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post #271 of 6781 Old 10-31-2006, 05:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Oh man, "do tell" was offensive to some of you?

I honestly meant that in a nice way. It was just easier to say "Do tell." rather than type out a lengthy unnecessary response. The guy acted like he knew, so I thought he could tell me. No harm done, right?

Must I send flowers and chocolate to the various posters like yourself before I post anything?

If any of my remarks have been disparaging, I am sorry.

Offensive ? No, just boring.
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post #272 of 6781 Old 10-31-2006, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Offensive ? No, just boring.

I love you too.
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post #273 of 6781 Old 10-31-2006, 05:53 PM
 
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thats what we need, more audiophile man love...... this maybe the wrong forum though
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post #274 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 04:29 AM
 
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Shaun of the Dead was its usual hilarious self last night. The Fathoms keep getting more impressive. After the movie, I watched some scenes contrasting the 113 to the Plus/2 ... and the 113 not only is more articulate, it also helps place the soundstage better.

There is a scene late in the movie where the bar owner has become a Zombie, and the "good guys" are pummeling him with pool cues. With the 113's in the system you could hear which side of the zombie was being hit, and you could feel it, too. With the Plus/2, you felt the thud, with none of the underlying directional abilities.

This points to a faster transient response and excellent linearity ... in plain language, it means the subwoofers and mains are producing sound simultaneously, and accurately, together.

The Fathom 113 pair also delivers in the WOW factor. Shaun of the Dead is full of some amazing bass tracks, and the 113's absolutely shake the room, and they do so even at moderate levels. Most subs require the sound track be played too loud, with the subs too hot, in order to get a nice tactile response.

The 113's don't require this.

They are SO good, I am changing what the plans for our final Soundsplinter design will be - look for the 2 15 inch drivers to be in a sealed cabinet.

If we can get CLOSE to the quality of a Fathom 113, I will be pretty happy.

To the design team on the 113's ... Congratulations. Your 2 year's worth of work is delivering the goods. This weekend, your 113 will get a one on one with the VTF-3 HO, then it will get a week against the DD-18.

May the best subwoofer win ...
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post #275 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 05:11 AM
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So Craig, ultimately, is your goal to find the perfect subs for permanent use?
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post #276 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post


The Fathom 113 pair also delivers in the WOW factor. Shaun of the Dead is full of some amazing bass tracks, and the 113's absolutely shake the room, and they do so even at moderate levels. Most subs require the sound track be played too loud, with the subs too hot, in order to get a nice tactile response.

The 113's don't require this.


My wife & I both noticed this affect even on a concrete floor. My Velodyne HGS-15 could not do this unless we had the db level turned up. Do you have a good explanation of what the difference could be Craig?

Dennis
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post #277 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 05:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by new27 View Post

So Craig, ultimately, is your goal to find the perfect subs for permanent use?

I am hoping to find a subwoofer system that I don't ever think "I wish it did __________________" ...

And, while doing so, this process has grown into something a bit more. As things progress, I will be putting together a catalog of the "best" subwoofers in the price category. Keep in mind that the best is based on my experience ... and is my opinion, plus the opinion of a lot of people who have been here to listen to them.

The least expensive subwoofer we have had is $200, the highest is $5000. That is a pretty broad sampling. Hopefully, it will be useful information.
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post #278 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 05:57 AM
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Although the LFE tract wasn't as gut wrenching as WOTW, there are a couple of special scenes in MI 3 where a helocopter is flying around several of the very large "windmills". The THUMP each time the blade of the large windmill turns is visceral!!

gthomas
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post #279 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 06:02 AM
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Craig, the only sub left to test is that one that looks like a fan

Sounds like the Fathom is the real deal. Too bad I can only read about such things
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post #280 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 06:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nethomas View Post

Although the LFE tract wasn't as gut wrenching as WOTW, there are a couple of special scenes in MI 3 where a helocopter is flying around several of the very large "windmills". The THUMP each time the blade of the large windmill turns is visceral!!


