JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ View Post

Seems like a silly statement to me. If you want a $100 subwoofer they exist. This is a Ferrari subwoofer. Why does it need to be "more than a specialty item"? That's why people want it - because it IS a specialty item. That's why high-end high performance products exist. Using your logic, if you want it to be "not be a specialty item" thay I suppose it would need to be about $50 or come packaged with HTIB's as those are about as close as you come to mass market products. Even a $750 sub is a specialty item as far as the mass market goes. It's all relative and just a matter of degrees.

Ok maybe I'm just a little sad that my Ultra/2 isn't king anymore...
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post #452 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 07:21 AM
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Looks like JL Audio just crashed the party on a lovefest with the typical brand subs. These new developements will send a lot of people back to the drawing board. Great news for the consumer!

Some people have been saying it for a long time (Sealed, small, long throw, big power), mostly falling on deaf ears . Good to see a manufacturer finally putting it to good use.

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Can Craig's outdoor numbers of the F113 be compared in anyway to the subs in The Way Down Deep test?

Unfortunately, we only have 10%(ish) THD limited output numbers at 3 frequencies (16, 20 & 25Hz), and Yates doesn't limit THD. He uses the compression test and records the THD as the compression graphs reach their limit.

The only 10% limited comparo with an SVS 2X12" is Ed's numbers on the Ultra 2, which, as Ilk has pointed out to me, should be within .5-1.0dB of the Plus 2.

Craig's F113 #s: Ed's Ultra 2 #s:
16Hz: 93.7dB 18Hz: 100.7dB
20Hz: 100.2dB 20Hz: 102.8dB
25Hz 109.8dB 25Hz: 106dB

All of Ed's numbers are amp limited, so I would say that the Fathom would have more gas in the tank at less objectionable consequences than the SV subs.

Of course, the size of the Fathom's box, in relation to the driver's capabilities, allow for excursion headroom and big power to be applied where the opposite is true of the bigger ported sub. Nothing new here. Just took JL to realize it and build one (or 3) subs

Bosso
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post #453 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bosso View Post

Unfortunately, we only have 10%(ish) THD limited output numbers at 3 frequencies (16, 20 & 25Hz), and Yates doesn't limit THD. He uses the compression test and records the THD as the compression graphs reach their limit.

The only 10% limited comparo with an SVS 2X12" is Ed's numbers on the Ultra 2, which, as Ilk has pointed out to me, should be within .5-1.0dB of the Plus 2.

Craig's F113 #s: Ed's Ultra 2 #s:
16Hz: 93.7dB 18Hz: 100.7dB
20Hz: 100.2dB 20Hz: 102.8dB
25Hz 109.8dB 25Hz: 106dB

All of Ed's numbers are amp limited, so I would say that the Fathom would have more gas in the tank at less objectionable consequences than the SV subs.

Craig's data wasn't necessarily limited to exactly 10% THD; he described it as "max output". Not sure what that means - presumably the amp electronics limited output (he can clarify to be sure).

Regardless, I have not calculated the THD levels in Craig's screen shots, although this would not be difficult and Craig has the spreadsheet to do this. They do look to be about 10% or less at a quick glance, though.

Don't forget Ilkka's own data on the Plus/2 in the 20 Hz tune with the 12.3 woofers.......

Hz/dB/%THD (Plus/2):

50/111/4
40/112/10
30/108/10
25/105/7
20/101/20

20/99/17 (next lower sweep level)
20/95/9 (next lower sweep level)

Correlates pretty well with the Ultra/2 data above.........

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SVS

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post #454 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewB View Post

Can Craig's outdoor numbers of the F113 be compared in anyway to the subs in The Way Down Deep test?

Since Keith measured the DD-18 there is some room for correlation, but we have to realize that snapshots of relative output at 3 frequencies is just a peek, not the full picture. It looks like Craig's numbers at 16Hz & 20Hz for the DD-18 generally correlate to Keith's measurements within a dB or two, where the 25Hz measurement has me scratching my head. I doubt the f113 was moving +/-55mm with the low distortion observed, and the DD-18 is delivering a good 3-6dB more than extrapolation from Keith's measurements show. I would take a guess that some acoustic effect might have skewed the output level in the 25Hz measurement. Impossible to say for sure, but the *relative* differences between the two look to be as I might expect, although the 25Hz distortion from the JL & the DD-18 is a little lower than I might have expected at that level, which could also be explained by the high fundamental level. Whenever you have two devices measured at the same location, look more at the differences than the absolutes, and then look to see what does and doesn't correlate. Unforseen variables are common, and often hard to catch until you have time to analyze what is beeing measured.

