The Ultimate shootout begins ... - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 10:42 AM
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and that excellent bass reproduction isn't restricted to any one design type
Never said it was restricted to one type of design, but if you know how a ported subwoofer works, you'll know that a lower tune with more volume will work better than what he in considering. To suggest dual RLp15s in 250 liters with a ~21hz tune using a port that may very well have audible resonances could raise the bar on how good a reflex design can sound is pretty ridiculous.

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What is the problem?
Just clarify that this design is a traditional ported sub, not an LLT, and that nobody would really be advised to build it in this or other knowledgeable DIY forums for music and movie use in the home, and there is no problem :)
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post #92 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by craigsub
Matt ... I think the guys at the factory can handle this .. but, if we run into any problems, lok for a phone call ... and thanks ! :)
Very well then, I'll start practicing my jeers and snide comments. :D

But seriously, Can't wait to see what you come up with!

Matt
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post #93 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 11:08 AM
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purifiedaudio, remember to hold all jeers and snide comments, until page 5. :D
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post #94 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas
Just clarify that this design is a traditional ported sub, not an LLT, and that nobody would really be advised to build it in this or other knowledgeable DIY forums for music and movie use in the home, and there is no problem :)
Agreed, the point of this thread is to build a true LLT sub and compare it to commercial subs. So let's all cut the sh!t and help Craig out with some design ideas and leave all this other bickering out.

If Craig doesn't like the LAT, he can always redo it or even try a sealed design. Again, wood is cheap.



On a side note, I think we should wait for the new Ultra to come out or compare these subs to the a new Plus sub.

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post #95 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 11:22 AM
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the point of this thread is to build a true LLT sub and compare it to commercial subs
Unfortunately, this has not been stated in this thread by the OP.

Only,
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Nothing is cast in stone ... Mike G. from SoundSplinter has made his suggestions, and everyone is welcome to chime in.
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post #96 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by UNICRON-WMD
.....

On a side note, I think we should wait for the new Ultra to come out or compare these subs to the a new Plus sub.
You are gonna be waiting for a while my friend.....The new Ultra driver is:

1. still in prototype, development
2. will be close to 14"...it will not be a swap out for current ultra drivers
3. it will likely not have all the tuning options currently on the Ultra, if SVS decides to maintain the box/cylinder sizes close to what they are now.
4. they are hoping to have it ready to show by CES

:o


now, back to the regularly scheduled program. :D
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post #97 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo
You are gonna be waiting for a while my friend.....The new Ultra driver is:

1. still in prototype, development
2. will be close to 14"...it will not be a swap out for current ultra drivers
3. it will likely not have all the tuning options currently on the Ultra, if SVS decides to maintain the box/cylinder sizes close to what they are now.
4. they are hoping to have it ready to show by CES

:o


now, back to the regularly scheduled program. :D

Yea, but the blind test will include the HSU VTF-3HO w/ Turbo. The way it looks is the new Ultra should be in many homes before the HO is done:o

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post #98 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 11:37 AM
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Stevenn .. how wide is your sub ?
It's 29" wide Craig. Tell you what, not that it really matters though (since we're sort of like one big dysfunctional family around here)... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and be a good boy and see what transpires. There will be a good many with far more knowledge than I following this Thread. I'll admit your negative comments in the past regarding time and how that relates to the DIY hobby, makes the hair on the back of my neck stand even though I agree to a degree. It's how you have used that argument that causes my concern.

Steve C..You ain't going to believe this, but br DIY Ryan/K wants to go with a dual 15" driver option now. Yip! his wife just gave the go ahead from a PM that just came in. :D It's very interesting concerning his issue with the WAF in the past.

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post #99 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Steve, thanks for the info ... the "alcoves" are 36 inches wide and (I think ... I need to re-measure to be sure) 40 inches deep ... at one time, we had a pair of Klipsch Belles in each.