did you watch the standard version of MI3?

the HD-DVD version, as i mentioned before, was incredible. the scene on the bridge as the first truck gets hit and flips in the air......i was waiting for the truck to land...and i wasnt disappointed. overall great scene for the entire system, the f113 fit in perfectly.

the windmill scene was also great and the scene leading up to that where the building blows up provided great enjoyment as well.
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post #281 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

I find it fascinating that there people who think that listening to a speaker (and a subwoofer is a speaker) is not the final arbiter of its sound quality.

Amen but people who had F112's and F113's, and were saying how great they sounded were getting the standard do you have any numbers response, look how many people are jumping on the bandwagon after your post(much respect for your work but they are still taking your word albeit a very experienced one), if anyone here has doubts go listen to one you will be amazed
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post #282 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

I am hoping to find a subwoofer system that I don't ever think "I wish it did __________________" ...

dont we all?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

And, while doing so, this process has grown into something a bit more. As things progress, I will be putting together a catalog of the "best" subwoofers in the price category. Keep in mind that the best is based on my experience ... and is my opinion, plus the opinion of a lot of people who have been here to listen to them.

Careful here Craig.....you are just asking for trouble right here! In the past 3 years, numerous "debates" (or as I call them, pissing matches) have occurred to the fact that someone calls a speaker or subwoofer "the best"....there is NO such thing!

Best in what? SQ? that's very subjective!
Best in looks? do we need to even discuss this further?
Best balance? those who like deeper extension vs those with tighter bass will always disagree, so how can one say?

For anyone (not just you Craig, but anyone) to declare that one sub is the "best" in a particular price range, is just not correct, specially when so many people are quick to latch onto that and preach it as bible..........."Craigsub said the HSU HO+turbo is the best subwoofer under $1500, so you are an idiot if you buy something else" is undoubtedbly what will (and has been) said, and as you well know, it will only lead to more problems.

My humble, $2.00 and change, irrelevant, who am I to say, opinion is that you should post what YOU thought of in this venture between all the subs you tested, and surely you can rank them or assign "winners" as you like, so long as you make it extremely clear that they are just that: what YOUR EARS thought of them.

How many months are headaches, and bannings, and closed threads, etc, happened after your 5 person GTG last year? How many people were quick to point to that as the ultimate measuring stick into which sub is better, etc?

Ditto on the other side of the coin: Measuring subs is another excellent way of objectively describing a subs performance.........declaring a winner purely based on a graph is also not wise! I personally think there is a strong correlation between objective measurements and how a sub sounds, but that's just me.

anyways, hope I made sense....
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post #283 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 06:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

dont we all?!


Careful here Craig.....you are just asking for trouble right here! In the past 3 years, numerous "debates" (or as I call them, pissing matches) have occurred to the fact that someone calls a speaker or subwoofer "the best"....there is NO such thing!

Best in what? SQ? that's very subjective!
Best in looks? do we need to even discuss this further?
Best balance? those who like deeper extension vs those with tighter bass will always disagree, so how can one say?

For anyone (not just you Craig, but anyone) to declare that one sub is the "best" in a particular price range, is just not correct, specially when so many people are quick to latch onto that and preach it as bible..........."Craigsub said the HSU HO+turbo is the best subwoofer under $1500, so you are an idiot if you buy something else" is undoubtedbly what will (and has been) said, and as you well know, it will only lead to more problems.

My humble, $2.00 and change, irrelevant, who am I to say, opinion is that you should post what YOU thought of in this venture between all the subs you tested, and surely you can rank them or assign "winners" as you like, so long as you make it extremely clear that they are just that: what YOUR EARS thought of them.

How many months are headaches, and bannings, and closed threads, etc, happened after your 5 person GTG last year? How many people were quick to point to that as the ultimate measuring stick into which sub is better, etc?