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post #455 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 10:32 AM
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I'm far from an expert on GD measurements, but seems like Craig's numbers correlate very close to what the DD-18 and the SVS numbers have been, give or take a dB or so.

hope we can see more measurements...
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post #456 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 12:25 PM
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And to think I almost bought a Velodyne SPL-1500R for a street price of only $850 cheaper than what I'm getting the JL Audio f113 for! If it outperforms the DD-18 as is suggested, I imagine it really blows away the SPL-1500R (well worth the extra $850, I'm sure) I am one happy camper! I should have mine very soon!!
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post #457 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 02:35 PM
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I doubt the f113 was moving +/-55mm with the low distortion observed,

Damn, that's PR territory...

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post #458 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey View Post

Damn, that's PR territory...

More like Dream Land for anything conventional.

Almost nothing moves that far without significant noise or linearity issues.

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post #459 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 04:00 PM
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Seems like an awsome sub. $ 3200 list price. We have seen what the spec's look like. How about some direct comparisons? You could buy 2 of many popular subs for this kind of money. How would it stack up against 2 DD-12'S, 2-Plus 2's, 2-Sunfire signatures, or 2- Ultra 2's? And if you did spend $ 3200 what other subs out there can compete with this monster?

Whenever something this good comes along, I always want to jump on the bandwagon and buy one, or two! But my common sense tells me, I have spent
good money on what I have and it can't just be junk because something else
comes out.
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post #460 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swgiust View Post

Seems like an awsome sub. $ 3200 list price. We have seen what the spec's look like. How about some direct comparisons? You could buy 2 of many popular subs for this kind of money. How would it stack up against 2 DD-12'S, 2-Plus 2's, 2-Sunfire signatures, or 2- Ultra 2's? And if you did spend $ 3200 what other subs out there can compete with this monster?

Whenever something this good comes along, I always want to jump on the bandwagon and buy one, or two! But my common sense tells me, I have spent
good money on what I have and it can't just be junk because something else
comes out.

Well put,
I'm wondering the same thing, how would the f113 stack up against say
two SVS SB12+'s? Both sealed designs but you'd have two twelve inch drivers versus a single 13" and at a third of the price, or maybe half at street prices.
Interesting comparison don't you think?

dc

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post #461 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamCatcher View Post

Well put,
I'm wondering the same thing, how would the f113 stack up against say
two SVS SB12+'s? Both sealed designs but you'd have two twelve inch drivers versus a single 13" and at a third of the price, or maybe half at street prices.
Interesting comparison don't you think?

dc


Now that is disrespecting an exceptional product. How dare you! I mean not even the DD18 as good!

From what I've read, not to many subs will match it. Plus bass isn't bass.

Jl will sound different from Hsu and hsu sounds different from svs - svs sounds different from nht etc....

Numbers are not everything.
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post #462 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 06:10 PM
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Quote:


Originally Posted by DreamCatcher
Well put,
I'm wondering the same thing, how would the f113 stack up against say
two SVS SB12+'s? Both sealed designs but you'd have two twelve inch drivers versus a single 13" and at a third of the price, or maybe half at street prices.
Interesting comparison don't you think?

I paid a visit to the SVS factory early October to listen to the SVS SB12+. I liked them and would have bought it on the spot but SVS was not ready to ship and I also had to get in line behind the pre-orders. I planed to buy two and mate them with the Velodyne SVS-1. A few days later I went for a demo of the f113.

The SVS SB12+ is a very nice sounding, well built, and good value sub. But, respectfully, IMO compared to the f113, the SB12+ is not even close on all accounts.
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post #463 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 06:45 PM
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Just some food for thought.
While the Svs Sb-12 is great at what it does IIRC it's driver doesn't employ any type of linear motor technology. So having two SB-12's wouldn't necessarily stack up in the sound quality arena but could be capable of producing more output than the Fathom.

Only time will tell what the future holds...so until then JAM LIKE THERES NO TOMORROW!
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post #464 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exocer View Post

but could be capable of producing more output than the Fathom.


