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post #4411 of 6776 Old 09-21-2008, 04:09 PM
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Have the D-box demos gotten better? I tried a demo more than a two years ago and I felt really sick. The concept was cool, but it ended up feeling like I was in one of those simulation rides.
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post #4412 of 6776 Old 09-22-2008, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Titus View Post

The McIntosh LS-360's are also a "ported" design. The ports are probably "tuned" to about 32 to 35 Hz, (the speakers are -3 dB @ 29 Hz.) Crossing them over at 80 Hz to the F113's takes the ports out of play for the most part."

Were would you (guess) the best crossover is using the LS 360's
Is taking the Ports out of play, what I need to do for the best sound?

Ports provide efficient extension of the bass response. They also introduce some group delay that, by itself, is not usually audible. However, when mated with sealed subs, (which don't have much group delay), you can get phase issues between the subs and speakers. Therefore, taking the ports out of play in the speakers can make the *system* work better. It can also make it easier to place the speakers where they image the best and present the best soundstage without having to be concerned about their bass response.

The crossover in most Bass Management systems is a 12 dB/octave filter. If you set the crossover at 80 Hz, the input level will be down 12 dB at 40 Hz and approximately another +/-6 dB by 30 Hz. A 100 Hz crossover will be down 12 dB at 50 Hz and another 8 to 10 dB at 30 Hz. A 60 Hz crossover will be down 12 dB at 30 Hz.

However, these are just the *input* levels. The actual in-room level will be impacted significantly by the room and placement. Therefore, it's hard to say just how much lower the in-room level will be from the ported mains with a 60, 80 or 100 Hz crossover. Nonetheless, the more you can take the ports out of the equation, the less phase issues you'll have between the mains and the subs.

I would try all three crossovers and any others you have available. Just be aware that, the higher you set the crossover, the more likely you are to have localization of the subs. I would definitely not advise a crossover above 100 Hz. 80 Hz is most likely to be the best compromise of localization vs. impacting the phase issues, but it doesn't hurt to try them all.

Craig

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post #4413 of 6776 Old 09-22-2008, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesK8 View Post

Have the D-box demos gotten better? I tried a demo more than a two years ago and I felt really sick. The concept was cool, but it ended up feeling like I was in one of those simulation rides.

The D-Box demo in the D-Box room was interesting. They played the scene from Live Free Or Die Hard where the fighter jet is chasing the semi driven by Bruce Wills. At one point, the semi is going around a corner and is close to tipping over. The D-box leaned you over to the point where you *felt* the inertia of the truck tipping up on it's side. In another scene, the truck is trying to drive up a steeply banked section of bridge that had been destroyed by a missile from the fighter jet. The truck gets almost to the top and starts to skid backwards. The D-Box leaned you backward in the seat to the point that you *felt* like you were falling with the truck. In addition, there were lots of shakes, bumps, wiggles and vibrations with all the explosions and the movements of the truck.

When the scene was finished, they replayed parts of it without the actuators. The experience was definitely different without the motion. Overall, it was interesting, but I could certainly see how some people could get "motion sickness".

When I got home from the show, I replayed this scene on my system with the Crowson transducer. It had the vibrations, bumps and shakes, without the exaggerated motion. I actually *preferred* the scene on my system. I have also watched this scene at a friends house who's HT is on the second floor of his home. The suspended floor provides as much or more motion than my transducer, and that was actually the *best* and most natural rendition of the motion. If I ever build another HT, it will be on a suspended floor, not a concrete basement floor.

Craig

Oh, and did I mention how *ridiculously* expensive the system is??? I would never consider spending the $$$ on that system. However, I did learn that Crowson is working with D-Box on a modification that will allow their transducer to read the "Motion Code" track on many of the newer BluRay discs. The transducer is not capable of the exaggerated 3-dimensional motion, so it will ignore that part of the recording. However, it will use the rest of the info to create the shaking and vibration. Having a separate signal will provide much more control over the transducer and allow for different crossover and filter settings independent of the subwoofer track.

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post #4414 of 6776 Old 09-22-2008, 09:59 AM
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Does this sub-woofer heat up?
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post #4415 of 6776 Old 09-22-2008, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

Does this sub-woofer heat up?

