Anyone heard the new Klipsch Rt 12d or 10d? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 04-07-2006, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone heard the new Klipsch Ref Subs? I am looking for a new sub and was thinking about the RSW 12. I heard its big bro the RSW 15 and was very impressed. I dont want to go spend the money on the RSW 12 if the new RT 10d or RT 12d are worth the extra money. Also, for anyone who has heard the RSW 12 and 15 how do they compare? I have also been reading alot about SVS subs here and they seem to be highly recommended. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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post #2 of 21 Old 04-08-2006, 01:49 PM
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Hello,

The Klipsch subs 12D or 10D will not be out till the end of May or early June.
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post #3 of 21 Old 04-09-2006, 11:05 PM
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I have had both an SVS PC+ and a RSW-15 subs. To be honest, I wasn't a fan of the sound of the SVS. It went a little bit deeper, but the RSW has a whole lot of impact. In terms of music performance, the SVS truely gets blown out of the water. Once again, this is just my opinion, but based on what my friends have heard, they also prefer the RSW.
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post #4 of 21 Old 04-10-2006, 09:17 AM
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I have never been impressed with the Klipsch subs. It started when the RW12 was embarrassed by the velo dls 3750r sitting right next to it for half the price. The owner of the shop had no explination. We checekec all the setting, swithced cables, locations, receivers, rechecked the settings--all multiple times with the same results. I knew the RSW's were a step up and had a sales guy talk up the RSW12 to me for a bit. This was his biggest and most expensive sub he had on display and it was going to "WOW" me. I kind of felt bad for the guy after the demo. It was listed at around $1500 or so (i forget the exact price) but it was in no way impressive. THey did have 2 of the RSW15's in their theater room and those did sound pretty good--not crazy good but pretty good. i was more impressed by a single Veldodyne DD12 in a room a little bigger than this one, than I was by the 2 rsw15's in a smaller room. My home theater room is about double the size of their display theater and I can honestly say that I get much more bass that they did in their demo room, for about 1/3 of the price. Klipsch makes pretty good stuff, but for the money I think you can find better subs. The RSW15 rates pretty high by the Honorable Tom Nousaine from an output standpoint, but it does appear to roll off pretty bad as the frequencies drop. For comparison the Hsu VTF-2 is only 4 db's shy of it at 20hz. That is $500 10" sub compared to a $1800-ish 15" sub. Just my take. No idea on the release date on the new subs, as again I would never buy a klipsch sub. Good luck in your search.

Above all, enjoy the sound.
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post #5 of 21 Old 04-11-2006, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your input guys I do appreciate it. I like to hear all sides of the story when it comes to this kind of stuff. I need all the food for thought I can get. So if you had $1200 to $1500 to spend on a sub what would you buy?
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post #6 of 21 Old 04-12-2006, 11:34 AM
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Need to know a little about your room and listening preferences.

I'll say, though, the best sub I've owned (and still own) in that range is the SVS PB12-Plus/2.
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post #7 of 21 Old 04-13-2006, 03:32 AM
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I will agree to a certain extent with bsheldon that previous Klipsch Reference Line subs have not fared well against some of their competitors. Their performance was acceptable, but their value was lacking, i.e., performance/$$$. For example, the RW-12 was a decent sub; it just cost too much. (I don't know why it was "embarrassed" by a less expensive Velodyne unit, but I suspect the two subs were not properly level-matched with an SPL meter.)

On the other end of the spectrum, the absolute best and most powerful bass I've ever heard came from a set of dual Klipsch KW-120-THX subs driven by their 1 kilowatt amplifier. This was part of a full blown Klipsch THX Ultra2 system and the bass was absolutely staggering.

With their new sub lineup, it looks like Klipsch is going in some new directions. The RT-12d and RT-10d look like very interesting designs. The triangular shape, the digital EQ, the powerful amps, (800 and 700 watts continuous, respectively), and the "Adaptive Room Correction" process are all new and unique in the Klipsch line. They are a huge change in Klipsch's subwoofer design philosophy. They still appear to be pricey, (MSRP of $1,999 and $1,599 respectively). Nonetheless, I would suggest withholding judgement on them, (which obviously bsheldon has *not* done ), until they are released, the specifications are published and they are reviewed by competent reviewers, -- and, most importantly, *you* have heard them for yourself.