Why do people always have to type the svs letters? This is an F113 thread.

So what if your loved brand isn't the greatest? Do svs owners do the same with their other possessions? Cars? dishwashers, phones??????????
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post #465 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post

I paid a visit to the SVS factory early October to listen to the SVS SB12+. I liked them and would have bought it on the spot but SVS was not ready to ship and I also had to get in line behind the pre-orders. I planed to buy two and mate them with the Velodyne SVS-1. A few days later I went for a demo of the f113.

The SVS SB12+ is a very nice sounding, well built, and good value sub. But, respectfully, IMO compared to the f113, the SB12+ is not even close on all accounts.

I agree a single SB12+ by itself would not approach f113 territory, but what about two or even three or four. Four would cost less than $2500 with multi purchase discounts. Say one was to stack two in each room corner

dc

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post #466 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Tdekany View Post

Why do people always have to type the svs letters? This is an F113 thread.

So what if your loved brand isn't the greatest? Do svs owners do the same with their other possessions? Cars? dishwashers, phones??????????

A lot of different subs are being compared in this thread, should we not compare the f113 to the DD-18 because other subs can't be mentioned in a JL Audio thread

dc

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post #467 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamCatcher View Post

A lot of different subs are being compared in this thread, should we not compare the f113 to the DD-18 because other subs can't be mentioned in a JL Audio thread

dc

it just never ends does it? Comparing the DD18 DD15 ACI Maestro is one thing, but why a mid fi sub? Why not the pb10? How many would you need to beat the JL?

To beat the F113.... your favorite company would have to come up with a woofer that **sounds** at least as good as the JL's 13" woofer. Getting "just more spl" is not hard. But it will still not sound as good.
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post #468 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 07:17 PM
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I would say go for it DreamCatcher. I don't think two will do it. The SB12+ doesn't play as loud and rolls of much quicker below 20Hz. And four together equals about 70% of one f113's amplifier power. It does not come anywhere close to the sound quality of the f113.

The Velodyne DD-12 and DD-15 were on my short list too. They're not close in sound quality either IMO. I would urge you to listen to the f113 for yourself.

Edit: A PB12-Ultra/2 doesn't hold up... if you have read this thread or the reviews.
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post #469 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tdekany View Post

Why do people always have to type the svs letters? This is an F113 thread.

So what if your loved brand isn't the greatest? Do svs owners do the same with their other possessions? Cars? dishwashers, phones??????????

I am wondering why my post of all posts in this thread regarding SVS subs was quoted and criticized . Here lies a non-SVS owner ( I do own a veodyne) and completely unbiased person in regards to commercial subs stating nothing but the simple facts of physics... Relating Vd to output. Its not rocket science, nor is it putting one brand above another.

Only time will tell what the future holds...so until then JAM LIKE THERES NO TOMORROW!
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post #470 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 07:26 PM
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While I have no knowledge about the f113 other than what I've read here, I do have several weeks of experience evaluating a pair of SVS SB12+'s. They are phenomenal musical subs. Low frequency music sounds just like it should. They also are very well constructed, beautiful, and quite compact. They do not, however, have a lot of grunt from the low 20's down. In that respect, I doubt that two SB's or even more than two can do what the f113 can do at 20 hz and below.

One disclaimer, however, is that I do not have the SB's corner loaded. I have each of them along side my right and left front towers. Their bottom end could be much stronger if they were placed in the corner. To me, music sounds accurate with the subs along the front wall near the mains.

I'm keeping the SB12+'s for they way they sound with music. I think it would be hard to find many subs that sound much better for music. I'm also, however, keeping my big old 150 lb ported box for HT LFE.
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post #471 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tdekany View Post

it just never ends does it? Comparing the DD18 DD15 ACI Maestro is one thing, but why a mid fi sub? Why not the pb10? How many would you need to beat the JL?

To beat the F113.... your favorite company would have to come up with a woofer that **sounds** at least as good as the JL's 13" woofer. Getting "just more spl" is not hard. But it will still not sound as good.

"My favorite company"?
Man you've got issues, don't you
I've already ordered my JL Audio f113.
I was just posing a question

dc

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post #472 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exocer View Post

I am wondering why my post of all posts in this thread regarding SVS subs was quoted and criticized . Here lies a non-SVS owner ( I do own a veodyne) and completely unbiased person in regards to commercial subs stating nothing but the simple facts of physics... Relating Vd to output. Its not rocket science, nor is it putting one brand above another.