I have yet to be able to get mine to break a sweat

Mine runs very cool actually.
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post #4416 of 6776 Old 09-22-2008, 01:13 PM
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A Fathom's heat sink will get warm to the touch if played hard for hours on end, but that just means it's working. :-)

Under normal listening conditions, it won't appreciably heat up.
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post #4417 of 6776 Old 09-22-2008, 02:22 PM
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Thanks -- I am going to audition the Fathom 113 later today -- this is going into a dedicated theater -- what material should I bring to the audition to hear the superiority of this sub-woofer over others? I've heard that Blackhawk Down is a good torture test. True? Any particular sequence?
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post #4418 of 6776 Old 09-22-2008, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

Thanks -- I am going to audition the Fathom 113 later today -- this is going into a dedicated theater -- what material should I bring to the audition to hear the superiority of this sub-woofer over others? I've heard that Blackhawk Down is a good torture test. True? Any particular sequence?

Blackhawk Down is very good... make sure you bring some familiar music, too.
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post #4419 of 6776 Old 09-22-2008, 05:45 PM
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The drum scene from House of Flying Daggers is superb for demonstrating bass control and power.

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post #4420 of 6776 Old 09-22-2008, 08:30 PM
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All it took was a few musical passages and a few scenes from Blackhawk down. I get it. I am now the proud owner of a F113 Fathom. They're installing it tomorrow. Can't wait!
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post #4421 of 6776 Old 09-22-2008, 11:22 PM
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Heh, for me it was Master and Commander. I listened to that and U-571 at the AV shop and bought it right after. I've been a happy camper ever since.
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post #4422 of 6776 Old 09-22-2008, 11:23 PM
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Craig John,

Sounds interesting. I wouldn't mind the timed booms without the motion.
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post #4423 of 6776 Old 09-23-2008, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

All it took was a few musical passages and a few scenes from Blackhawk down. I get it. I am now the proud owner of a F113 Fathom. They're installing it tomorrow. Can't wait!

It does not take long, does it? The JL subs are obviously not the most inexpensive subwoofer on the market but when you combine that quality of sub with the small footprint and beautiful cabinet it becomes an easy decision.
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post #4424 of 6776 Old 09-24-2008, 04:20 AM
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Hi guys, I have just placed my order for 2 f113 and expecting delivery in about 3 weeks (all the way to malaysia). I m wondering whether onkyo tx-sr876 avr is good enough to drive the 2 f113 or should I consider buying separates processor/amp. Anybody using avr and is happy with it? any feedback is welcome. tq
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post #4425 of 6776 Old 09-24-2008, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioblazer View Post

Hi guys, I have just placed my order for 2 f113 and expecting delivery in about 3 weeks (all the way to malaysia). I m wondering whether onkyo tx-sr876 avr is good enough to drive the 2 f113 or should I consider buying separates processor/amp. Anybody using avr and is happy with it? any feedback is welcome. tq

You cannot connect the F113 at speaker level. The only inputs are line level. Therefore, the receiver won't actually be "driving the subs". The receiver will provide the signal to the sub's amplifiers, which will drive the subs. The real question then becomes: "Does the receiver have a good enough Bass Management System to provide the proper signal to the subs to blend them well with the main speakers?"

According to the Onkyo USA website, the TX-SR876 seems to have a pretty rigorous BM system, with independent crossovers and multiple crossover settings.
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=...s=Receiver&p=f
It also has a full compliment of Audyssey features, so it should do a respectable job of room correction. However, in the Onkyo implementation of Audyssey MultEQ XT, Onkyo usually uses 80 Hz as the cutoff point for running speakers "Full Range". IOW, any main speakers that have any measured output below 80 Hz are set to "Full Range" by Onkyo. For most speakers, this is inappropriate. Unless the main speakers have full 20 Hz extension, (extremely rare), they should be crossed over to the subwoofer(s). Fortunately, this problem is easily correctable. Just select the crossover point recommended by Audyssey and you'll circumvent Onkyo's foolishness.

Of course, you could get even better BM capabilities with a separate pre/pro, such as adjustable crossover slopes and independent crossovers for each speaker. However, it would take some serious expertise to utilize these features. Also, they cost a lot more money.

The other question regarding the choice of a receiver or separate components is the amplifier stage of the receiver. You can certainly buy more powerful amplifiers than the amps in that receiver. However, the amps in that receiver seem fairly robust with 140 wpc and the ability to drive 4-ohm speakers. Whether you need more amplifier power will depend on the sensitivity of the speakers and the volumes you like to listen at. If your speakers are fairly sensitive, (higher than 90 dB sensitivity), and you don't listen louder than "reference level", the amps in the receiver should be more than adequate. OTOH, if you want to listen at or above "reference level" and you have insensitive speakers, (especially if they're low impedance, insensitive speakers), you will probably want more amplifier power.

