JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipse911t

...I'm also looking for a new line of subs to sell as my reference small subwoofer. (Snell Sub24 is my current reference, but it is too big for most clients.)

JL Audio also has the new f110, a 10" sub with A.R.O.

From the JL press release:

Specifications:
Enclosure Type: Sealed
Driver: Single 10-inch (nominal diameter)
Effective Piston Area: 60 square inches
Effective Displacement: 160 cu.in. (2.6 liters)
Amplifier Power: 900 Watts RMS short-term
Dimensions (H x W x D), including feet and grille:
15.64 inches x 12.92 inches x 17.27 inches
(397 mm x 328 mm x 439 mm)
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post #362 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 08:55 AM
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I saw that model in the pricing info I got, but this is the first I've heard of it outside of from dealers. I'm eager to compare it to some of the other smaller offerings.

Patrick
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post #363 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 08:56 AM
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my info says the f110 MSRP = $2000
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post #364 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 09:05 AM
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I suspect that the F110 will somewhat compare to the Velo DD-12. Maybe a little more output, but then again, its box is around 15% larger. Seems to me that the whole point of these high excursion woofers is to be able to shrink the size of the sub and not lose performance, no? This is also the point of the Velodyne DD's and Sunfires. If the performance of JL woofers is that superior, it will indeed be a wake-up call to both Velo and Sunfire, but you really have to eliminate box size from the equation. The F113 box is not tiny by any means.
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post #365 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

The DD18 has the output capability of TWO DD15's and based on some rough math, the f113 should have about the same if not slightly more output capability than a single DD15 (even though the DD15 has a driver with almost twice the surface area of the f113, the f113 has slightly more than twice the linear excursion). Of course output capability is not the end-all subwoofer performance parameter, but since both subs have been noted to have exceptional sound quality, this may be one area that separates the two, if only slightly. The DD15 does have the advantage of the more sophisticated room EQ function with a full video display of the room response.

FWIW the DD15 and the f113 are also roughly the same size and I wouldn't consider either of them small. Medium sized for an audiophile and large sized for the rest of the world. Small to me is one of those little one cubic foot Sunfire units.

Looking forward to the subjective test between the DD18 and the f113. I think the DD will win, but I'm keeping an open mind.

Just for a little sanity check here, the DD18 hardly has the performance of 2 DD15s. The differences are only about 3dB down low increasing to 4-5dB stronger above 40Hz. I fully expect the f113 to have greater dynamic capability than the DD18 down low, with the DD18 having lower measured THD. Of course straight THD doesn't always correlate to what is audible.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
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post #366 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 09:31 AM
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Question...

After looking at the monstrous magnet structure of these woofs, I'm curious to know whether or not they're shielded. I'm guessing that if not, they could purple up a tv from 5-6 ft away!
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post #367 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 10:09 AM
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Perhaps, but what's he likely-hood of this sub going into a CRT based HT that is small enough to cause this problem. I am sure it won't be a problem with our clients. It may be a problem among some enthusiasts here, but you guys are the problem solving type, yes?

Patrick
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post #368 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Just for a little sanity check here, the DD18 hardly has the performance of 2 DD15s. The differences are only about 3dB down low increasing to 4-5dB stronger above 40Hz. I fully expect the f113 to have greater dynamic capability than the DD18 down low, with the DD18 having lower measured THD. Of course straight THD doesn't always correlate to what is audible.

The DD18 has a surface area of 181.5 inches while the DD15 has a surface area of only 126.7 inches. So to be more factual, the DD18 is equal to 1.4 DD15's. My mistake. I was thinking of the difference between the DD12 and the DD15, which is closer to two times the output.

I'll also admit that my rough math on the output of the DD18 vs f113 was considerably off.

msmith_JL with JL audio has stated that the effective displacement of the f113 is 386 cu.in.

Peak to peak excursion x effective piston area = Effective displacement
f113: 3.6 x 107.35= 386 cu.in.
DD18: 1.25 x 181.5 = 226 cu. in.

It now seems that the f113 will handily beat the DD18.