As for my comments on time ... I can see why you are upset. Afterall, pointing out that time is a valuable commodity certainly is a new concept ... :D
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post #100 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo
You are gonna be waiting for a while my friend.....The new Ultra driver is:

1. still in prototype, development
2. will be close to 14"...it will not be a swap out for current ultra drivers
3. it will likely not have all the tuning options currently on the Ultra, if SVS decides to maintain the box/cylinder sizes close to what they are now.
4. they are hoping to have it ready to show by CES

:o


now, back to the regularly scheduled program. :D
You tease :) Point 3, is that because they are using 2 4" ports?

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post #101 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 12:19 PM
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As for my comments on time ... I can see why you are upset. Afterall, pointing out that time is a valuable commodity certainly is a new concept ...
No Craig I'm not upset at all. Your opinion is valid, but only in a certain context. You can and will think as you want of course, (I have no problem with that) it's how you use that argument that gives me the impression that I have. I would like to clarify.. it's only impression and not anger. In the time you figure out what you want to build, I could build 10-20 subs. For some spending a hr on a DIY project is to much and I (((will))) respect that. It's when that person uses that excuse for others not to consider the prospect is when impressions are formed. Suggestions are always helpful I think we would both agree, but imposing a bias in a certain way is another case no?

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post #102 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn
........Steve C..You ain't going to believe this, but br DIY Ryan/K wants to go with a dual 15" driver option now. Yip! his wife just gave the go ahead from a PM that just came in. :D It's very interesting concerning his issue with the WAF in the past.
you guys with the cool wifes and the single peeps, can ALL GO TO HELL!!!!!!!! :mad: :o :p

am I the only one stuck here with the Jihad-like wife that requires massive amounts of @ss kissing and brownie point stock options before I can go to my next venture????
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post #103 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 12:29 PM
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am I the only one stuck here with the Jihad-like wife that requires massive amounts of @ss kissing and brownie point stock options before I can go to my next venture????
No that's not the case after I spoke with he last night Sherv. Not to worry, your problems are over. :D :D I think that center you built put her absolutely over the top.

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post #104 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 12:34 PM
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Steve C..You ain't going to believe this, but br DIY Ryan/K wants to go with a dual 15" driver option now. Yip! his wife just gave the go ahead from a PM that just came in. It's very interesting concerning his issue with the WAF in the past
I'll keep my eyes open for a thread, hopefully he has seen the light.
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post #105 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo
you guys with the cool wifes and the single peeps, can ALL GO TO HELL!!!!!!!! :mad: :o :p

am I the only one stuck here with the Jihad-like wife that requires massive amounts of @ss kissing and brownie point stock options before I can go to my next venture????
Well, I've tried the kissing way, it works but it takes a lot of time and kisses. This time around I'm going to try cunning, I've laid out my plan over here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...-svs-pics.html

post #13 & #15

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post #106 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas
Never said it was restricted to one type of design, but if you know how a ported subwoofer works, you'll know that a lower tune with more volume will work better than what he in considering. To suggest dual RLp15s in 250 liters with a ~21hz tune using a port that may very well have audible resonances could raise the bar on how good a reflex design can sound is pretty ridiculous.


Just clarify that this design is a traditional ported sub, not an LLT, and that nobody would really be advised to build it in this or other knowledgeable DIY forums for music and movie use in the home, and there is no problem :)
Making a statement like "...a lower tune with more volume will work better than what he is considering" is a gross generalization without knowing other aspects of what he has in mind. Earlier he suggested a 17hz tune as a possibility so where are you getting this 21hz tune stuff. Tuning a large enclosure to as low as possible is in itself no guarantee the sub will perform well without it being in sync with the enclosure size, driver, and port specs. Tuning low for the sake of it without considering other attributes will just result in excessive excursion, premature roll-off and higher distortion . I also appreciate that tuning too high will also cause a raft of problems such as reduced SPL below the system's capability, premature roll-off and less frequency linearity.

At this juncture, where we know so little about his design, we should refrain from generalizing too much. With all the alternatives inherent in starting from a 6.5cf to 8 cf enclosure he should have much scope for making the right compromises including how best to design the vent to minimize resonant noise and what the best tuning frequency should be given the size of enclosure and the driver. Its unseemly dumping on a design which hasn't even been finalized when friendly suggestions are being sought. In that regard I would like to read more about just what they are trying to achieve.

