The Ultimate shootout begins ... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The SoundsSplinter drivers are ordered, and I got a message from Mike today about the preferred design. As this thread is a combo of DIY and commercial subs, I decided to open the thread here, if someone wants to open a link in the DIY side, that is OK.

My brother's company, which, for now, will be left anonymous, will be doing the building. They have the CNC machines, and about a 10,000 square foot factory, with plans on expanding soon.

Mike Grynick has suggested the following for a vented design ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeGrynick
For vented, between 6 - 8.5 cu ft is generally preferred, with a tuning near 18 - 20 Hz. A solid 8.5 cu ft net volume, tuned to 18 Hz would be very sweet on the low end. Likewise, 6.35 cu ft @ 20 Hz would be more economical for someone looking to save some space, sport a lower F3, but obviously won't extend quite as low. For power, anywhere from 700-900 watts would be optimal. Port area should not fall below 35 square inches.
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post #2 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 11:08 AM
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Craig,

Did you post your shoot out comparisons on the DD18 and Maestro?

Regards,
Will
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post #3 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 11:09 AM
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I think the tuning should be lower then 18hz. I don't think a oversized dual 15" 8.5cu ft sub is worth the trouble without some real extension. I really think it should be tune to 15-14hz. That way, in room you should be flat to 10-12hz.

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post #4 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 11:16 AM
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Craig,

I don't know if it would be practical for this shootout, but I know you are not exactly practical anyways :D, but do you think it would be possible to try different types of amps with the sub?

I am currently using an ICEpower based amp to run my mains, and I know the ACI Maestro is now using an ICEpower based amp as well. So selfishly, I was wondering for subs, if amps of different technologies but same power output make any measureable or audible differences.

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post #5 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Gibbons
Craig,

Did you post your shoot out comparisons on the DD18 and Maestro?

Regards,
Will
Will .. I did post some ... but have not completed it yet. We are in the middle of swim season, and my oldest has done far better than we thought possible, which has caused us to travel a lot to some bigger swim meets.

It will get more attention before Labor Day ... The championship meet is this week, then we are off for a vacation next week. Look for a completion of the Maestro-Velo while the new subs are being built.
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post #6 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang
Craig,

I don't know if it would be practical for this shootout, but I know you are not exactly practical anyways :D, but do you think it would be possible to try different types of amps with the sub?

I am currently using an ICEpower based amp to run my mains, and I know the ACI Maestro is now using an ICEpower based amp as well. So selfishly, I was wondering for subs, if amps of different technologies but same power output make any measureable or audible differences.
Curtis ... One of the amps my brother uses is a DSP capable ICE amplifier ... it is actually able to be built into a subwoofer, and has a 4 band (90% sure on the number of bands) parametric EQ....

We may actually use it as the main amp ... depending on how things develop.
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post #7 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 11:27 AM
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Craig,

Thanks. I look forward to the comparisons and write up.

Regards,
Will
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post #8 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 11:31 AM
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Sounds like fun craig, I'm going to keep an eye on this.

- Jon
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post #9 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 11:34 AM
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So we can keep things crystal clear with this custom subwoofer of yours, will you be revealing the specs of the final design (including the amplifier) and taking pictures of the enclosure before it is closed off? Also, did you order the D2 or D4 version of the RLp15s?


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post #10 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
Curtis ... One of the amps my brother uses is a DSP capable ICE amplifier ... it is actually able to be built into a subwoofer, and has a 4 band (90% sure on the number of bands) parametric EQ....

We may actually use it as the main amp ... depending on how things develop.
Great!

Yes...I'll take the sub when you are done with it. :)

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post #11 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang
Great!

Yes...I'll take the sub when you are done with it. :)
Hey, I'm closer to Erie than you, Curtis. I'll act as customs for you and "inspect" the sub before it ships to Cali!!
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post #12 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOTDIGITY
Hey, I'm closer to Erie than you, Curtis. I'll act as customs for you and "inspect" the sub before it ships to Cali!!
and likewise....it'll never make it out of customs!

-curtis

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post #13 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang
and likewise....it'll never make it out of customs!
Curtis.....there's always a way To Insure Proper Service! ;)
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post #14 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 02:37 PM
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Some people get all the fun! :p

on a serious note craig, I'm wondering why such a high tuning point for the SS driver? Unless the parameters are just completely different than the current batch drivers (for example, the RP-L drivers), with 8.5 net cu volume (on say, a 15" or even 18" driver) you could easily tune it to 15hz flat! Using the RP-L15 on winISD yields an impressively flat FR at 15hz Fs, with an 8.5volume.

I'm curious on the details on these "new" drivers, as perhaps the coils, motor, etc, could be different thus causing the T/L params to be such as to require a higher Tuning point given the rather large Volume.

cool stuff nonetheless


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post #15 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 03:02 PM
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The drivers aren't different, he's just being suggested a traditional ported design.


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post #16 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 03:03 PM
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The dual Rl-P 15(d2 i assume) setup will obviously kick butt, but I decided to run it through unibox to see what kind of output to expect. I assumed 800watts/driver, rounded off the volume to 250 liters as it was close enough...
Tuned to 15hz
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79...rRL-P15800.gif
Tuned to 17hz
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79...erRL-P1517.gif
I assumed Le to be around 4.0, seeing as LS was 5.2 for the d2.