What speakers are you considering, and what sources do you have? How loud do you want to be able to listen to your system? What's your budget?

Craig

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post #4426 of 6776 Old 09-24-2008, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post


Of course, you could get even better BM capabilities with a separate pre/pro, such as adjustable crossover slopes and independent crossovers for each speaker. However, it would take some serious expertise to utilize these features. Also, they cost a lot more money.

Craig

You are correct, it is very difficult to match all speakers using a pre/pro or even a better AVR. Most center and surrounds speakers do not have the same extension at the low end as the L/R speakers.

Let me take a somwhat extreme case to illustrate. Say you have full range L/R with +/- 3dB down to 35Hz and a center with say +/1 3dB at 80Hz and surrounds with +/-3dB at 125Hz. You can only set one cross-over point for the sub, so the question is what to set it at. For films you might want to set it pretty high (may be even 100Hz) so that you get that low frequency response form the center and surrounds output through the sub, but now you are setting your L/R as small you are loosing the ability of the speaker, but if you set them as large you will get significant overlap and therefore potential bloating of the sound. Also if you now want to listen to two channel music the mix might probably be completely wrong.

Some of the more advanced pre/pros do have room calibration software (limited capability to correct for room problems) incorporated such as the Onkyo mentioned, Integra and a number of others, or the Anthem AVM50 or D2 which uses ARC software to adjust to achieve a theoretical curve for the speakers in the room evironment. I use ARC with an older D1 and I have to say it does a pretty good job of matching my particular B&W 800 series speakers and my sub (which at the moment is not an F113 but may be in a couple of weeks). It does set the crossover pretty high for the sub to enable it to capture the bass from the less bass capable center and surrounds. The velodyne SMS-1 system also attempts to balance between the subs, the front L/R and the room, but does not account for the other speakers.

Bottom line is if you (audioblazer) have money to spend then look for a system with some better room correction capability. If it is Audyssey make sure it is the full implementation. However I would first try to do what you can with what you have, listen to it for quite a while (till the newness wears off!!) and if then you feel that you are not getting what you should out of the F113 take further steps (physical or electronic room correction). The F113 is a very capable sub and so if it does not live up to it's expectations start lookijng at placement of the sub or the room as a potential source of the problem.

One good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain.
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post #4427 of 6776 Old 09-24-2008, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikefl52 View Post

You are correct, it is very difficult to match all speakers using a pre/pro or even a better AVR. Most center and surrounds speakers do not have the same extension at the low end as the L/R speakers.

Let me take a somwhat extreme case to illustrate. Say you have full range L/R with +/- 3dB down to 35Hz and a center with say +/1 3dB at 80Hz and surrounds with +/-3dB at 125Hz. You can only set one cross-over point for the sub, so the question is what to set it at. For films you might want to set it pretty high (may be even 100Hz) so that you get that low frequency response form the center and surrounds output through the sub, but now you are setting your L/R as small you are loosing the ability of the speaker, but if you set them as large you will get significant overlap and therefore potential bloating of the sound. Also if you now want to listen to two channel music the mix might probably be completely wrong.

Just to clarify, the Onkyo spec's say it has "independent" crossovers. In this receiver, that means that the user can set a crossover for the L/R's, a different crossover for the CC and yet another crossover for the surrounds. Also, Audyssey measures the actual in-room response of the speakers and reports the actual in-room -3 dB point to the AVR. This is more accurate than using the manufacturer's specified - 3 dB point, because the manufacturer's spec would be an anechoic measurement, (if done correctly.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikefl52 View Post

Some of the more advanced pre/pros do have room calibration software (limited capability to correct for room problems) incorporated such as the Onkyo mentioned, Integra and a number of others, or the Anthem AVM50 or D2 which uses ARC software to adjust to achieve a theoretical curve for the speakers in the room evironment. I use ARC with an older D1 and I have to say it does a pretty good job of matching my particular B&W 800 series speakers and my sub (which at the moment is not an F113 but may be in a couple of weeks). It does set the crossover pretty high for the sub to enable it to capture the bass from the less bass capable center and surrounds. The velodyne SMS-1 system also attempts to balance between the subs, the front L/R and the room, but does not account for the other speakers.

Your Anthem D1 has "Independent Crossover by Speaker Group":
http://statement.anthemav.com/HTML/T...ingOver.html#5
You should be able to select a lower crossover for your speakers than the one for your CC and surrounds.