I was actually gonna post what you did, earlier, but decided against it.

I agree that a pair of SB12s might be able displace more air, but like you said, there are considerable differences between the drivers (including the linear tech in the JL) not to mention the actual enclosure/amp/eq differences.

But two subs is still not the same as one. It is apparent that the JL subs are some of the best choices for single, small subs on the market. Maybe the "only" choice.
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post #473 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exocer View Post

I am wondering why my post of all posts in this thread regarding SVS subs was quoted and criticized . Here lies a non-SVS owner ( I do own a veodyne) and completely unbiased person in regards to commercial subs stating nothing but the simple facts of physics... Relating Vd to output. Its not rocket science, nor is it putting one brand above another.


I do have problems, but they are not related to subs. I didn't single you out, sorry if it came across like that.
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post #474 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 07:47 PM
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Heard the F112 and F113 this past weekend. The subs are exactly what I expected from the JL organization, having done high end car audio for years.

The F113 was seamless in integration, pure, transparent, visceral, and immaculate in execution. The F112 had a similar sound with just slightly less output.

While I haven't heard all subs, these are clearly the reference standard of what I have heard at their price point. If you can step up to that price point, they are a remarkable value for what they do.
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post #475 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

I was actually gonna post what you did, earlier, but decided against it.


I am glad that you didn't.
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post #476 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 07:56 PM
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Will, well what can we say? Personally, I thought twice about posting what I did fearing people wouldn't interpret the actual meaning of my post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tdekany View Post

I do have problems, but they are not related to subs. I didn't single you out, sorry if it came across like that.

No problem. My purpose in posting that was to give people a more realistic expectation of how 2 Sb-12's would compare to the Fathom.

Only time will tell what the future holds...so until then JAM LIKE THERES NO TOMORROW!
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post #477 of 6812 Old 11-08-2006, 08:03 PM
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I am glad that you didn't.

Too late, I just did when I quoted Exocer.

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post #478 of 6812 Old 11-09-2006, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamCatcher View Post

A lot of different subs are being compared in this thread, should we not compare the f113 to the DD-18 because other subs can't be mentioned in a JL Audio thread

dc


SVS gets worn out here
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post #479 of 6812 Old 11-09-2006, 07:36 AM
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I didn't want to hijack this thread and make it another SVS is this or that thread. I just wanted to compare with something that I am familiar with. That may be the reason that alot of this goes back to SVS is because LOTS of people who frequent AVS forum own them. We (or at least I) am very excited about this new sub. It seams awesome! The urges of most of us are to try and have the best we can afford. That means always reviewing and QUESTIONING the new kid on the block.
The outcome of all this will be positive for all involved. JL will sell lots of subs,
Velodyne, SVS, Sunfire, Earthquake, TheaterResearch will all come out with new and better products. So the good news is that if you have the change, you can buy this sub now, if you need a year to save up, you will still be able to buy this sub or I would bet, a couple of others too!

I am expecting new Bass traps and panels tomorrow. I hope that this will be a good improvement for my system. I fret about this and that when I'm trolling this site, but I LOVE IT when I'm in my room, kicked back, watching whatever the latest and greatest movie out is. Which this weekend will be Cars (Yes I have kids)
But hey, on a 70" screen with, oh no I'm gonna say it, my PB12/Ultra-2 handling the bass!!!
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post #480 of 6812 Old 11-09-2006, 07:44 AM
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"Jl will sound different from Hsu and hsu sounds different from svs - svs sounds different from nht etc....

Numbers are not everything"


Are you suggesting that the differences in sonic signature between various subs are to be celebrated much like the subtle differences in high-end speakers? If so, I would disagree. Full-range speakers or monitors have characteristics that define different perspectives...front row in-your-face, balcony gently rolled off...but when it comes to sub bass for the home, there should be no place for slightly fat, somewhat boomy, a little strained, somewhat dynamicly challenged, or any other moderating characteristic. Good bass is good bass...tight, quick, deep, dynamic, and linear over a broad range of sub-bass frequencies. Either the sub sytem has it, or it doesn't. Some systems may have more of it than others, but that does not equate to "different strokes for different folks". The best is the best and everything else is either "almost as good" or something less.
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