The Ultimate shootout begins ... - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 919 Old 08-26-2006, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Willd
Yes! That is a great post by Ed, but it seemed like it was largely overlooked by a lot of the poesters in this thread, including Craig.
WillD, I read that post at least 5 times. I have never seen Ed post anything quite that obnoxious, so I decided he was having a bad day.

Why some of you guys think I am deliberately setting up my brother's company to "take a fall" is beyond me.

Those that are following this "theory" that I am pre-disposed to prefer sealed subwoofers need to look up the term "Blind Test". You also need to read what I write in its entirety. For a change. :rolleyes:
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post #902 of 919 Old 08-26-2006, 08:35 PM
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I'm sorry Bosso, but I'm having a very hard time seeing how this ever could possibly go well considering history and stated animosities. It's very clear to me that your not excited about LLT and that's your prerogative. For that matter you have never been that terribly fond of Tom V and SVS..once again that's your prerogative.
Steve...I never said I have anything more than the ridiculous size of the big ported subs to result in my being 'not excited'.

I have taken issue with the claims that the alignment mimics a sealed sub exactly in the music bandwidth and that it doesn't need HP protection, among some other minor points that had begun to be peddled as fact. These claims were based solely on a relative few subjective opinions and Steve's interpretations of computer modeling.

I really have to ask you what the reference to my lack of fondness for Tom Vodhanel has to do with this thread?

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Like Steve touched upon then, if I build a small sealed using a Tumult D4 (assuming you used the D2, or vice versa) and it was a bit different from your design, can I use it to accurately verify or dispute your claims?
You can do whatever floats your boat. Use whatever driver you want. As far as disputing claims I make, the driver is largely irrelevant.

So...I wonder what the point here really is? Are the 2 Steve's only participating in this thread to expose Craig's devious plot? Really guys, give us a break.

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Hmmm. Are you one of those guys who thinks this war on terrorism isn't really all it's made up to be? That we're not really in danger of going into a WWIII or getting hit with a weapon of mass destruction? The cards are on the table bosso, wake up and smell the coffee.
WTF? This is truly the height of your reach, equating the war on terror and the possibilty of WWIII with Craig building a pair of ported subwoofers. :eek:

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post #903 of 919 Old 08-26-2006, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by craigsub
WillD, I read that post at least 5 times. I have never seen Ed post anything quite that obnoxious, so I decided he was having a bad day.

Why some of you guys think I am deliberately setting up my brother's company to "take a fall" is beyond me.

Those that are following this "theory" that I am pre-disposed to prefer sealed subwoofers need to look up the term "Blind Test". You also need to read what I write in its entirety. For a change. :rolleyes:
I personally do not feel that you are setting the DIY sub up for a fall, because I for whatever reason, have a tiny bit more faith in mankind.

I just agree with Ed, in these areas...

Quote:
I don't have to be there to tell you a dual 15" reflex in a properly sized and ported enclosure will outperform - in an anechoic environment - your two current favs the Maestro and the DD-18.

Will the dual 15" reflex necessarily sound better than either in your eval room? Maybe it will exhibit a rising response and sound bottom heavy (something you've already criticized reflex for). Maybe it will have an inferior transient response (defined in this parlance as GD, impulse response, and spectral decay). Sure, it will play louder; you don't even have to build it to prove that - so what's the point of building it at all?
And here are some excerpts from one of your posts. The key parts of that post being:

Quote:
Speaking personally, and having had well in excess of 100 loudspeaker pairs and 100 subwoofers in our home, with literally 100's of blind tests being done, I have experienced the following:

1. Ported subwoofers will play louder for the same $$$$ as their sealed counterparts, at the subwoofer's tuning point.

2. Ported loudspeakers will play louder than sealed loudspeakers at the speaker's tuning point.

3. Ported subwoofers/loudspeakers can sound very good.

4. For the best overall sonic presentation, sealed speakers, whether subwoofer or full range, are the way to go.

Quote:
And when one gets to subwoofers, unless one has listened to what a properly designed, sealed subwoofer can do, one really is missing out on the best bass money can buy.

Mark Seaton could easily have decided to come out with a "higher SPL per $$$$" by going ported. He is going sealed because it will perform and sound better in a room.
Quote:
For those who love the idea that ported gives more SPL per dollar, that is cool. We all start by making decisions based on our pocketbooks and our opinions as to what is best for the $$$$.

