JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

Bosso,

Will you be having mayo or mustard with those words?

I realize that the F113 has 30% more displacement than the F112, and 1KW more power, but I still think I'm in no danger of adding crow to my dinner plans any time soon...

anyone have comments on this?

Bosso
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post #32 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 12:51 PM
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I don't know. I was expecting more(too much?). "it was not able to reproduce 25 Hz with less than 10% distortion. It can make plenty of sound at this frequency (104 dB), but with 40% distortion where the upper harmonics are approaching the amplitude of the fundamental"
I mean, I know I am no expect but am I reading that right? 25Hz at 40% distortion?
Kind of high right?

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post #33 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 01:23 PM
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It also only has a single band pEQ.

Sounds like a great home theater sub, but I think my current lust is still directed towards the Velo DD's for crisp 2ch bass. And for that price you could snag at least two PB12-Plus/2 units for a home theater in addition to a Velodyne SMS-1 pEQ, an SPL meter & AVIA (for the rest of the system) along with a few DVDs...

Looks cool, but I want to see some good measurements ala Ed, Ikka, Craig, etc.

Sounds like it's a big-brother to a sunfire sub. Brings down the house, but huge amounts of distortion.

~Nick
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post #34 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I realize that the F113 has 30% more displacement than the F112, and 1KW more power, but I still think I'm in no danger of adding crow to my dinner plans any time soon...

anyone have comments on this?

Bosso

let's just hope the f113 puts in a better showing than this ...the order of harmonic distortion is'nt indicated but it's within 10 dB (-8 to be exact) of the fundamental ...this is puzzling...especially corner loaded...i'm guessing 10% limited 25 Hz is somewhat less than 100 dB...and considering most LP's are over 3 meters away, this would indicate rather lackluster output...don't even think about 20 Hz...i guess the 22 Hz limit that i remember seeing is about right for this sub...this is definitely a small room solution, given the test results...

I would expect the f113 to put in a better showing, but we must remember that "single" sealed subs are limited in more ways than one...we'll see...only 12" and the room WAS on the larger side of things but...

That said, this is the most chilling thing that i've heard about a subwoofer ever...

"it was not able to reproduce 25 Hz with less than 10% distortion." -Tom N.

...incredible!

"Frequency response is NOT efficiency response."

 

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Klipsch RB-35's surround

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post #35 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 01:35 PM
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Well, a review from Tom Nousaine... doesn't get much better than that!

Yeah, I don't think this unit is on my list of curiosities anymore.

EDIT: I see that review is for the f112 and not f113 now. But still not to good a showing for a 12" sealed sub at that price level.

~Nick
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post #36 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 02:24 PM
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You might want to give it a listen before you add it to, or take it off of any list.

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post #37 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 02:30 PM
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Suffice it to say that we are quite puzzled by the test results Mr. Nousaine reported. In no way do these results agree with our own measurements and what we know to be the performance capabilities of the f112.

Having not been present during the testing, we do not know if there was some issue with the product or with the measurement setup that could possibly explain these results. I'll leave it at that until we get more information.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
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post #38 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 04:15 PM
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Repeatability is the key here. Another test seems almost mandatory in my mind. If it was just a freak thing, it would be nice to know.

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post #39 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 04:22 PM
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I just purchased a JL F113.

I have heard a lot about the SVS subs in this forum but I have not been able to hear one. I didnt want to pay the deposit to test one and then return it if I didnt like it. So I checked out the Jl at a local shop here in O.C Calif area. I liked what i heard and he offered me a good deal so I pulled the trigger and took it home Friday.

I hooked it up today and as much as I liked it in the store it was better in my house. Incredible deep bass. It was tight and fast. I played WOTW and when that thing comes out of the ground I swear you think it's coming out of the floor. It just rocked the house and my chest was pounding. I dont know how to explain it. It wasnt just loud it was ....real... you could feel the movie. You couldnt tell it was a "subwoofer playing". Sorry I cant explain it better. I didnt even have the level turned up more then 1/3. I never even took the time to "set it up" I just placed it in the corner and turned it on. I also played some music. A little BOb DYlan and then Chris Issac. The sound was so smoothe and warm. It gave the music a whole new level of enjoyment.