Looks like I might be replacing my DD15 with the f113 in the future. Same size box with more output than a DD18! Holy crap that f113 has wicked excursion!
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post #369 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 10:53 AM
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Another simpleton question...

Even though the amp is rated at 2500 watts, how can it suck more power than a standard 15A circuit is rated to put out (1800 watts) without tripping breakers? Perhaps most folks now have 20A service?
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post #370 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 11:38 AM
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And if your running 2 F113s on a 15A circuit do you risk an electrical fire?
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post #371 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Peak to peak excursion x effective piston area = Effective displacement
f113: 3.6 x 107.35= 386 cu.in.
DD18: 1.25 x 181.5 = 226 cu. in.

It now seems that the f113 will handily beat the DD18.

Looks like I might be replacing my DD15 with the f113 in the future. Same size box with more output than a DD18! Holy crap that f113 has wicked excursion!

usually, 18" drivers end up being more sensitive than smaller ones...we know that the original 13w7 has ~86 dB sensitivity...unless this has been raised with the two HTW7 implementations then it may end up being a wash for output, with distortion performance going to the DD-18...

"Frequency response is NOT efficiency response."

 

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post #372 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

The DD18 has a surface area of 181.5 inches while the DD15 has a surface area of only 126.7 inches. So to be more factual, the DD18 is equal to 1.4 DD15's. My mistake. I was thinking of the difference between the DD12 and the DD15, which is closer to two times the output.

I'll also admit that my rough math on the output of the DD18 vs f113 was considerably off.

msmith_JL with JL audio has stated that the effective displacement of the f113 is 386 cu.in.

Peak to peak excursion x effective piston area = Effective displacement
f113: 3.6 x 107.35= 386 cu.in.
DD18: 1.25 x 181.5 = 226 cu. in.

It now seems that the f113 will handily beat the DD18.

Looks like I might be replacing my DD15 with the f113 in the future. Same size box with more output than a DD18! Holy crap that f113 has wicked excursion!

Just so you know, you're using the linear excursion for the DD18 calculation but not for the f113's. That isn't exactly fair, but yes, the 113 still has a higher displacement.
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post #373 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 12:00 PM
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Yes, and the DD-18 also has a higher displacement as well. I thought I once read that the Velo's peak to peak is limited to around 2". Like Willd said, LINEAR is what counts. And btw, I'd rather push a larger driver a smaller distance than a smaller driver a larger one.
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post #374 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 12:57 PM
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One of the advantages a manufacture like JL Audio brings to the party is the capacity to manipulate every facit of the design and engineering process. Most other manufactures are not able to do this. They must source a driver and an amplifier (if an active design), and then match them to an enclosure design that is best suited to the drivers' parameters and the intended performance goals.

JL, on the other hand, can design and manufacture (in house) the optimum driver motor for an intended box dimension and then develop and build the appropriate electronics to join all the elements. All manufactures do battle with the same laws of physics. JL Audio just has more sophisticated weaponry.
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post #375 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 01:22 PM
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Yes, building your own driver does indeed have its advantages. Precious few companies do this. I'm not sure, but I think that Velodyne does as well.
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post #376 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 02:51 PM
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AudioArchitect wrote:

"Our DD-12 sounded muddy and weak compared to the Fathom".

Well, I can understand "weak", but I've never heard any of the DD's described as "muddy" before. Being a DD owner, I wonder if AudioArchitect might be kind enough to expound on the "muddy" thing?

Ran
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post #377 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 02:59 PM
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I'm also still waiting for the 2500 watts from a 15 amp circuit. Or the 3800 from the Gotham. I realize big amps have big caps and that makes a difference, but I've also seen some big amps with some big power requirements as well. Boulder amps come to mind.

Any definitive answers? Manville?

