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post #6871 of 6898 Old 02-26-2015, 04:26 PM
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So why not just say I know the Submersive is better and leave it at that. Maybe then us trolls can go climb back under our houses. Instead you waste time saying everything but that and defend the JL. I had my Submersive first then got the JL. I could have kept either but that knocking from hitting the limiter got annoying real quick.
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post #6872 of 6898 Old 02-26-2015, 04:42 PM
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I owned a rhythmik fv15hp, svs PB 12 plus and other big subs.
Lots of output no doubt but it wasn't musical. And it didn't suit my room.
Swopped to the f113. Deep and tight bass.
Now I use two E 112 subs located in different positions which balances out the bass suckout at my MLP.

I get lower output at the deepest bass but I get quality and I have my rumble and thump.

So you like your seaton. We get that. Enjoy it and leave us to our " expensive "high WAF and musical JL subs.
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post #6873 of 6898 Old 02-26-2015, 04:44 PM
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Ps : a smaller sub means I can place it in the best spot which is often not under the screen and live happily with my better half.
When you get a wife mate you will know what I mean.
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post #6874 of 6898 Old 02-26-2015, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post
So why not just say I know the Submersive is better and leave it at that. Maybe then us trolls can go climb back under our houses. Instead you waste time saying everything but that and defend the JL. I had my Submersive first then got the JL. I could have kept either but that knocking from hitting the limiter got annoying real quick.

Uhhhhhh... that's exactly what I did; you might have noticed if you put a little thought into my posts. Apparently, a casual rebuttal was too much. I've tried to be relatively calm and collected with my responses, so perhaps your frustration is misguided. But now I'm wondering why I waste my breath. Perhaps it's human nature, as Blazar suggests.
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post #6875 of 6898 Old 02-26-2015, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
Ps : a smaller sub means I can place it in the best spot which is often not under the screen and live happily with my better half.
When you get a wife mate you will know what I mean.

+1, nice to hear you've done your homework, Pete. I've always found something special about the sound of the Fathoms to my ear. Nothing quantifiable, of course, but that's not important to me. What they can do, particularly under my constraints, is truly remarkable.
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post #6876 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 04:06 AM
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`
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
I owned a rhythmik fv15hp, svs PB 12 plus and other big subs.
Lots of output no doubt but it wasn't musical. And it didn't suit my room.
Swopped to the f113. Deep and tight bass.
Now I use two E 112 subs located in different positions which balances out the bass suckout at my MLP.

I get lower output at the deepest bass but I get quality and I have my rumble and thump.
.
I have 4 F112 which Ive been told is more than enough for my room. Placed correctly by a HAA calibrator, can't go wrong. Rumble is there!!
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post #6877 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
I owned a rhythmik fv15hp, svs PB 12 plus and other big subs.
Lots of output no doubt but it wasn't musical. And it didn't suit my room.
Swopped to the f113. Deep and tight bass.
Now I use two E 112 subs located in different positions which balances out the bass suckout at my MLP.

I get lower output at the deepest bass but I get quality and I have my rumble and thump.

So you like your seaton. We get that. Enjoy it and leave us to our " expensive "high WAF and musical JL subs.
How do you find the E112's Pete?

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post #6878 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post
`

I have 4 F112 which Ive been told is more than enough for my room. Placed correctly by a HAA calibrator, can't go wrong. Rumble is there!!
What is this madness? Haven't you been reading? You can't be happy with Fathoms. Zen can only be achieved by that other Sub company. Drink your Kool Aid and submit to their cult.
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post #6879 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post
How do you find the E112's Pete?
They don't go as low as the F113, but they are faster, smaller and easier to blend into my system, given that I had a suckout at my old MLP, I had a bass guru friend pop over and we did a really extensive and rather crazy crawl for bass...
I mean he insisted on going everywhere, even my bedroom, toilets and all..

We finally settled on one in the hallway (out of sight when you see the picture in my signature) and one at right back of the room. I also added subdude pads...