Ditto on the other side of the coin: Measuring subs is another excellent way of objectively describing a subs performance.........declaring a winner purely based on a graph is also not wise! I personally think there is a strong correlation between objective measurements and how a sub sounds, but that's just me.

anyways, hope I made sense....

Sherv .. AS you decided to put "I" as an extremely large letter, and ignore the rest of the body of the post, it is pretty clear that you did not quite "get" it. Please re-read what I wrote in its entirety. It is pretty clear that I said "in my opinion".

Anyone who does not agree with the final results is welcome to disagree.

For the record, and for the what, 1583rd time ??, I understand that objective data is important. However, it is in listening that the final decision needs to be made.

If anyone is confused by that position, please let me know, ok ?

If someone can point me to a single post in which one person called another an idiot, as suggested by this quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sherv View Post

Craigsub said the HSU HO+turbo is the best subwoofer under $1500, so you are an idiot if you buy something else" is undoubtedbly what will (and has been) said.

Please let me know, ok ? I don't recall this ever happening.
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post #284 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Sherv .. AS you decided to put "I" as an extremely large letter, and ignore the rest of the body of the post, it is pretty clear that you did not quite "get" it. Please re-read what I wrote in its entirety. It is pretty clear that I said "in my opinion".

geezus, what's with everyone here telling people "you don't "get" it ", and insinuating lack of comprehension, etc?? did you and SteveC take the same class or something?

that is EXACTLY why I bolded the entire sentence.....not just the word "I" did you not see that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

If someone can point me to a single post in which one person called another an idiot, as suggested by this quote:
Please let me know, ok ? I don't recall this ever happening.

I didn't say YOU called anyone names, i said the comment has been said by others, ....if interested, we can take this offline and I will show you.



anyways, seems like tension is as usual here, so I'm out.....I simply wanted to point that out so that others dont jump to conclusions not only to your posted "opinions" but also to avoid people attacking you and misenterpreting you as they have in the past, but ok....

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post #285 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 07:02 AM
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Craig, have you ever thought about buying a 18" lms5400 & throwing it in a sealed box? It would be interesting to see what that could do against other expensive sealed options. And since you seem to prefer the sound of a sealed sub, I cant think of a better diy project for you to do rather than the 2 15" SS subs. I would sell my pb12+2 & spend a little and buy that driver, but then I would have to spend alot on a 3000watt amp to drive it.
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post #286 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by meeks32 View Post

I cant think of a better diy project for you to do rather than the 2 15" SS subs

yup!

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Originally Posted by meeks32 View Post

I would sell my pb12+2 & spend a little and buy that driver, but then I would have to spend alot on a 3000watt amp to drive it.

yes, it is NOT a cheap solution by any means, but it is soooo tempting, isnt it? that LMS5400 has soo much potential in both ported and sealed alignments.

one 18" 5400, in a sealed enclosure, with an ICE amp + BASSIS, and my friend, you would have one to REALLY talk about in the forums!

or one 18" 5400 in a large sonotube, tuned to 12 hz, with an EP2500+DEQ2496 or a Crown XTi, and just kill your dog before hand!



oh snap, I forgot, I was supposed to be out of this thread.....
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post #287 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 07:33 AM
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Here's one more vote for a 5400 in a sealed box vs. the top sealed commercial offerings. This would be a great read, and much like the decision I see myself making in the next few months...
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post #288 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 07:33 AM
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This is the main reason I am a Professional Lurker here. I hate to count how many threads are ruined by personal attacks.

When you use someones quote, why would want to take it out of context by capitalizing ( a 1 inch high I ) certain areas to make YOUR point. In my opinion, this can only be taken by the original poster as an personal attack. If you have a question, ask it, instead of statements. If your not sure what was meant, ask? I could go on for ever when it comes to using a little common sense before you post. I still hope this thread does not go south, like a lot of others have.