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post #8 of 21 Old 04-13-2006, 08:49 AM
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Hello Craig,

One of the sub systems I have are the Klipsch Ultra IIs. I was thinking the same thing with the new design. It is amazing what they have done with the Ultras with only two 12 inch woofers.

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post #9 of 21 Old 04-13-2006, 10:17 AM
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I appreciate the shots you took at me without merit craig--no offense taken at all. However, I do have to ask, "have you heard them?" Granted you didn't specifically say they are great or anything, but you are definately acting as a cheerleadeer for them. I think you can use your own argument on yourself. I was not saying anything negative about them at all. Actually I said nothing about the new subs as they are not out yet. I was making statement based on the klipsch subs that I have experience with. Which by the way is what the OP specifically asked about in his opening statements. I am eagerly awaiting their arrival as well as the new room adaptive thing sounds promising. I would still contend that for that kind of money--the new ones can still be beaten. Heck--for the money any manufactured sub can be beat with a decent DIY. As far as the RW12 being embarassed, no neither sub was calibrated with a meter. We (the store owner, a salesman, my friend, and myself) spent about 1 hour playing with the two of them. Again we did everything we could without getting out calibration equipment to compare the two side by side. I didn't care so much except for the fact that there was a clear night and day difference bewteen the 10" $400 sub and the 12" $800 "reference" series Klipsch. We swaped the cables, adjusted both gains, swaped placement--it wasn't close. The gain on the Klipsch was maxed and the gain on the goofy dls was about 25-33%--best I can tell with the silly button controls it has. I asked the store owner what gives? and why in the world would anyone buy the klipsch for double the money and half the performance? He really didn't have an answer. I am not knocking klipsch, as they make highly respected and well known stuff that has a cult like following. I am just stating my experience bewteen those two subs on that given day in that room--I did go back a few times over the next month just to make sure--same results.
Again not wanting to start a P*#@*ng match or anything.

Above all, enjoy the sound.
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post #10 of 21 Old 04-13-2006, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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My listening will heaily music probably a split like 70/30 or 65 35 music. I do like a solid, deep bass. I have never been impressed by or contented with the sound of a 10. Maybe I just haven't heard the right 10 yet, but up to this point they just don't seem to hit the lower bass notes or have the spl that I want. I heard an RSW 15 about a year ago and was blown away. I have read about it dropping off sharply under 30hz but I never heard it. (I only listend to it watching a demo of the opening of the 1st LOTRings and the chase scene through the jungle on the Incredibles) I probably like a stronger bass presence than most. I am not one that merely wants my sub to fill in from 30hz to 20 hz where the mains can't go, but at the same time I don't like a muddy, boomy sound either. I believe in picking your speakers for music and then converting them into HT speakers, unless of course you can have a dedicated HT room. My room is fairly small, only about 11x15 but I plan on having a larger one in the reasonably near future. I would rather overdo it for my current room than to underdo it and not have enough sub in the future. Besides you can always turn the gain down on the sub but you can only turn it up so far! Anyway, I listened to the Def tech supercube with the 3 tens in it yesterday and I really wasnt impressed. I would like to hear the supercub reference though in comparison to something like the RSW 15. Anyone out there had both or listened to both side by side?
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post #11 of 21 Old 04-14-2006, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsheldon View Post

I have never been impressed with the Klipsch subs. It started when the RW12 was embarrassed by the velo dls 3750r sitting right next to it for half the price. The owner of the shop had no explination. We checekec all the setting, swithced cables, locations, receivers, rechecked the settings--all multiple times with the same results. I knew the RSW's were a step up and had a sales guy talk up the RSW12 to me for a bit. This was his biggest and most expensive sub he had on display and it was going to "WOW" me. I kind of felt bad for the guy after the demo. It was listed at around $1500 or so (i forget the exact price) but it was in no way impressive. THey did have 2 of the RSW15's in their theater room and those did sound pretty good--not crazy good but pretty good. i was more impressed by a single Veldodyne DD12 in a room a little bigger than this one, than I was by the 2 rsw15's in a smaller room. My home theater room is about double the size of their display theater and I can honestly say that I get much more bass that they did in their demo room, for about 1/3 of the price. Klipsch makes pretty good stuff, but for the money I think you can find better subs. The RSW15 rates pretty high by the Honorable Tom Nousaine from an output standpoint, but it does appear to roll off pretty bad as the frequencies drop. For comparison the Hsu VTF-2 is only 4 db's shy of it at 20hz. That is $500 10" sub compared to a $1800-ish 15" sub. Just my take. No idea on the release date on the new subs, as again I would never buy a klipsch sub. Good luck in your search.