Only time will tell what the future holds...so until then JAM LIKE THERES NO TOMORROW!
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post #17 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 03:12 PM
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that's insane....

- Jon
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post #18 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exocer
The dual Rl-P 15(d2 i assume) setup will obviously kick butt, but I decided to run it through unibox to see what kind of output to expect. I assumed 800watts/driver, rounded off the volume to 250 liters as it was close enough...
Tuned to 15hz
I assumed Le to be around 4.0, seeing as LS was 5.2 for the d2.

:eek:

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post #19 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 03:57 PM
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DIY for the win. :p

-Chris B.



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post #20 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 04:02 PM
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Yeah fellas, imagine what could be done with a good design ;)


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post #21 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I got another e-mail from Mike ... here are some more of his thoughts regarding the design he prefers ....

Quote:
I see some users suggesting a lower tune. While I have seen customers do this, and you certainly can with great effect, it will require greater equalization for optimal performance and you will be losing SPL potential while you're at it. I personally would not tune below 17 Hz, but that's just me. Personal preference for the given frequency range will always play a role in the end user's final project.
Exocer, just for fun, can you run the same graphs at a 17 Hz tuning frequency as suggested by Mike ?

It could be interesting to see the sims compared.
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post #22 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo
Some people get all the fun! :p

on a serious note craig, I'm wondering why such a high tuning point for the SS driver? Unless the parameters are just completely different than the current batch drivers (for example, the RP-L drivers), with 8.5 net cu volume (on say, a 15" or even 18" driver) you could easily tune it to 15hz flat! Using the RP-L15 on winISD yields an impressively flat FR at 15hz Fs, with an 8.5volume.

I'm curious on the details on these "new" drivers, as perhaps the coils, motor, etc, could be different thus causing the T/L params to be such as to require a higher Tuning point given the rather large Volume.

cool stuff nonetheless
Sherv ... Nothing is cast in stone ... Mike G. from SoundSplinter has made his suggestions, and everyone is welcome to chime in.
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post #23 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
I got another e-mail from Mike ... here are some more of his thoughts regarding the design he prefers ....



Exocer, just for fun, can you run the same graphs at a 17 Hz tuning frequency as suggested by Mike ?

It could be interesting to see the sims compared.
The 2nd graph down is @ 17hz tuning, the first is @ 15hz tuning. Both with Mike's maximum suggested enclosure volume of around 8.5ft^3.

Only time will tell what the future holds...so until then JAM LIKE THERES NO TOMORROW!
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post #24 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 05:40 PM
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Craig,
What are the objectives of this shoot out? Are you going to compare a DIY sub to a commercial product in a $4$ comp? Are you going to compare a DIY ported to just ported subs or will you comp it to sealed subs as well?

What commercial products are you going to compare to?

With the DIY sub, is this going to be a Frankenstein design with all the AVS mad scientists contributing to it? Are you trying to make a DIY that would make a practical commercial offering (size, weight, cost)?

For us interested by-standers, will someone do the specs/results to common English translations?

Randy
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post #25 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exocer
The 2nd graph down is @ 17hz tuning, the first is @ 15hz tuning. Both with Mike's maximum suggested enclosure volume of around 8.5ft^3.
I just saw that. Thanks .... Mike is pretty convinced the 17 Hz is the best option. I would have thought the curves would be more dissimilar ...
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post #26 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub
Sherv ... Nothing is cast in stone ... Mike G. from SoundSplinter has made his suggestions, and everyone is welcome to chime in.

ahh! well in that case.... :D

swing for the fences my brotha....swing for the fences, and join teh dark side (vented sonotubes and boxes, a la Stevecallas and Sherv designs)... dual RP-L15 D2's in an 8.5cu volume enclosure, with a nice 10" pipe or dual 6" pipes, slap a Fs=15hz, and you will have something to cheer about that will make any Ultra/2 dual EP600s dual HO turbos (pick your poison, etc) look like child's play.

For a dual sub, the box enclosure will surely be easier to make than the sono, but again, let others chime in their 0.02 ;)


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post #27 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 06:10 PM
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Exocer - What size port are you using in your sims? Just wandering.

craigsub - That box size only seems big enough for a single driver. In 15hz tuning it only seems to gain you about 6db at 15hz over a sealed box at 250l, or 6db at 17hz in 17hz trim. An 8" port will have to be over 44" in a box that small to get the port speed down, but then you end up with a resonance at 141hz. A highpass will also be a must, not an option with this design. Maybe your boys in the factory can whip up two test boxes? :D

I'm sure we could get up some sort of MDF reimbursement fund going. I can pay-pal $10-20. ;)


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post #28 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Sherv ... Nothing is cast in stone ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo
ahh! well in that case.... :D
I found that funny :D :D :D it's all in the delivery :D

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post #29 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ransac ... The goal is to build a really kick ass subwoofer ... and see how it compares to the commercially available stuff, including SVS, Velo, and the new BMF from AV123 ...

And maybe we will have some fun.
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post #30 of 919 Old 07-24-2006, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
I would have thought the curves would be more dissimilar ...
There is more of a difference as the Vb increases.


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