub manufacturers who were reading those threads whom I know were appalled at your conduct.

While I appreciate your desire to provide objective measurements, without subjective listening assessments your reports will always be incomplete and therefore inconclusive. In that regard, I was pleased to see you have listened to Diana Krall in your last report so there is still hope. :)

John
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ilkka
My wording aside, do you still have any proofs that my objective data isn't correct regarding the EP-600? Because that is what matters, not what I wrote.

And I have admitted that the first version (my wording) wasn't totally objective, that's why I have later edited it and I suggest you to check it out.
I have checked it out, Ilkka. There is a phrase "You cannot unring the bell", and your characterization of the EP-600 was what most people read when it was done. You had phrases in the review such as "Why was it such a poor performer?"

As for "proofs", you showed the EP-600 delivering 86 dB @ 20 Hz with 10% THD+N. Can you show one other review which will corroborate this ? The 10% THD number you posted is quite compelling, because it is conventional wisdom that 10% is the onset of audible distortion.

Yet, if one reads every other review of the EP-600, audible distortion is never mentioned at any volume level, including here at our GTG.
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Ilkka
My wording aside, do you still have any proofs that my objective data isn't correct regarding the EP-600? .
You're kidding me, right? Through how many deleted threads did you not see the proofs? :rolleyes:

This is not a productive discussion.

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Old 02-05-2006, 09:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jakeman
Illka in the interest of being civil and not rehashing old fights I'm not going to dwell on what happened last fall. Suffice it to say that you have dug a large hole for yourself with sub manufacturers who were reading those threads whom I know were appalled at your conduct.
It was clear to me that not all OEMs will like what I measure. Same thing happened with AV Talk's tests, some got mad because they didn't like what they revealed to people. Subwoofer world is full of pixie dust and false claims and promises. When the truth comes out, someone will get mad.

But luckily that doesn't matter, since those measurements are not sponsored by the companies. End users are the ones who are willing to bring their subwoofers under the bench. If if was up to OEMs, how many subwoofers do you think we would see being measured? :D They DON'T like that we reveal they best kept secrets. So I haven't dug any hole for myself. It's the subwoofer OEMs who have lied most about their subwoofers and their claimed measurements.

Quote:
While I appreciate your desire to provide objective measurements, without subjective listening assessments your reports will always be incomplete and therefore inconclusive. In that regard, I was pleased to see you have listened to Diana Krall in your last report so there is still hope. :)
You just don't understand it... :rolleyes: Those are not reviews, they are just objective measurements. They will never contain subjective listening. The BK review contained subjective listening, because it was a REVIEW.
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by craigsub
I have checked it out, Ilkka. There is a phrase "You cannot unring the bell", and your characterization of the EP-600 was what most people read when it was done. You had phrases in the review such as "Why was it such a poor performer?"
It was phrased that, because I knew those results would rise some serious questions. I tried to explain some facts why I thought it performed how it did.

Quote:
As for "proofs", you showed the EP-600 delivering 86 dB @ 20 Hz with 10% THD+N. Can you show one other review which will corroborate this ? The 10% THD number you posted is quite compelling, because it is conventional wisdom that 10% is the onset of audible distortion.

Yet, if one reads every other review of the EP-600, audible distortion is never mentioned at any volume level, including here at our GTG.
As I said, it will be proved as soon as the weather permits. By as many reviewers as is nessecary.
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jakeman
You're kidding me, right? Through how many deleted threads did you not see the proofs? :rolleyes:

This is not a productive discussion.
No I haven't and neither have anyone else.
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka
You just don't understand it... :rolleyes: Those are not reviews, they are just objective measurements. They will never contain subjective listening. The BK review contained subjective listening, because it was a REVIEW.
What I am trying to make you understand is that objective measurements provide an incomplete picture of the subwoofer and you are doing a disservice by providing an incomplete picture. Pardon the pun, but your method is not a sound practice. ;) If you add a section on what you or others heard of course everyone will know it is your personal impression, but that completes the assessment and in my opinion makes the report more scientific and thorough. You call it a review, I call it a complete report.

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Old 02-05-2006, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ilkka
No I haven't and neither have anyone else.
You read plenty of proofs and saw plenty of data but refused to acknowledge them because they provided evidence as to why your methodology was wrong and your data not reliable.

Like I said this is not a discussion worth having yet again, so let's leave it as a footnote for 2005.

John
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Ilkka
It was phrased that, because I knew those results would rise some serious questions. I tried to explain some facts why I thought it performed how it did.