I wouldn't have been able to move that F113 around... Or those washing machine sized subs..

What I lose in depth, I gain in smoothness and response.
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post #6880 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 01:05 PM
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Sorry to burst your bubble but no such thing as a sub being faster. More fantasy talk.

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post #6881 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post
Sorry to burst your bubble but no such thing as a sub being faster. More fantasy talk.
Says the chap with the big sub...
We are aware that you have the larger and cheaper sub, congrats mate.

I happen to like the sound coming out of my JL subs.
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post #6882 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 02:02 PM
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Email your God Berry at JL he will tell you the same thing.

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post #6883 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 02:42 PM
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I've always considered the term "speed" to be a figure of speech describing how the subs are blending with the mains. Maybe, instead of playing Mr. Grumpy Big Sub, you could try to bring the thread back to cordial discussion? Are we hating on Barry now, too? (that's the man, not the fruit)
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post #6884 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 02:54 PM
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Why would I be hating on someone I agree with.
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post #6885 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
Says the chap with the big sub...
We are aware that you have the larger and cheaper sub, congrats mate.

I happen to like the sound coming out of my JL subs.
He's right on this one.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=knowhow&type=1

Quote:
Often times people make the mistake that sound quality is in fact related to the woofers quickness, but in fact the woofer’s quickness is exactly related to SPL. The faster the driver, the higher the SPL. There are two ways to change a woofer’s speed. 1. Lower the frequency of the input its reproducing or 2. increase the volume. Sounds silly, but its true. There are many other factors that go into making a subwoofer sound fast or slow (boomy or tight) but that divulges into system design. What’s important about this myth is that speed is an inappropriate concept of sound quality.
I'm not getting into the rest of the argument, but this myth has been busted.
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post #6886 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 03:44 PM
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Because when you referred to him as Pete's "God", it sounded quite negative in context. A certain curmudgeon with a degree in History, named Bill Fitzmaurice, attempted to discredit him in this thread a few pages back, so I thought maybe he'd become a new target of the AVS hardliners (those with strong opinions, while frequently offering little more than hot air).
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post #6887 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by STL D View Post
Yes, we can all read the test results and find out that a dual 15" driver with a substantial sized cabinet will have more output that the single driver, much smaller Fathom subs.

More output doesn't necessarily mean something is better. Everyone has a preference on what they think "sounds" best.

Seaton makes great subs as does JL. I would guess most people couldn't discern a sound difference between the two assuming they were properly placed and integrated with the mains
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post #6888 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 04:13 PM
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I haven't seen this much thread crapping since the format wars.
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post #6889 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jsc79 View Post
Yes, we can all read the test results and find out that a dual 15" driver with a substantial sized cabinet will have more output that the single driver, much smaller Fathom subs.

More output doesn't necessarily mean something is better. Everyone has a preference on what they think "sounds" best.

Seaton makes great subs as does JL. I would guess most people couldn't discern a sound difference between the two assuming they were properly placed and integrated with the mains
Didn't read the link I take it? First guy said his JL F112s are faster than his F113, while it's a fact that the speed of a driver is directly related to SPL. The link didn't give a SINGLE test result, it was dispelling common subwoofer myths.

I specifically stated I am not getting involved in any other aspect of the conversation. The JLs have their place. Those who want the maximum possible power in a tiny box. No one with a JL would ever believe it can over-throw something like a submersive or a captivator, but those who buy those subs are also not the market that JL was targeting.

In their niche, they are the one to beat.
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post #6890 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 04:30 PM
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Wow! just wow!
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post #6891 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by STL D View Post
Didn't read the link I take it? First guy said his JL F112s are faster than his F113, while it's a fact that the speed of a driver is directly related to SPL. The link didn't give a SINGLE test result, it was dispelling common subwoofer myths.

I specifically stated I am not getting involved in any other aspect of the conversation. The JLs have their place. Those who want the maximum possible power in a tiny box. No one with a JL would ever believe it can over-throw something like a submersive or a captivator, but those who buy those subs are also not the market that JL was targeting.