Craig

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post #4428 of 6776 Old 09-24-2008, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Just to clarify, the Onkyo spec's say it has "independent" crossovers. In this receiver, that means that the user can set a crossover for the L/R's, a different crossover for the CC and yet another crossover for the surrounds. Also, Audyssey measures the actual in-room response of the speakers and reports the actual in-room -3 dB point to the AVR. This is more accurate than using the manufacturer's specified - 3 dB point, because the manufacturer's spec would be an anechoic measurement, (if done correctly.)


Your Anthem D1 has "Independent Crossover by Speaker Group":
http://statement.anthemav.com/HTML/T...ingOver.html#5
You should be able to select a lower crossover for your speakers than the one for your CC and surrounds.

Craig

My point is that in all these adjustments you can only set one crosover frequency for the subwoofer. Yes I can set all the other groups (front, center, surround, back) to different independent crossover frequencies and based upon the speaker characterisitics it will send the information below that crossover to the sub, but if I set the crossover on the surrounds say to 125Hz and the sub to 80Hz say, the sub will only have a limited overlap with the surrounds and some of that signal will be lost. Conversly if my front L/R have the crossover set to 40Hz say then I will be getting output from both the sub and L/R between 40Hz and 80Hz which might lead to a bloated sound.

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post #4429 of 6776 Old 09-24-2008, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikefl52 View Post

My point is that in all these adjustments you can only set one crosover frequency for the subwoofer. Yes I can set all the other groups (front, center, surround, back) to different independent crossover frequencies and based upon the speaker characterisitics it will send the information below that crossover to the sub, but if I set the crossover on the surrounds say to 125Hz and the sub to 80Hz say, the sub will only have a limited overlap with the surrounds and some of that signal will be lost. Conversly if my front L/R have the crossover set to 40Hz say then I will be getting output from both the sub and L/R between 40Hz and 80Hz which might lead to a bloated sound.

Are you talking about the crossover on the subwoofer itself? If so, and you are using Bass Management in the receiver, the crossover on the subwoofer should be turned all they way up to it's highest point, or (preferably) disabled if possible. If using Bass Management, the receiver's crossover takes care of both the high pass for the speakers and the low pass for the subwoofer. If you invoke an additional crossover at the subwoofer, you are cascading crossovers which can lead to phase issues.

The only other filter you could be talking about is the LFE filter. This is a filter that *only* affects the LFE channel. Setting this filter to 80 Hz will remove any information above 80 Hz from the LFE channel only. It has no effect on the re-directed bass from the main channels. In general, it is best to leave this filter at 120 Hz, as this is the common cutoff for LFE track information. The only time it should be set lower is if you are experiencing problems with sub localization.

(Actually, I just looked at the manual for your D1 and it uses the terminology "Subwoofer/LFE crossover". This Bass Management technique does appear to be different than the Bass Management in most other receivers. It appears that the speaker crossovers are just high pass filters on the main channels. It then adds the re-directed bass to the LFE signal... and then applies the subwoofer/LFE filter to the entire signal. There is a mode to bypass this filter which allows it to pass the full 120 Hz.

The D1 systems seems less flexible than the system that uses a high pass and a low pass on each speaker group. The Bass Management in the Onkyo works like I described above.)

Craig

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post #4430 of 6776 Old 09-24-2008, 12:43 PM
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post #4431 of 6776 Old 09-26-2008, 10:52 AM
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Anyone using fathom's with a Denon AVP or AVR and running Audyssey?

I am curious about the following:

What is the subwoofer trim level setting in the AVP / AVR
What is the volume setting on the fathom (variable or reference)
If the above setting is on variable, what is the dial setting? (i.e. - 09:00 O'Clock)

Thanks.

Mark
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post #4432 of 6776 Old 10-03-2008, 03:01 PM
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I like heavy bass.
So after reading Carl Kennedy's blog, I tried a high crossover (2 F113's) with my Mcintosh LS 360's speakers. I set it high for weeks, just to let my brain adapt.

What I found is going to 60 hz today (again), it sounded much better then even 80hz not to mention 120hz.
Much less, Sub bass rumble, hanging (lack of a better adjective) around, during bass guitar and drum parts, with the instrument notes not sounding as short, at 60hz.
Hard to explain.
Much cleaner/ airy at 60hz crossover on my system.

The thought of a F113's playing at 120hz and lower, relieving my mains seemed reasonable, but the mains do a better job on their own at 60hz. In my case anyways. Not even close.