One of these is enough for my room, 3500 cubes, but I would love to see what 2 would do. I feel myself being drawn towards the dark side aka...Upgrade.....
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post #40 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 04:39 PM
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I have twin SVS CS-Ultras with the Crown K1 amp. They sound excellent. I have to sell them because I need something smaller(as in not as tall) I bought two of the Jl Audio F113 and I have to tell you they are incredable. I don't have the eqipment in my living room to do the measurments that Mr. Nusaine has, but I'll tell you this: I don't know that I have personally ever heard anything better. Certainly not in my home. I have had NHT, Hsu and SVS and they can't compare. They also don't cost as much, so I would expect them to keep up. Just my thoughts!! Any one wants to PM me I can talk more. I don't want to HiJack the thread. I am not a fan boy for anyone, except my beautiful wife!!

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post #41 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 04:53 PM
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Remember, TN was testing an F112, not an F113. He got some respectable numbers for the size of his room. From what I saw, it was a rather sparse review compared to TN's other reviews. I don't think this was a planned test. Maybe he is just feeling it out to see if he wants to do a full-blown setup.

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post #42 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 07:15 PM
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Good point. I know that Kal Rubinson has a review coming in the Nov. Stereophile. Maybe it will be a more in depth review.

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post #43 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 07:27 PM
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This reminds me of that Earthquake PR sub situation - the one that was supposed to be strong to the teens but died off below 30hz I like watching these things play out.


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post #44 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 07:30 PM
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Kal doesn't do objective data,maybe JA steps in but I never saw him do sub measurments.
I find subjective review for subs useless, as far as any merit for poissble future purchase consideration.

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post #45 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Kal doesn't do objective data,maybe JA steps in but I never saw him do sub measurments.
I find subjective review for subs useless, as far as any merit for poissble future purchase consideration.

Actually, I often do measurements but, mostly, for my own help in setup and for insight. OTOH, they are not comprehensive and rarely see print.............as in this case.

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post #46 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Kal doesn't do objective data,maybe JA steps in but I never saw him do sub measurments.
I find subjective review for subs useless, as far as any merit for poissble future purchase consideration.

Hun, are you saying that you have to see a bench report on a sub before you can determine if it sounds good or not? What if you listened to the sub, or any speaker and it really sounded great too you, but the bench report wasn't what you expected. Would you disregard your ears? I really don't mean to be argumentative, but are we a bit hung up on numbers here?

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post #47 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 09:48 PM
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It seems to me you are putting words in his mouht and he is quite reasonably saying that he doesn't care for "ohh ahh, it sounded so fast and deep" without ANY measurements. A good review should *IMO* combine objective measurements with subjective perceptions.
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post #48 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 10:01 PM
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I never could understand what the numbers meant. For me it was about the quality of what I was hearing. Nothing more.

Our intellectuall side is constantly asking "what are the numbers".
IMHO the only question that needs to be answered is "Do I like the way it sounds?"
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post #49 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slybasil View Post

I never could understand what the numbers meant. For me it was about the quality of what I was hearing. Nothing more.

Our intellectuall side is constantly asking "what are the numbers".
IMHO the only question that needs to be answered is "Do I like the way it sounds?"

And do you suppose that if I read about a product and learn that it exhibits 50% distortion at 30 HZ at 85 dB, that might tell me something about whether I will "like the way it sounds"? Do you suppose that might tell me that's not a subwoofer I need to listen to? If I know that the reproduction of deep black is important to me and I also know that a projector has a contrast ratio of 800:1, might I know that is a projector I need not bother looking at? If you are purchasing a car do you need to drive every one, or does looking at the specs perhaps help you to determine which ones you actually want to test drive?
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post #50 of 6782 Old 10-24-2006, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slybasil View Post

Our intellectuall side is constantly asking "what are the numbers".