As I said, it will be proved as soon as the weather permits. By as many reviewers as is nessecary.
Ilkka, It is clear your feelings are still bruised. You have spent what is for you a fairly large sum of money on test gear. If you want to have a successful career in regards to working with manufacturers, you need to learn patience. You also need to learn how to make sure you have done everything in your power to get the best possible performance from a product.

Sometimes, a manufacturer will have a problem with something you have done or said. It is their LIVELYHOOD you are playing with, and they have every right to speak up.

The owners of SVS and I have sometimes gotten along great (I have a review posted on their site, still), and sometimes we have not.

Regardless of that, when I do the next subwoofer shootout, I will be making sure that both Hsu AND SVS will have the opportunity to participate in the products being tested, and I will also allow them a look at our room dimensions, and will gladly take suggestions for placement of their subwoofers.

Keeping that in mind, and knowing that SVS has both mentioned a possibility of a new Ultra driver, and that the new db 12.2 driver is out, I sent Ron Stimpson the following e-mail. There was some editing done by me on the e-mail, as I referenced a certain forum member who loves to try to abuse Ed Mullen (with pretty poor results). Those references were removed so we don't have a fight about that ... :)

The e-mail ...

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Originally Posted by craig to ron
We are preparing for shootout # 5. The players this time will be the new VTF-3 HO and one of my current Ultras. As the Ultra driver is soon to be replaced, Ed suggested I look at the newest PB12-Plus/2. Its regular price is only $200 more than the "turbo" version of the Hsu sub. My biggest concern is making sure each company has its "best foot forward" for this.

With the new 12.2 driver, it looks pretty much like a killer design.

So ............ If you want, I would be happy to trade an Ultra in on the PB12-Plus/2, and could make arrangements to meet at the factory. The test will consist of a couple weeks blind listening, followed by an "ED style" outdoor measurement one on one when the weather permits.
Ron is mulling this over - and if he wants to do the trade, that is great. If he wants to do the Ultra vs. "HO", that is also cool. The important issue is that both companies are represented as well as possible.
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jakeman
What I am trying to make you understand is that objective measurements provide an incomplete picture of the subwoofer and you are doing a disservice by providing an incomplete picture. Pardon the pun, but your method is not a sound practice. ;) If you add a section on what you or others heard of course everyone will know it is your personal impression, but that completes the assessment and in my opinion makes the report more scientific and thorough. You call it a review, I call it a complete report.
Yes, my picture is intentionally incomplete, because I want that the end users fill the gaps by themselves. It is impossible to listen to all those subwoofers. Same thing with AV Talk. They just can't listen to 15 subwoofers and provide you cmplete subjective opinions.

It's the nature of these tests. You either get lots of objective data for many subwoofers with no listening impressions, or you get objective data and listening impressions for a few subwoofers (or a single). You can't have both unless you are willing to work seriously like KY did. And at least I'm not willing to do that kind of work without a payment. Are you willing to pay me?

And I don't think I'm making a big error here. Subwoofers that measure well (when looking at the results as a whole, not just some single SPL), sound well too.
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ilkka
And I don't think I'm making a big error here. Subwoofers that measure well (when looking at the results as a whole, not just some single SPL), sound well too.
And here is the fallacy in the approach. If that was always true, how can there be such a discrepancy with blind listening tests such as Craig's November 20 session. Your approach is intrinsically flawed. If you had completed the report you likely would have saved us all alot of bandwidth. :p

John
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by craigsub
The owners of SVS and I have sometimes gotten along great (I have a review posted on their site, still), and sometimes we have not.
I don't know who you are trying to fool or what kind of fairytail world you are living. I communicate with both SVS owners regularly and neither one of them likes you. Don't try to screw me or others. Period.

And probably you didn't read what I wrote about my shootouts. I'm not trying to please OEMs. I'm trying to reveal their best kept secrets. It's a certain fact that someone will not like this. :p
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jakeman
And here is the fallacy in the approach. If that was always true, how can there be such a discrepancy with blind listening tests such as Craig's November 20 session. Your approach is intrinsically flawed. If you had completed the report you likely would have saved us all alot of bandwidth. :p
Excuse me, but which subwoofer does measure well in my tests? As a whole? I don't think you even listened to that kind of a subwoofer.
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Ilkka
No I haven't and neither have anyone else.

Ilkka,

How did you get power to that seemingly remote parking lot for your GP measurments? Did you use a really long extension cord, portable generator, car battery?

HToM

"Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science?"
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:55 AM
 
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Ilkka,

How did you get power to that seemingly remote parking lot for your GP measurments? Did you use a really long extension cord, portable generator, car battery?
Hehe, that's not remote by Finnish standards. I was using a 40 meter extension cord. That line was behind a 16 A fuse (remember, it's 230 V here, 16*230=3680W). The cords I used are specsed for 3500 Watts.
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