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post #4433 of 6776 Old 10-03-2008, 03:24 PM
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I am seriously considering adding a second F-113 (they are addictive) and I am curious about setup. The two subs would not be co-located as each sub will be just outside each front speaker. Would I want to run one as a slave? or would I want to run a splitter and have them both in master? I will also be using a SMS-1.
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post #4434 of 6776 Old 10-03-2008, 03:41 PM
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That sounds right from what I have read here a number of time, and I'm sure a few more experienced with dual Fathoms will chime in... run 1 as Master, the second as slave and then run the setup on the ARO and let it EQ your room. Then run the SMS-1 and EQ your room again. That should be quite impressive.

Didn't you just replace your Dali's with new speakers.... I missed what you got for replacement. Revel's..?
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post #4435 of 6776 Old 10-03-2008, 04:01 PM
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You can do it either way, Rydenfan... will there be any need for stereo subs in your setup?
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post #4436 of 6776 Old 10-03-2008, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith_JL View Post

You can do it either way, Rydenfan... will there be any need for stereo subs in your setup?

Possibly. I use a separate 2 channel pre-amp with HT bypass, but I am considering experimenting with them in 2 channel listening. Would that make a difference in setting them up?
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post #4437 of 6776 Old 10-03-2008, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

That sounds right from what I have read here a number of time, and I'm sure a few more experienced with dual Fathoms will chime in... run 1 as Master, the second as slave and then run the setup on the ARO and let it EQ your room. Then run the SMS-1 and EQ your room again. That should be quite impressive.

Didn't you just replace your Dali's with new speakers.... I missed what you got for replacement. Revel's..?

Actually the new I went with the new Kef Reference, the 205/2's fronts and 202/2 center all in Piano Black just like my JL
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post #4438 of 6776 Old 10-03-2008, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by King Titus View Post

I like heavy bass.
So after reading Carl Kennedy's blog, I tried a high crossover (2 F113's) with my Mcintosh LS 360's speakers. I set it high for weeks, just to let my brain adapt.

What I found is going to 60 hz today (again), it sounded much better then even 80hz not to mention 120hz.
Much less, Sub bass rumble, hanging (lack of a better adjective) around, during bass guitar and drum parts, with the instrument notes not sounding as short, at 60hz.
Hard to explain.
Much cleaner/ airy at 60hz crossover on my system.

The thought of a F113's playing at 120hz and lower, relieving my mains seemed reasonable, but the mains do a better job on their own at 60hz. In my case anyways. Not even close.

I find its tough to generalize about this topic with so much depending on how well you integrate the mains with the subs. Besides the usual room related placement issues how well the subs are in phase with the mains determines how well the upper harmonics well above the crossover point sound. If the subs are somewhat out of phase with your speaker's woofers or mids you get that "hanging" bass you describe above.

I agree with what C. Kennedy suggests since you really improve the amp headroom for the mains by moving more of the upper bass duties to the more capable Fathoms. However the higher up you cross the more difficult it becomes to get the subs and speakers phase in synch especially at the crossover point and above. Going with a low crossover sidesteps the problem with out of phase woofers at higher bass frequencies where its more audible. However if you persevere with getting the sub/sat system in phase and room resonance is on your side, then the rewards from improving amp headroom in the mains are substantial and overall the sound will be better .

I'm running stereo FL113s in my HT crossed at 100hz and it sounds much better than 60hz. In another stereo system, I'm crossed higher up at 250hz using a Bryston 10B sub electronic crossover and the increased amp headroom really shines through as more detailed tighter bass and better resolution in the mids and highs. Dialling in the right phase and slope was critical and took some time.

John
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post #4439 of 6776 Old 10-03-2008, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

Actually the new I went with the new Kef Reference, the 205/2's fronts and 202/2 center all in Piano Black just like my JL

Nice buddy.... I trust you are enjoying them... Better then the Dali's?
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post #4440 of 6776 Old 10-04-2008, 06:03 AM
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"Besides the usual room related placement issues how well the subs are in phase with the mains determines how well the upper harmonics well above the crossover point sound. If the subs are somewhat out of phase with your speaker's woofers or mids you get that "hanging" bass you describe above."

You could be right. But know that I did give it a lot of effort and time in regard to phase and sub location, in my designated media room. The f113's played too tight compared to the LS360's at higher hz.
I just read the Gothom review and they mentioned the similar thing. So it may hold true for the F113's too.
Dont get me wrong I love the F113's and am planning on buying 2 more for a different room with Sonus Faber mains.
I just prefer a full range speaker performing lower to its abilities then the handshake of the f113.

The logic of a great sub playing higher xo to relieve the mains made sense. But did not work in my case.

Honest Graft.
"I saw my opportunities, and took them"!
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