I really enjoy my new sub & I hope to be able to see Craig's subjective opinions & objective analysis off all the subs.

Thank You

Dennis
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post #289 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 07:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

geezus, what's with everyone here telling people "you don't "get" it ", and insinuating lack of comprehension, etc?? did you and SteveC take the same class or something?

that is EXACTLY why I bolded the entire sentence.....not just the word "I" did you not see that?


I didn't say YOU called anyone names, i said the comment has been said by others, ....if interested, we can take this offline and I will show you.



anyways, seems like tension is as usual here, so I'm out.....I simply wanted to point that out so that others dont jump to conclusions not only to your posted "opinions" but also to avoid people attacking you and misenterpreting you as they have in the past, but ok....


Sherv, I never said that you said I called others names. And Please, PM me with information in which people called others an "idiot" because someone disagreed with a review/opinion of mine.

Quite frankly, in this thread, the primary problems with tension have been you and WillD. Other than you 2, this has been pretty peaceful.

For example ... Here was my statement about the subwoofers, taken as a whole:

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

And, while doing so, this process has grown into something a bit more. As things progress, I will be putting together a catalog of the "best" subwoofers in the price category. Keep in mind that the best is based on my experience ... and is my opinion, plus the opinion of a lot of people who have been here to listen to them.

The part I put into bold is the part you ignored.
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post #290 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 08:25 AM
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Ssabripo,

Which ice amp are you talking about ?

I too would like to see a 18" LMS w/ 2000w of power in a sealed box.

This diy project would cost about $2K using a EP2500..

Heck you could add a DEQ2496 and it would still be around <$2.5K

Anyway craigsub, thanks for all the effort...

Regards,
Jose
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post #291 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
the primary problems with tension have been you and WillD

Please, if I caused any tension, it wasn't intentional. I never said anything negative about any of these subs here or how you were testing them. I was simply talking about any possible correlation between measurements and opinion of sound quality. You imagined this "tension".

Have a good day,
Will

PS. When will you get the MFW-15? I saw that Mark hasn't updated the thread for it on AV123. I'll admit, I am a bit anxious to see how it fares against the competition.
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post #292 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Sherv, I never said that you said I called others names. And Please, PM me with information in which people called others an "idiot" because someone disagreed with a review/opinion of mine.

I will...check your box in a couple of min

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Quite frankly, in this thread, the primary problems with tension have been you and WillD. Other than you 2, this has been pretty peaceful.

huh?????
that's totally false and uncalled for craig...I haven't even participated in this thread until my last post!!!!!! This is THE ONLY other post I've made in this entire thread prior to the one above:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8670359

so how exactly am I causing tension in this thread, if I haven't even participated in it??????

Like I said, I merely pointed out that you should be careful when and if you post "best" subwoofers on how you word it, that's all, so that you don't get attacked like you have in the past.... like a friend or a neighbor telling another to be careful when they drive thru X neighborhood and to keep their eyes open....

but hey, suit yourself....rather than saying "point taken Sherv" you went on an all out backfire....I just dont get it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

The part I put into bold is the part you ignored.

As I just explained it to you, i did not ignore anything you said....I just bolded the part I thought should be taken with care, because you of all people should know that there are many here and other forums that love to jump on your case at the first opportunity.

oh well....lessoned learned on my end: Never EVER try to make a friendly advice/warning...will lead to friendly Fire! I'll just revert back to my usual stance of sitting back and enjoying the fireworks.............

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post #293 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 09:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose_L View Post

Ssabripo,

Which ice amp are you talking about ?

I too would like to see a 18" LMS w/ 2000w of power in a sealed box.

This diy project would cost about $2K using a EP2500..

Heck you could add a DEQ2496 and it would still be around <$2.5K

Anyway craigsub, thanks for all the effort...