Eventually, you may get a chance to experience a properly designed, sealed system in your system, and suddenly it will make sense.
If that isn't a clear and distinct bias towards sealed subs.... ;)
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post #904 of 919 Old 08-26-2006, 08:58 PM
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I've been on vacation for the past 8 days, before that a DREAM Nascar fan's weekend...

Ed Mullen, obnoxious? I can't believe it.

It's gonna be a loooong Sunday morning.
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post #905 of 919 Old 08-26-2006, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mboy
This is typical and predictable with the tester involved.
Mboy, I think you might've misunderstood my post. Never did I mean to imply Craig was setting up LLT for a failure. I have nothing against Craig and his methods (not that you do either). This shootout would've been more exciting if the final design favored diy projects already done with this driver, so we can finally compare this "LLT" to more proven/conventional designs. Why opt to use a driver that has already been used in other DIY projects to make a comparison, then deviate from what has already been done with this driver? Just a question.

Craig, I see that the final design hasn't been completely ironed out yet. I hope you come up with a design that people can get a lot of useful understanding and comparison from. Either way, these subs when finished will be rediculousy badass, and will definitely pump out lots of SPL, as far as everything else I guess this is subjective?. It will be interesting to read your criticism of the pair.

Only time will tell what the future holds...so until then JAM LIKE THERES NO TOMORROW!
-Rob

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post #906 of 919 Old 08-26-2006, 09:31 PM
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I thought he had decided on: "There will be two 24x24x50 inch cabinets". If these were the final plans wouldnt they be fairly close to what weve built?
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post #907 of 919 Old 08-26-2006, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Willd
I personally do not feel that you are setting the DIY sub up for a fall, because I for whatever reason, have a tiny bit more faith in mankind.

I just agree with Ed, in these areas...

And here are some excerpts from one of your posts. The key parts of that post being:

If that isn't a clear and distinct bias towards sealed subs.... ;)
WillD ... EVERY post you just quoted was based on BLIND listening tests.

Perhaps you are not aware of this, but blind means one is not aware of which speaker one is hearing. Thus, bias is removed.

Now, for bias, let us look at YOUR bias, as well as Ed's.

You both deliberately left out some pretty important portions of my post in order to "prove a point".

You both left out the parts of my post which said : "I don't know if I prefer the sealed designs like the Maestro because they are sealed, or because ACI does such excellent design work" ... I also said ... "It would be interesting to see what a ported version of the Maestro would sound like" ... Leaving out these all important portions of my posts is dishonest. I am tired of this dishonesty, regardless the source.

Then there is the fact that the subs I am building will be run against Mark Seaton/Mark Schifter's BMF, and I have also offer to open my house to anyone who cares to attend a GTG here, so anyone who wants can hear the subs in question for himself.

By the way .. the BMF is not a sealed design, and both Marks are quite happy to send it to me.

For the record, all listening tests will continue to be done blind, and I really do not care which subwoofer, if any, sounds the best. If the ported subs sound better, that is what will be reported.
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post #908 of 919 Old 08-26-2006, 09:46 PM
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For the record, all listening tests will continue to be done blind, and I really do not care which subwoofer, if any, sounds the best. If the ported subs sound better, that is what will be reported.
Quote:
WillD ... EVERY post you just quoted was based on BLIND listening tests.
Perhaps you are not aware of this, but blind means one is not aware of which speaker one is hearing. Thus, bias is removed.
This is why it is difficult to talk to you. You pull this "you might not know this, but..." bullsh!t and it gets old very quickly. You act like others need the lessons in communication when you have just as many problems as the next guy.

Quote:
You both deliberately left out some pretty important portions of my post in order to "prove a point".
How can I leave out something that doesn't exist?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7655177

Either my brain has selectively ignored those statements in the post linked above, or you are thinking of another post. I am not not being dishonest, and in fact, if there is anything I absolutley hate to do...telling lies would be near/at the top. I might not know much about subwoofer theory/design, but I call BS when I see it.

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By the way .. the BMF is not a sealed design, and both Marks are quite happy to send it to me.
Why wouldn't they be? You aren't getting them for free, right? You seemingly have such a close relationship with AV123/MLS, I can't imagine auditioning any of their products would ever be a problem.