I've always enjoyed very large enclosure subs. Having said that very big enclosures can also pose a challenge reproducing accurate midrange bass, which to me is far more important than a few extra db of low frequency output. So when I listen to a very large sub I try to focus on how well it is behaving in the mid-bass and not worry too much about low f3 which is a given with the large volume. ;)

John
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post #107 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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John ... Excellent points, including the fact that Mike G. has suggested a design with a 17 Hz tuning frequency, not 21.

Here is some more info from Mike G ...

Quote:
Whenever building large enclosures, I like to recommend single cabinets for each speaker - as if something were to go wrong in a shared cabinet - say with one driver failing / losing signal connection - the remaining working driver may become damaged during strenuous use on account of the cabinet's effective volume now being twice as large as it should be, and the mechanical power handling subsequently reduced. With a larger cabinet, you will also need more bracing. In the end however, if you are a responsible user and keep a close eye on your equipment, throwin' two drivers, as evenly separated as possible, into a shared cabinet should be no problem.
As for my brother's people ... I won't even sit with them until after we return from vacation next week ... then they get to help decide what to do.

Putting two units together into one box should be easy enough ... a 32 x 34 x 50 inch box with one inch MDF should yield a box of about 650 liters, assuming extensive bracing, and accounting for the port (10x45 inch) and drivers.

I am at work, and doing this in my head, so if I am off a bit ... shoot me.
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post #108 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 01:28 PM
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I've always enjoyed very large enclosure subs. Having said that very big enclosures can also pose a challenge reproducing accurate midrange bass, which to me is far more important than a few extra db of low frequency output.
I would agree and had the same challenging thoughts when I was considering going with such a design Jake. In the end I found the mid-range as good as I have ever had with the exception of the two DIY sealed units or the Maestro. It's a much nicer balanced out design than what I was expecting after running other lower tuned options. I just knew mid-range was going to suffer, but I was simply wrong.

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post #109 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 01:29 PM
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Tuning a large enclosure to as low as possible is in itself no guarantee the sub will perform well without it being in sync with the enclosure size, driver, and port specs. Tuning low for the sake of it without considering other attributes will just result in excessive excursion, premature roll-off and higher distortion
That's just beyond silly. Do you honestly think we design subs with a low tune without taking other aspects into consideration? :confused:

Quote:
With all the alternatives inherent in starting from a 6.5cf to 8 cf enclosure
You don't have too many alternatives if you are keeping between 185-225 liters with two RLp15s ;) Increase that range up to 600 liters, then you have some options.

Quote:
Having said that very big enclosures can also pose a challenge reproducing accurate midrange bass, which to me is far more important than a few extra db of low frequency output
I'd love to hear you explain this one. A LLT design will have better sound quality in the musical range than a traditional ported sub - unless you like distortions.

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so where are you getting this 21hz tune stuff
He mentioned a 10" x 45" port.
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post #110 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 02:24 PM
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One of the better descriptions of the problem with mid-bass efficiency in so called "optimal box configurations" can be found at The Rythmik audio website. He describes far better than I could the problems with finding the right T/S parametres that don't sacrifice mid-bass performance. Glad to see Steve NN also identified and dealt with this challenge to his satisfaction. :)

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/faq.htm

Quote:
Q: Isn't each driver is designed for an optimal box configuration?
A: This is a common misconception. If you have access to simulation programs, you can easily see why so-called "optimal box configuration" is rather an engineering compromises First, let us at the vented box. Set the box size to 100 liters and tune it to 20hz. You can plug in any reasonable values for T/S parameters and play with them. You will then see that maximum output at 20hz depends only on two parameters: Re (voice coil resistance) and BL (actually, it depends on 3 parameters: Re, BL, and enclosure size, which is fixed). All other T/S parameters will change the response curve, but not the maximum output at 20hz. So the job of driver designers is to find a set of T/S parameters that will level off the response above 20hz so that we get a flat response. But in the process, the efficiency at the mid-bass band (40hz-100hz) is sacrificed. The midbass from professional drivers is generally very good. This is mainly because of their high efficiency. The goal of our DirectServo driver is to borrow that idea so that the mid-bass efficiency is as high as possible. In terms of frequency response, we rely on the servo technology to give us a flat response. So that we have best of both worlds: good midbass sound and great bass extension. A similar argument applies for sealed box designs. Overall speaking, there are 3 parameters that we care most: Re, BL, and enclosure size.