Regards,
Jose

Here is the dual Soundsplinter set up in an 8^3 foot sealed enclosure:



Here is the TC Sounds 5400 vs. the dual driver SS in the same size sealed enclosure (Both using the Behringer EP-2500)

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post #294 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 09:08 AM
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Would you consider it, Craig?

Still nice to see you trying the Rl-p's in a sealed enclosure.
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post #295 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 09:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Would you consider it, Craig?

Still nice to see you trying the Rl-p's in a sealed enclosure.

I will consider anything ... For now, this thread is about the Fathom 113, though, and we need to get it back on track.

I only posted the Soundsplinter model to give people an idea of the competition between a credible DIY project vs. the Fathom.

Off on another biz trip .. See you guys thursday night ...
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post #296 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose_L View Post

Ssabripo,

Which ice amp are you talking about ?

I too would like to see a 18" LMS w/ 2000w of power in a sealed box.

This diy project would cost about $2K using a EP2500..

Heck you could add a DEQ2496 and it would still be around <$2.5K

Anyway craigsub, thanks for all the effort...

Regards,
Jose

we can take it offline outside this thread, as this is offtopic from the point of this thread.....oh, and I already posted it on the TCforums: $1150 for driver, $550 for ep2500+DEQ, $300 for sono/wood/paint/etc...we can talk off line.
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post #297 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 01:10 PM
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So anyway... going back to the Fathom, Is anyone else here in BC Canada lookin into getting the f113 in the near future? I'm close to pulling the trigger but the canadian price seems absurd, anyone else in this boat? (The MSRP has gone up recently apparently)
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post #298 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

The F113 is a very good performer. I took some TrueRTA charts at about 3 meters from both it and the SVS PB12-Plus/2 with the WOTW Lightning scene.

Here is the Plus/2 on WOTW.



And the Fathom 113




I know the f113 is much more expensive, but it still amazes me that a single 13" driver in a much smaller cabinet has that much more output than the dual 12" Plus/2 monster down low! Yeah, the Plus/2 was tuned to 20Hz, but if it's tuned to 16Hz it is pretty well underported for higher SPL's and it will also suffer in the higher 20Hz-50Hz range as far as lower output.

If it sounds subjectively as good as everyone who has heard one say it does, it seems JL Audio has quite a product on thier hands. I's not cheap, but then again it is relatively small (which is a very important WAF) and has solid output down to 15Hz and below. I think I am going to try one out and see what I think for myself.

Thanks for all the info shared here!
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post #299 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MusicFirst View Post

I know the f113 is much more expensive, but it still amazes me that a single 13" driver in a much smaller cabinet has that much more output than the dual 12" Plus/2 monster down low!


Why would it be..... THis is exactly what you expect to see...

The Dual 12 is a ported design whose primary effect is to be most efficient at its port tunning frequency which is why you get the bang for the buck.. Lots of SPL at 20hz with only 1000 watts of power...

The Sealed 13 is very inefficient in design and requires alot of power to compete with a ported design.. which is why the F113 requires 2500 watts of power....

This really is not a fair comparison... These boxes, because of their design are exactly what youd expect them to be....

Ported => BIG(LowWAF), LessAmpPower(LowerCost), Non-linear response
Sealed => Small(HighWAF), Gobs of AmpPower(Expensive given space and heat requirements), and Linear response.
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post #300 of 6781 Old 11-01-2006, 03:28 PM
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How many sealed 12"-13" subs can compete SPL wise with the Plus/2 even at 20Hz. None of the Velodyne 12" models can that I know of. Is there anything else on the market that can? That is my point. Yes, as far as price it is not a fair comparison. But the point is there really are not any other sealed subs of this size that can do what the f113 does. In fact down around 15-18Hz (from Craigs graphs) it seems it would take two Plus/2's to equal the f113 in output in that freq. range. Which actually brings them much closer in price as far as producing the same SPL in that freq. range. And of course two Plus/2 are much bigger than one f113!
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