Quote:
For the record, all listening tests will continue to be done blind, and I really do not care which subwoofer, if any, sounds the best. If the ported subs sound better, that is what will be reported.
Why would these ported subs perform any differently than the others have in your previous blind listening tests? As Ed said:

Quote:
There is nothing wrong with keeping an open mind, but there is also nothing special or unique about the proposed reflex design that suggests the outcome of your next blind listening session will be any different.
*sigh* If you're going to accuse me of being dishonest, at least have valid proof to back the accusation up.
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post #909 of 919 Old 08-26-2006, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by nick53
I thought he had decided on: "There will be two 24x24x50 inch cabinets". If these were the final plans wouldnt they be fairly close to what weve built?
All I know is that each driver is seeing ~400 liters?

Only time will tell what the future holds...so until then JAM LIKE THERES NO TOMORROW!
-Rob

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post #910 of 919 Old 08-26-2006, 10:05 PM
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Craig, those who have their panties in a bunch about this whole thing are not going to listen to reason. It doesn't matter that to them that your past evaluations involved blind testing. Their personal animosity toward you, and whatever you do, is the real bias involved, and their prejudice is transparent. No other term can apply to dismissing an evaluation of a subwoofer even before the subwoofer is built, before the evaluation is conducted, and, of course, before the results are known. They are only interested in discrediting your findings before the fact.

I find it fascinating that these same people, earlier in this thread, were singing the praises of one who, in a test of his own, declared what the results would be before he made the test, which contained no blind testing, and went so overboard with his biased comments that he even recanted and revised them. Makes one wonder if they even understand the meaning of the word bias. They most certainly are blind to their own.

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post #911 of 919 Old 08-26-2006, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Willd
This is why it is difficult to talk to you. You pull this "you might not know this, but..." bullsh!t and it gets old very quickly. You act like others need the lessons in communication when you have just as many problems as the next guy.



How can I leave out something that doesn't exist?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7655177

Either my brain has selectively ignored those statements in the post linked above, or you are thinking of another post. I am not not being dishonest, and in fact, if there is anything I absolutley hate to do...telling lies would be near/at the top. I might not know much about subwoofer theory/design, but I call BS when I see it.



Why wouldn't they be? You aren't getting them for free, right? You seemingly have such a close relationship with AV123/MLS, I can't imagine auditioning any of their products would ever be a problem.



Why would these ported subs perform any differently than the others have in your previous blind listening tests? As Ed said:



*sigh* If you're going to accuse me of being dishonest, at least have valid proof to back the accusation up.
Working backwards, I gave you the proof. I specifically pointed out where I had wondered if my preference for sealed was due to the fact that it was sealed, or due to the design work in the speakers.

You call "BS" ...

Telling me I am biased is not "BS" ... it is ********. It gets old immediately. Ask anyone who has met me.

Why would these subs perform any better ? With a blind test, they may. Until They are heard, I have no idea what will happen. If you don't like my response about blind tests, that is fine. Keep in mind, YOU started by accusing me that I am biased.

I have been the recipient of these asinine accusations for years.

For the record, I get nothing for free. I pay for any and all equipment. Ask Ron Stimpson, David Fabrikant, Ian Colqhoun, Aperion, Poh Ser Hsu, Bruce Hall, etc ...
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post #912 of 919 Old 08-26-2006, 11:07 PM
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Working backwards, I gave you the proof. I specifically pointed out where I had wondered if my preference for sealed was due to the fact that it was sealed, or due to the design work in the speakers.
Are you serious?

Quote:
You both deliberately left out some pretty important portions of my post in order to "prove a point".
That, is a lie. I can't leave out something that does not exist. Is that clear? These statements:

Quote:
You both left out the parts of my post which said : "I don't know if I prefer the sealed designs like the Maestro because they are sealed, or because ACI does such excellent design work" ... I also said ... "It would be interesting to see what a ported version of the Maestro would sound like" ... Leaving out these all important portions of my posts is dishonest. I am tired of this dishonesty, regardless the source.
are not found in the post we are discussing.

Quote:
Telling me I am biased is not "BS" ... it is ********. It gets old immediately. Ask anyone who has met me.
If I were to replace "bias" with "preference", would you still disagree? Still, had you not made such comments as those that I previously quoted, no one would have a reason to believe you are biased. Sadly, that isn't the case.

Quote:
Why would these subs perform any better ? With a blind test, they may. Until They are heard, I have no idea what will happen. If you don't like my response about blind tests, that is fine. Keep in mind, YOU started by accusing me that I am biased.
Because they are vented subs, and will almost certainly fall short in the areas that cause you to favor sealed subs. Why do you honestly think they will succeed will many (all?) vented subs have failed, in your blind listening tests.