Thanks in advance,
Patrick
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post #378 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 04:00 PM
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1) A "15 Amp" circuit is capable of delivering well over 15 amps for short periods without danger and without tripping breakers. Usually 30 amps for well over a couple of seconds is attainable. This headroom is there to account for high on-rush current demands from appliances. This headroom gives even a Gotham enough room to operate off a standard outlet. A pair of Fathoms can trip a 15A breaker, but usually only with extended test tones at very high SPL levels. A single Fathom won't trip a breaker in our experience. We utilize highly efficient Class D (switching) amplifiers which also helps keep current demands down.

2) The "2500 watt" figure is based on the rail voltage of the amplifier referenced to the nominal driver impedance (3 ohms). Throughout most of the bass range, the actual impedance is significantly higher than 3 ohms and will not demand that much power be produced (although the rail voltages remain high and equivalent to 2500 W into 3 ohms). This phenomenon (hardly unique to our products) helps keep current drawn from the outlet at manageable levels in real world use. Were you to connect the Fathom amplifier to a 3 ohm resistive load, you would definitely run into problems... but since this is a closed system and we know its impedance characteristics, we can run things pretty close to the limit without getting in trouble.

Best regards,

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JL Audio, Inc.
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post #379 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Just so you know, you're using the linear excursion for the DD18 calculation but not for the f113's. That isn't exactly fair, but yes, the 113 still has a higher displacement.

You're right. Even with linear excursion though, the f113 has 290 cu. in. of displacement compared to the DD18's 226 cu. in.. Pretty remarkable that a 13" driver can outperform an 18" driver, then again the with the servo in the DD18 the distortion will be lower which could make it sound subjectively better. Suppose it depends on the room size the the actual output needed.
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post #380 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 05:49 PM
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2Manville: I'm surprised that JL Audio has to hide behind "marketing ploys..."The "2500 watt" figure is based on the rail voltage of the amplifier referenced to the nominal driver impedance (3 ohms) ".
What is the actual continues power of your amp? 1000 watts? 150 watts? After all, you are not the only company that uses class D amps. Regardless of the number, I'm very happy with the performance of my f113, but without the marketing BS.
Further more, I was somewhat suprised that when Canadian Customs called JL Audio to inquire if the parts were made in USA, and the official response by JL Audio was that it "only assembles the subs" in US. So that begs the question where are the speakers, amp, etc. made? And again, I will say, that f113 blew me away, regardless were it was made. But fact are facts...no? Can you enlighten us?
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post #381 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theranman View Post

Yes, and the DD-18 also has a higher displacement as well. I thought I once read that the Velo's peak to peak is limited to around 2". Like Willd said, LINEAR is what counts. And btw, I'd rather push a larger driver a smaller distance than a smaller driver a larger one.


The peak to peak MAY be 2", but the only mention I could find of the excursion of the DD line is in their brochure, which says, "greater than 1-1/4 inches".

Here's the brochure. The mention of the excursion of the drivers is on the third page in the section titled "Driver Technology: Dual Tandem Voice Coil
and Kevlar-Reinforced Cones".

http://www.velodyne.com/velodyne/pro...al%20drive.pdf
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post #382 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

You're right. Even with linear excursion though, the f113 has 290 cu. in. of displacement compared to the DD18's 226 cu. in.. Pretty remarkable that a 13" driver can outperform an 18" driver, then again the with the servo in the DD18 the distortion will be lower which could make it sound subjectively better. Suppose it depends on the room size the the actual output needed.

Its doesn't surprise me at all that a smaller driver can have significantly higher displacement.
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post #383 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theranman

AudioArchitect wrote:

"Our DD-12 sounded muddy and weak compared to the Fathom".

Well, I can understand "weak", but I've never heard any of the DD's described as "muddy" before. Being a DD owner, I wonder if AudioArchitect might be kind enough to expound on the "muddy" thing?

I don't want to answer for AudioArchitect, but I auditioned the DD-12 and DD-15 and was also considering two SVS SB12+ with the Velo SVS-1. Subjectively, the f113 has a more natural or realistic presence than the Velodyne or SVS IMO.