I sell both the Hsu and the Klipsch subs. I've had the RSW-15 and VTF-2 side by side. Sorry...ain't no comparison. The VTF-2 is a neat little sub...I put one in my office on my computer system and it sounds great, but it ain't an RSW-15 by any stretch of the imagination. The VTF-3, which was also in the room, is closer in extension, but does not have anywhere near the sheer power, speed or dynamic impact of the '15...even with two of them. The RSW-12 doesn't get as deep as the VTF-3 but has boatloads more output and sheer dynamic punch and speed above 25hz. There are always compromises and Klipsch chose better impact and dynamics, that is their trademark. The Klipsch subs are better at the higher frequency ranges than many other subs...this stemming from the fact Klipsch builds larger Horn loaded speakers like the LaScala that don't get down very deep...but have HUGE output and hellacious amounts of punch down to the cut off point. Their subs are designed to keep up, deliver that punch and impact without compression and remain musical. That being said, they CAN go deep.

The key is placement and judicious EQ. They take a bit more time to play with but get them both right and they are exceptionally good, delivering a heck of a lot of impact with some serious grunt. I've achieved flat response to 18hz and a HELL of a lot of output with a single RSW-15 and a BFD in about 6 different installs last year. Oh, and on the RW-12...it really works best in a really small room...but I usually recommend and sell the VTF-3 which is a better sub. Oh...and the Ultra 2 sub system...SCARY SCARY GOOD!

Want both ungodly extension, unbelievable speed, plus absolutely INSANE amounts of output? I also do Danley Labs...a DTS-20 will do the trick.

"Did you make 'em fine-ass-soundin' speakers over there what would sound gooder than hell comin' out of the back of my truck-boat-truck?"

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post #12 of 21 Old 04-15-2006, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsheldon View Post

I appreciate the shots you took at me without merit craig--no offense taken at all. However, I do have to ask, "have you heard them?"

I'm sorry if it came across as me taking "shots" at you. I didn't mean it that way. My comments were intended to be directed at the concept of dismissing a new sub based on the historical perspective of a sub that is 2 generations removed from a new, and completely different design:
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No idea on the release date on the new subs, as again I would never buy a klipsch sub.

I took this to mean that you've made up your mind about these new subs before they've hit the street. All I suggested was that the OP wait to pass judgement on them until they arrive.
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Granted you didn't specifically say they are great or anything, but you are definately acting as a cheerleadeer for them.

I wasn't trying to be a "cheerleader" for them, but I do think they have some very *interesting* new features that deserve serious consideration. The Klipsch Press Release is really the only information we have on these subs so far. If you read it, you will see that these subs are truly unique, not just for Klipsch, but for the subwoofer industry as a whole. AFAIK, no other subwoofer uses a 12" driver with two 12" PR's in a small, triangular design that is optimized for corner-loading. (Martin-Logan uses a quasi-triangular design in the Descent line, but they use 3 active drivers in a sealed system and they don't specifically recommend corner-loading). Klipsch has always used "corner-loading" in their speaker designs, (i.e., Klipschorns), however, these are the first subs to be specifically designed for corner-loading. It will be *interesting* to see if this is a useful design, or if it just adds output at the expense of FR anomalies.