Until I see something that proves otherwise, you are certainly biased towards/prefer sealed subs, and have made statements that back that up. How could these vented subs possible equal what your cherish in sealed subs, if by design, they fail in those very areas?

And just to be clear, I never thought you got anything for free, which is precisely why I didn't think you'd have a problem obtaining a BMF. Also, I have never stated that I think you will rig this test, nor do I believe so. I trust that whatever is built, it will be properly tested by you.

However, no one knows what the hell will be built, or if it will even be comparable in design to anything that has previously been built.
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post #913 of 919 Old 08-26-2006, 11:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd
Are you serious?



That, is a lie. I can't leave out something that does not exist. Is that clear? These statements:



are not found in the post we are discussing.



If I were to replace "bias" with "preference", would you still disagree?



Because they are vented subs, and will almost certainly fall short in the areas that cause you to favor sealed subs. Why do you honestly think they will succeed will many (all?) vented subs have failed, in your blind listening tests.

Until I see something that proves otherwise, you are certainly biased towards/prefer sealed subs, and have made statements that back that up. How could these vented subs possible equal what your cherish in sealed subs, if by design, they fail in those very areas?
Almost 7000 posts here alone, and you make your entire case on excerpts of one post. What makes you think you deserve "proof" of anything when your standard is taking a portion of .014 % of my posts and deciding you have some special knowlwdge in regards to my alleged bias ?

Four years ago, I picked the ported SVS over the Velodyne FSR-18. Blind test. Was that bias ? Velodyne has improved its subs in every way since then.

As with all tests done here, you are welcome to come and participate.
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post #914 of 919 Old 08-27-2006, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soho
What's disturbing is that I think he actually meant it.
Yeah, I did mean it. The current threat to our country is being taken far too lightly, but politics don't belong in these forums, so I'll stop at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman
well-intentioned contributors like Craig
:rolleyes: Hold on, I just found a port blocker stuffed deep inside my sonosub - gotta dig it out. Ridiculous :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bosso
I have taken issue with the claims that the alignment mimics a sealed sub exactly in the music bandwidth and that it doesn't need HP protection, among some other minor points that had begun to be peddled as fact. These claims were based solely on a relative few subjective opinions and Steve's interpretations of computer modeling.
Won't mimick a sealed sub exactly, but it will behave very similarly. And my previous statements have been incorrect, it won't behave similarly to a regular sealed sub in the musical range, it will behave more similarly to an IB in the musical range. As for the highpass, which you seem to be hung up on, if LLT owners can drive their subs to amp clipping levels and not bottom the driver, why would you even want to impose a highpass? So it can behave better in a 2m ground plane test? So you can run 5hz sine waves through it? In the end, it's the in room plaback of real material that matters most - there's no point in downgrading performance to do a little better in ground plane compression tests or to bulletproof the sub from idiots.

Quote:
WTF? This is truly the height of your reach, equating the war on terror and the possibilty of WWIII with Craig building a pair of ported subwoofers.
Umm, that wasn't equated in my question at all. I asked you a simple question that required a yes or no answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rijax
No other term can apply to dismissing an evaluation of a subwoofer even before the subwoofer is built, before the evaluation is conducted, and, of course, before the results are known
How about "intelligence"? If you're a football coach with a kicker who has a history of missing field goals at the end of games for the win, and you currently find yourself in a tied game with 5 seconds left at the 40, are you going to let him kick? One definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again expecting a different outcome. Craig has blundered many a test before, why should we expect something different this time, especially consdering the circumstances?
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post #915 of 919 Old 08-27-2006, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by craigsub
Almost 7000 posts here alone, and you make your entire case on excerpts of one post. What makes you think you deserve "proof" of anything when your standard is taking a portion of .014 % of my posts and deciding you have some special knowlwdge in regards to my alleged bias ?

Four years ago, I picked the ported SVS over the Velodyne FSR-18. Blind test. Was that bias ? Velodyne has improved its subs in every way since then.

As with all tests done here, you are welcome to come and participate.
So instead of admitting you're wrong, you dodge the issue and criticize me? :rolleyes:

I can't ignore the statements you have made. I could pretend they don't exist, but then I would be lying to myself. Whether one considers statements made in your other posts or not, your preference for sealed subs is undeniable.

Again, IMO, the issue isn't whether or not you will knowingly/purposefully rig the DIY sub for failure...but with what design the sub(s) will be built, and how it will represent other similar DIY subs to the rest of the community.