Speak for yourself please. If that's the primary/only thing someone's intellectual side is constantly asking, they may need to exercise their intellectual side a little more.
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post #51 of 6782 Old 10-25-2006, 12:26 AM
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QQQ, I agree with you up to a point. However, as a doctor, more than once in my career I have seen "lab" that just dosen't make sense!! It looks wrong, but the patient looks "OK". Sometimes you have to look at the patient. Maybe the lab is off!! So I say(as someone who owns a pair of F113) listen to the sub and tell me whether you like it or not. I don't have to justify my purchase. I auditioned the subs before I bought them, and if anything they sound much better in my home than they did at the store. These are just my thoughts, I could be wrong.

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post #52 of 6782 Old 10-25-2006, 01:09 AM
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qqq

you are probably right. except a car isnt going to drive any faster for you then it will for someone else. Black is the same black for you or me. the contrast 800-1 is the same for you as me. The specs are specific for those types of items. But for music IMO there is the emotional quota that you just cant put on paper. Some people cant stand the sound of nails on a chaulk board others barely notice. MUsic/sound is so much more personal. After all isnt that why we spend the money we do for this. Not because of intellect but because of emotion. Sometimes the specs dont represent what sounds good to a person. I certainly understand your point it makes sense to have the numbers. What I call deep or fast might be diff for others.

The JL 113, IMO, is a kick ass sub. with or with out numbers. give it a try before the numbers come out and let us know what you think. You can probably give a better personal opionion they I did. damn... I didnt even know what LPF was until I hooked up the sub.
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post #53 of 6782 Old 10-25-2006, 01:30 AM
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nethomas

What was the diference in the performance when you hooked up the second sub?
I have one F113 and that seems enough. what size is the room and where did you place them. I noticed in the Install manual it suggested that for two subs opposite corners diagonal for best results.
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post #54 of 6782 Old 10-25-2006, 04:42 AM
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There is definitely a place for subjective analysis and a place for objective analysis. In general, subwoofers that sound good also measure well. It is quite unlikely that something exhibiting 40% THD would "trick" experienced listeners into liking it.

We have contacted S&V to go over the test methodology and determine whether there was an anomaly in the test or a product failure... the subwoofer was shipped from Florida (JL) to Maryland (Dan Kumin) to New York (photography) and then to Detroit (Mr. Nousaine), so it's possible that something happened to it on its travels. They have agreed to re-test the original (which Mr. Nousaine still has) and a replacement, if necessary.

Best regards,

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post #55 of 6782 Old 10-25-2006, 04:49 AM
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Keep in mind that the exact same f112 was used by Dan Kumin for the subjective review in S&V. His comments on its performance in no way indicate a distortion problem of any kind or a lack of low frequency extension or a lack of output capability.

Quote:


MOVIE PERFORMANCE Here's the executive summary: The JL f112 outperformed my everyday sub, a somewhat more compact sealed 12-incher of similarly lofty price, by an audible margin in both depth and power the first visiting woofer to do so in some time. I tried lots of film and music tracks, and while passages rating only "very demanding" yielded no audible differences, my "most demanding" list told the tale.

On the helicopter rotor-beats from Chapter 4 of Black Hawk Down, at cinema-reference levels, the f112 produced a clearly more thoracic overall effect. When playing the full speaker system, this was discernible only to a practiced ear, but it was perfectly obvious with the full-range speakers muted. Plus, the JL excited rattles in my room that my regular woof could not. More important, it delivered tangibly more near-infrasonic gut-thumping from stuff like that old standby, the 'zilla footfalls from Godzilla.

MUSIC PERFORMANCE Music playback was just as impressive. Even with a fairly high crossover (80 Hz) dialed in from the processor, the JL produced a smooth, continuous blend with smaller sats, including exposed material such as solo string bass. I heard no hint of sub artifacts that called attention to its location, nor any of the "boom," "bloom," or "bloat" that afflict many subs. The f112 was invariably tight and detailed. And it was highly musical along with powerful and low.