They also have a feature called "Adaptive Room Correction" which uses a calibrated mic and DSP to equalize the sub to the room. It appears to use a digital EQ, but doesn't say whether it's parametric or graphical, how many bands it has, and what the boost and cut ranges are. Will it be as functional as Velodyne's Digital Drive/SMS-1 system, or will it be just a single band of EQ like some of the SVS subs? We don't know yet. (In all honesty, I don't expect this system to be any better than most of the other automatic EQ systems out there. For example, I have a Velodyne SMS-1. I have bypassed the automatic EQ mode because I can get much flatter response with the manual mode. I also have a Yamaha receiver with YPAO. I have disabled the auto-EQ because I don't like any of the automated preset programs). It will be *interesting* to see if Klipsch can implement automatic room correction better than some of the other designs.

Right now, I have an Earthquake Supernova MKV-15 and a Velodyne SMS-1. I acquired the two units for a combined price that was slightly more than the MSRP of the RT-12d. If the RT-12d has solid extension below 20 Hz and a functional EQ as good as the SMS-1, it could be a good "value". However, on the surface, $2k seems like a lot of money for a small sub with just one 12" active driver. Although all these new designs and features look like "interesting" concepts, I'll reserve judgement until the units actually hit the streets and I can listen to one.

In terms of your dissatisfying audition of the RW12, if you had the gain "maxed out" and it wasn't putting out sufficient volume, I would suggest there was something definitely wrong, either with the setup, or more likely, with the sub itself, as your experience would be very atypical for that sub. I have a friend who owns it and it really pounds from about 30 Hz up. Max'ing out the gain, if done for a long period of time can have a severe detrimental effect on an amplifier. If this was a long-term, in-store demo unit and the gain had been set at maximum for a significant period of time, the amp was probably shot. It's also possible that the driver was "bottomed" or the voice coil overheated. If you were in fact dealing with a defective RW-12, I would encourage you to reconsider your own opinion of Klipsch subs, just for the sake of fairness, not because I'm their cheerleader.

Craig

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post #13 of 21 Old 07-14-2006, 12:18 PM
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I have an RSW-12 front/RSW-15 rear sub combo (less than 300 sq ft ) that I am COMPLETELY happy with. I am however looking for a sub for my bedroom. Does anyone have the new RT 10d or 12d at the house yet?
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post #14 of 21 Old 07-14-2006, 01:04 PM
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I also owned an RW12 (Not the RSW12). It was the first piece of my HT that I upgraded. It's just not a strong sub. I also had to run the gain all the way up on mine to get decent output. Before you call me a Klipsch basher, be aware that I've got 9 of their speakers at my house right now.

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post #15 of 21 Old 08-13-2006, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmlowz View Post

Hello,

The Klipsch subs 12D or 10D will not be out till the end of May or early June.

Are we there yet? I don't think these subs exist .
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post #16 of 21 Old 08-13-2006, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

Are we there yet? I don't think these subs exist .

I believe they are on the Klipsch web site. Did you try looking in the Klipsch forums to see if anyone has them or reviewed them?
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post #17 of 21 Old 08-13-2006, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

I believe they are on the Klipsch web site. Did you try looking in the Klipsch forums to see if anyone has them or reviewed them?

Yes. A lot of interest but not much experience with the actual unit(s). I also wanted to hear some unbiased opinions on a non Klipsch forum.
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post #18 of 21 Old 08-14-2006, 07:16 AM
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I heard both subs at my local dealer. Both were paired up with a cheapo Pioneer 516 receiver and the RF-25 series speakers. This was a large demo room with carpeting and the subs were in opposite corners. The 12" was very impressive throughout the demo of Mr. and Mrs Smith. These were the only two subs available so it was impossible to do a side by side comparison.
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post #19 of 21 Old 10-04-2006, 01:58 PM
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I'm also interested in reading a review on either the RT-10d or the RT-12d. If anyone else has heard them.
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post #20 of 21 Old 03-19-2007, 12:42 PM
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I'm sorry to dig this up, but is there any new info in these subs? I saw a db graph on their reproduction after the room calibration and it was totally flat except for the 75-85 hz gap were it dropped to -7 db.

Currently listening through...KEF/Yamaha :)
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post #21 of 21 Old 03-19-2007, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
I'm sorry to dig this up, but is there any new info in these subs? I saw a db graph on their reproduction after the room calibration and it was totally flat except for the 75-85 hz gap were it dropped to -7 db.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...06-part-1.html
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