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post #111 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 02:32 PM
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You're talking about two very different things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman
very big enclosures can also pose a challenge reproducing accurate midrange bass
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeman
the problem with mid-bass efficiency
How much headroom do you want?
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post #112 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 02:57 PM
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jakeman, no one is just building a huge box, tuning it to just any freq, and then throwing just any old driver into it. Well maybe some people do. ;) Most people build the box around the driver and it T/S parameters, so that the problems you are referring to are non-existent.
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post #113 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 03:07 PM
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I think you have at least a somewhat good idea how a ported sub works, so it should be obvious to you why an LLT ported sub will have better sound quality than the traditional design Mike is suggesting.
Quote:
Never said it was restricted to one type of design, but if you know how a ported subwoofer works, you'll know that a lower tune with more volume will work better than what he in considering.
I personally don't see an obvious advantage. Neither does Ed...
Quote:
The answer will range from 'not at all' to 'quite significantly'. It all depends on your room size and preferred playback level.
Since I see this as the perfect opportunity to uncover the 'obvious' advantage, Craig should build a sub as the driver designer recommends and another sub as SteveC recommends, amp and drivers being the same in each sub.

This way the subjective and objective differences wil finally be obvious, no?

I think the thought that any subwoofer on the drawing board is a foregone conclusion is absurd...funny even :p Someone should forward that idea to TV. I'm sure he'd get a chuckle.

I also think that the idea that Craig is rigging a foregone conclusion is the funniest bit of chatter to have ever graced these boards. :rolleyes:

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post #114 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 03:18 PM
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I personally don't see an obvious advantage. Neither does Ed...
I believe he was referring to the original 250l 17hz box. The 650l stuff is brand new info.
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post #115 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 03:18 PM
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I also think that the idea that Craig is rigging a foregone conclusion is the funniest bit of chatter to have ever graced these boards.
Good point Bosso, this one made me laugh. As a longtime lurker, I've read a lot of the flame wars that seem to come up around here (especially when it comes to subwoofers), and I, for one, am hoping everyone can do their best to put aside personal differences here and work together to see what Craig can come up with.

This is supposed to be fun! Remember?
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post #116 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 03:22 PM
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Personally, I would prefer to see the unresolved online reviews brought to a close before embarking on new ones. Reminds e of myself...100 home improvement projects going and none complete. :)
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post #117 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54
I believe he was referring to the original 250l 17hz box. The 650l stuff is brand new info.
Nope...The quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig
Good points on the commercial viability of these huge subs ... one question we hope to answer ... How much does 20 cubic feet of subs enhance the theater experience ...
The answer to the quote:
Quote:
The answer will range from 'not at all' to 'quite significantly'. It all depends on your room size and preferred playback level.
Ed is, of course, correct, IMO. :)

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post #118 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricocetj
Good point Bosso, this one made me laugh. As a longtime lurker, I've read a lot of the flame wars that seem to come up around here (especially when it comes to subwoofers), and I, for one, am hoping everyone can do their best to put aside personal differences here and work together to see what Craig can come up with.

This is supposed to be fun! Remember?
Hey Rico,

Glad you've decided to start posting around here :)

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post #119 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Update ... Each Alcove is 36 inches wide, and 26 inches deep. I thought it was deeper ... my bad. But still ... height is not an issue here ...

If we went 60 H x 24 D x 30 W it would still leave us about 500 liters for internal volume and also keep my bride happy.

Playing with WinISD Pro now ...
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post #120 of 919 Old 07-25-2006, 03:43 PM
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Reminds e of myself...100 home improvement projects going and none complete.
Hilarious, but oh so true. :)

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