Something simply doesn't add up.
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post #56 of 6782 Old 10-25-2006, 05:15 AM
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You can get plenty of house-crumbling power out of a sub with high-distortion. But sharp hits and clarity take a big loss. For instance, with low-distortion servo-controlled subs (Like the Velo DD's), you can back off on the servo control which will increase distortion, but allows greater SPL's. It's just not as accurate. To many people SPL without low-distortion is not an option.

As far as numbers go... they are one of the primary tools in designing the subs and analyzing it's performance during the design process. I would agree with the post that says a good sounding sub usually exhibits a relatively flat frequency response with deep extension, low distortion and high SPL capability. Of course the ultimate decision is in auditioning, but If I'm looking for a new product, numbers are one of my primary means to focus my search. If I'm looking for a ragtop that will do neck-snapping pulls on the on-ramp, I'm not going to look at a Geo Metro Sport and think "Well the numbers indicate a 12sec 0-60 time, but maybe a test drive will make a difference...". The same reason why the doctor above orders lab tests in the first place. It's not everything, but a good indication of what's going on without even seeing the patient. It also provides a means of comparison between different subs with quantifiable information.

Thats said, for many people - high distortion subs are great for home theater, and I'm sure many people will enjoy the JL units which seem very capable of high SPL's for their size.

~Nick
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post #57 of 6782 Old 10-25-2006, 06:15 AM
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There's no mystery in TN's methodology. He sets up in the comfort of his listening space, corner loads the sub and sets up his mic 2 meters away.

I've never been a fan of TN's results, as they're only comparable to his own tests of other subs and not repeatable except by him, but...

If you look at FabFrankie's compilation of the subs TN has tested, updated through January of '06, the criteria is explained. You can insert the F112 by the numbers.

High harmonic distortion down low is usually perceived as tighter, more percussive subjectively by the listening comparos I've run of a sub with high HD at 20-30Hz vs a very low HD sub.

TN said that output isn't limited at 25Hz, as he recorded 104dB, and I would venture a guess that it would only be noticeable as having more impact to a subjective listening session playing soundtracks, without the THD numbers to explain why.

With the music selections, there isn't much below 40Hz that would show itself as high THD either way.

In the 1st 2 octaves HD is of little consequence and actually adds to the experience, IMHO, as most of it is subsonic, but from 20-30Hz, high THD is definitely audible. Whether or not it's offensive or pleasing is in the eye of the beholder as many 2 channel tube amp buffs and 2" analog tape recordists will attest. Those recordists actually play THD like an instrument, something subwoofer purists would (and have)scoff at. I keep an open mind where THD is concerned. Listening is the best answer to the THD numbers in any case.

Still, Ilkka's early SC and IMD tests indicate that the more offensive distortions follow THD numbers closely, so...?

It will be interesting to see the results of the investigation and the final results vs the Onix Rocket UFW-12 (both versions), Velo's DD-12 and the new SVS sealed 1X12" sub. Although I'm no fan of TN's stuff, I doubt there will be a flaw found in the methodology.

I don't expect much from a sealed 1X12, as I've built and tested many versions, and I'm really looking forward to the numbers of the F-113 and G-213 as they have more of what it takes, IMHO. Early subjectives from new owners of the 113 are very good. It will be interesting to 'see' what they're hearing

Bosso
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post #58 of 6782 Old 10-25-2006, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

This reminds me of that Earthquake PR sub situation - the one that was supposed to be strong to the teens but died off below 30hz I like watching these things play out.

Like the LLT numbers...oh, wait...that thing never has played out yet

(Yes, that's a little dig, 'cause you don't get to laugh unless it's the last laugh, where numbers are concerned, IMHO )

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post #59 of 6782 Old 10-25-2006, 08:14 AM
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FWIW, I think TN stated to me awhile back that there was no objective standard for testing subs (I think there is now, but correct me if I am wrong) and he has been doing them a long time. I agree that his tests are only good in comparing to one another, but I think that is valuable for those that he has tested.

That said, it doesn't mean the test of the JL was not flawed by a bad sample or any number of other things.
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post #60 of 6782 Old 10-25-2006, 08:54 AM
 
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I just got off the phone, and have ordered a single F112 and dual F113's ... They should be here by Friday.
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