The Velodyne DD's are very good but the f113 presents a more convincing sound stage especially when listening to LFE and music at the same time in a movie. Everything is "compared to what" and I would call the sound from the DD's unfocussed or smeared compared to the f113. I hope you have a chance to listen to the f113, hear the difference, and judge for yourself.
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post #384 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 06:14 PM
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Craigsub or msmith_JL:

I currently own the Velodyne DD15, and my question is, would I benefit or do I need the extra output of the f113?

The DD15 is in a 2700 cu foot room that has a single door opening to the kitchen, which is about the same size as the room the sub is in. I have cranked my system (temporarily) to volumes much louder than I would normally listen (100+ dB) and the DD15 never sounded like it had reached it its limit, but there are times that I wish there was more "slam" and "impact". I do have a dip at 50Hz in my primary listening position, which doesn't help matters, but even when I step out of that null, I still wish there were more slam. I want to be startled, I want my pants to flap and I want to be smacked in the chest with bass power.

FWIW I had the DD18 for a few months, giving it up because it was just too huge, but even with that sub I wanted more punch.
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post #385 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

The peak to peak MAY be 2", but the only mention I could find of the excursion of the DD line is in their brochure, which says, "greater than 1-1/4 inches".

Here's the brochure. The mention of the excursion of the drivers is on the third page in the section titled "Driver Technology: Dual Tandem Voice Coil
and Kevlar-Reinforced Cones".

http://www.velodyne.com/velodyne/pro...al%20drive.pdf

Hifisponge, they must have been talking about one-way excursion in their brochure! So greater than 2.5" peak-to-peak.
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post #386 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klipschster View Post

2Manville: I'm surprised that JL Audio has to hide behind "marketing ploys..."The "2500 watt" figure is based on the rail voltage of the amplifier referenced to the nominal driver impedance (3 ohms) ".
What is the actual continues power of your amp? 1000 watts? 150 watts? After all, you are not the only company that uses class D amps. Regardless of the number, I'm very happy with the performance of my f113, but without the marketing BS.
Further more, I was somewhat suprised that when Canadian Customs called JL Audio to inquire if the parts were made in USA, and the official response by JL Audio was that it "only assembles the subs" in US. So that begs the question where are the speakers, amp, etc. made? And again, I will say, that f113 blew me away, regardless were it was made. But fact are facts...no? Can you enlighten us?

Klipschter... I understand where you're coming from... let me see if I can explain your points one by one.

Amplifier power is always stated into a resistive load and this is generally based on the nominal impedance of the expected speaker load. If you were to buy a stand-alone amplifier that could do what the Fathom f113's amplifier can do, it would need to be able to produce 2500 watts into a 3 ohm resistive load. The fact that the actual driver impedance varies is not unique to the Fathom, it is a common and well-understood behavior of any loudspeaker... a "3 ohm" speaker in a box might have an impedance of 40 ohms or more at resonance, for example. As you move higher or lower in the bass range the impedance decreases in a sealed enclosure.

The fact is that the Fathom's amplifier can comfortably produce 2500W into 3 ohms for a fairly long period of time (several seconds), although not forever and ever because it would overheat if asked to do so for more than a minute or so. At very low frequencies (sub 20 Hz) the amplifier can in fact be called upon to produce power of that magnitude in typical use... and that power is needed in order to get the low frequency extension with high output that the product is capable of. By accounting for the duty cycle demanded by HT or music program material and by balancing the amplifier's needs relative to the actual impedance of the system, we can manage heat and current draw without having to dial back dynamic capability. The "short-term" RMS power I'm referring to should not be confused with "peak power" which is good for only fractions of a second.

Once again, if you were building a Fathom-like product with an outboard amp... it would need to be a 2500W amplifier into 3 ohms, just like the Fathom's amp, in order to deliver the performance of a Fathom... that's why we refer to it that way.