Concerning your blind test with the SVS/FSR-18 from four years ago...you have stated "Speaking personally, and having had well in excess of 100 loudspeaker pairs and 100 subwoofers in our home, with literally 100's of blind tests being done..."

Excellent...and after all of those blind tests, you have concluded that you prefer sealed subs. Nothing is wrong with that though....so I don't know why you get so defensive about it.
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post #916 of 919 Old 08-27-2006, 03:55 AM
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Jumping Jesus on Pogostick! I followed this thread until about 4 WEEKS ago and lo' and behold it's still going strong with everyone still merrily hatcheting each other!

Too funny...and now back to the Outer Limits...
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post #917 of 919 Old 08-27-2006, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas
Yeah, I did mean it. The current threat to our country is being taken far too lightly, but politics don't belong in these forums, so I'll stop at that.


:rolleyes: Hold on, I just found a port blocker stuffed deep inside my sonosub - gotta dig it out. Ridiculous :)


Won't mimick a sealed sub exactly, but it will behave very similarly. And my previous statements have been incorrect, it won't behave similarly to a regular sealed sub in the musical range, it will behave more similarly to an IB in the musical range. As for the highpass, which you seem to be hung up on, if LLT owners can drive their subs to amp clipping levels and not bottom the driver, why would you even want to impose a highpass? So it can behave better in a 2m ground plane test? So you can run 5hz sine waves through it? In the end, it's the in room plaback of real material that matters most - there's no point in downgrading performance to do a little better in ground plane compression tests or to bulletproof the sub from idiots.


Umm, that wasn't equated in my question at all. I asked you a simple question that required a yes or no answer.


How about "intelligence"? If you're a football coach with a kicker who has a history of missing field goals at the end of games for the win, and you currently find yourself in a tied game with 5 seconds left at the 40, are you going to let him kick? One definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again expecting a different outcome. Craig has blundered many a test before, why should we
I guess a response IS warranted to this.

Callas... There were no "blunders" here. The Ultra was delivered to me with the extra blocker lodged deep in a port. It was in one subwoofer. It was discovered, removed, and test re-done. As all listening tests were done with 2 ports open and one blocked anyway, it had no effect on our music listening in the test. It had a small effect on the measured results. Again, it was discovered, removed, and measurements re-done.

It was also sent to me in this condition, which, in your sick mind, makes it my fault.

I still have every e-mail exchange between David F. and myself, going bck to 2004, including the very cordial ones after he got a chance to read what you and "M-boy" were posting about me.

He is a class act, and we both decided to let things die.

You are the embodiment of a troll, and keep wishing to dig up dirt, even when no dirt is there. Go find all the instances in which I have criticized Ascend's sound.

Ian Colquhoun and I remain friendly, even though I no longer have much in the way of Axiom equipment.

So much for your "fiasco" nonsense.
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post #918 of 919 Old 08-27-2006, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd
So instead of admitting you're wrong, you dodge the issue and criticize me? :rolleyes:

I can't ignore the statements you have made. I could pretend they don't exist, but then I would be lying to myself. Whether one considers statements made in your other posts or not, your preference for sealed subs is undeniable.

Again, IMO, the issue isn't whether or not you will knowingly/purposefully rig the DIY sub for failure...but with what design the sub(s) will be built, and how it will represent other similar DIY subs to the rest of the community.

Concerning your blind test with the SVS/FSR-18 from four years ago...you have stated "Speaking personally, and having had well in excess of 100 loudspeaker pairs and 100 subwoofers in our home, with literally 100's of blind tests being done..."

Excellent...and after all of those blind tests, you have concluded that you prefer sealed subs. Nothing is wrong with that though....so I don't know why you get so defensive about it.
After all these tests, I prefer the Velodyne DD-18 and the ACI Maestro. I like them because they sound better, not because they are sealed.

I drive a 2006 Corvette because I liked it better than the 911 I drove. The V-8 Corvette performed better, IMO, than did the 6 cylinder Porsche.

This does not mean I will always go with the V-8.

It is the same with the Sealed vs. Ported situation.

Too bad you are so biased in your views that you cannot grasp this concept. Most people "get" this.
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post #919 of 919 Old 08-27-2006, 07:03 AM
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This has turned into a mess. I'm closing this...

EDIT: I think a few of you need to say your peace and move on. Others should learn to ignore those who seem to go on and on.

Try to get along guys...

Kyser

"Good... Bad... I'm the guy with the gun."

Ash - Army of Darkness
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Closed Thread Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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