As for the origin of the Fathom, it is quite an international collaboration (as are most audio products nowadays). The drivers are manufactured in Miramar, Florida with components parts sourced in the U.S. and overseas (things like magnets and baskets, for example). The amplifier and processor modules are manufactured overseas. All final assembly and testing is done in Miramar, Florida. In order to qualify as "MADE IN USA" it has to be 51% American parts by value, which is not the case. This is why it is labeled "Manufactured in USA with Imported and Domestic Components" and why Canadian Customs gave you that response. We file our origin documentation following the letter of the law and do not play games with labeling, never have. There are very few speaker or electronic products that meet "MADE IN USA" standards nowadays. One could write a whole book about why that is the case, but I'll leave it at that for now.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
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post #387 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Marcks View Post

Hifisponge, they must have been talking about one-way excursion in their brochure! So greater than 2.5" peak-to-peak.

I googled "Velodyne DD excursion" and found a review of the DD18 in Stereophile that states "(the DD18 has) an 18" dual-coil woofer with a linear excursion of 1.25" peak-peak".
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post #388 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 07:42 PM
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2Manville: Thank you for the clarification between "short-term" RMS power and "peak power", and the "US content...51% American parts by value", since that was not my impression (and I wish I knew that at the customs), that I got from this forum. Much appreciated...f113 rocks!...and thanx again.
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post #389 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

I googled "Velodyne DD excursion" and found a review of the DD18 in Stereophile that states "(the DD18 has) an 18" dual-coil woofer with a linear excursion of 1.25" peak-peak".

Oh yes, you were talking about linear excursion capability, that would certainly be more plausible.
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post #390 of 6781 Old 11-04-2006, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith_JL View Post

Klipschter... I understand where you're coming from... let me see if I can explain your points one by one.

Amplifier power is always stated into a resistive load and this is generally based on the nominal impedance of the expected speaker load. If you were to buy a stand-alone amplifier that could do what the Fathom f113's amplifier can do, it would need to be able to produce 2500 watts into a 3 ohm resistive load. The fact that the actual driver impedance varies is not unique to the Fathom, it is a common and well-understood behavior of any loudspeaker... a "3 ohm" speaker in a box might have an impedance of 40 ohms or more at resonance, for example. As you move higher or lower in the bass range the impedance decreases in a sealed enclosure.

The fact is that the Fathom's amplifier can comfortably produce 2500W into 3 ohms for a fairly long period of time (several seconds), although not forever and ever because it would overheat if asked to do so for more than a minute or so. At very low frequencies (sub 20 Hz) the amplifier can in fact be called upon to produce power of that magnitude in typical use... and that power is needed in order to get the low frequency extension with high output that the product is capable of. By accounting for the duty cycle demanded by HT or music program material and by balancing the amplifier's needs relative to the actual impedance of the system, we can manage heat and current draw without having to dial back dynamic capability. The "short-term" RMS power I'm referring to should not be confused with "peak power" which is good for only fractions of a second.

Once again, if you were building a Fathom-like product with an outboard amp... it would need to be a 2500W amplifier into 3 ohms, just like the Fathom's amp, in order to deliver the performance of a Fathom... that's why we refer to it that way.

As for the origin of the Fathom, it is quite an international collaboration (as are most audio products nowadays). The drivers are manufactured in Miramar, Florida with components parts sourced in the U.S. and overseas (things like magnets and baskets, for example). The amplifier and processor modules are manufactured overseas. All final assembly and testing is done in Miramar, Florida. In order to qualify as "MADE IN USA" it has to be 51% American parts by value, which is not the case. This is why it is labeled "Manufactured in USA with Imported and Domestic Components" and why Canadian Customs gave you that response. We file our origin documentation following the letter of the law and do not play games with labeling, never have. There are very few speaker or electronic products that meet "MADE IN USA" standards nowadays. One could write a whole book about why that is the case, but I'll leave it at that for now.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.


Manville,
Isn't this really the same issue that Bob Carver took some heat for about a decade ago with his True Subwoofer amps? The Sunfire ads claimed a very high output, but Bob had to explain that various factors (impedence, back-emf, etc.) limited the "real" amp output to roughly 250-300 watts.
Just out of curiousity, is the "linear" throw of the subs in the 60mm+ peak-to-peak range (i.e., are they a form of linear motor toplogy, like TC's LMT, where driver in linear through most of it's operating range)?
JP
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