In their niche, they are the one to beat.
Busted. I assumed it was a link to a test. I should have known as Ricci hasn't tested a Submersive. Sorry, carry on.

On another note, I do actually own a JL Audio sub. Not a Fathom but a E112. Really like it.

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post #6892 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 05:22 PM
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Busted. I assumed it was a link to a test. I should have known as Ricci hasn't tested a Submersive. Sorry, carry on.
It's all good man. I see you guys here receive quite a bit of sparks on the timber, so I can't blame you for jumping to conclusions on it.

Personally I'm a fan of good subs period. While JL isn't the output champions of the world, they managed to work miracles for the tiny little box they put on the shelves.
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post #6893 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post
Email your God Berry at JL he will tell you the same thing.
Mate, I only have one God, and it is not a chap who makes subs or any other man.

I just realised you have no intention of doing anything except put down our subs.

I will go back to enjoying the sound from my subs. I trust what my ears tell me.
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post #6894 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 06:00 PM
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I haven't seen this much thread crapping since the format wars.

Jl audio owners are happy and were content with what we have and the subs reach our requirements and mankite cannot deal with it.






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post #6895 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
They don't go as low as the F113, but they are faster, smaller and easier to blend into my system, given that I had a suckout at my old MLP, I had a bass guru friend pop over and we did a really extensive and rather crazy crawl for bass...
I mean he insisted on going everywhere, even my bedroom, toilets and all..

We finally settled on one in the hallway (out of sight when you see the picture in my signature) and one at right back of the room. I also added subdude pads...

I wouldn't have been able to move that F113 around... Or those washing machine sized subs..

What I lose in depth, I gain in smoothness and response.

That's good to hear Pete you can't go wrong with those subs. From what I read there great subs as well.


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post #6896 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post
So why not just say I know the Submersive is better and leave it at that. Maybe then us trolls can go climb back under our houses. Instead you waste time saying everything but that and defend the JL. I had my Submersive first then got the JL. I could have kept either but that knocking from hitting the limiter got annoying real quick.

i guess i just don't get it...

the name of this thread is "JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub"...

why are you posting here...?

it's akin to the owner of an orbit shifter posting on the submersive thread, stating an orbit shifter is better than a submersive....

OK...whats yer point, dude?

at the zenith of his nadir...
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post #6897 of 6898 Old Yesterday, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post
So why not just say I know the Submersive is better and leave it at that. Maybe then us trolls can go climb back under our houses. Instead you waste time saying everything but that and defend the JL. I had my Submersive first then got the JL. I could have kept either but that knocking from hitting the limiter got annoying real quick.
Out of interest I decided to look for some performance specs on the original Submersive and couldn't find any - not sure why. No shortage of opinions, but I wouldn't base a buying decision on random internet posts. I've been to sub shootouts and would also never buy based on those - none of the subs get optimized, they are all in different positions, and usually the surroundings are unfamiliar unless you are the guy hosting.


I did come across a post by none other than Mark Seaton and when he was asked about the Submersive vs F113 he said that their output is pretty similar and perhaps the Submersive has a little more ultra low bass. The Submersive doesn't have to be pushed as hard to get to max output but that's the tradeoff when you have a woofer in a small box like the fathom. I realize the Submersive has 2 15 inchers but it's not square inches that count, it's cubic inches. And the JL F113 displaces 6L which is a lot. Bottom line is that the Submersive may not have that much more in it than the F113 so I'm not sure what you're going on about. Show us some measurements to prove your point if you can.


BTW, I may have the opportunity to build a house with another dedicated ht - this time with nice high ceilings and good dimensions (mine is currently 24 by 17 by 8) and I will definitely look at Seaton's current offerings as well as the Orbit Shifter and whatever the latest Danley product is. I'll start off with my 4 F113s but I will wire the room so that I can "hide" a couple of big subs if I choose to.

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post #6898 of 6898 Old Today, 07:43 AM
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I do agree, there's no substitute for a proper audition in your room. From what I've gathered over the years, the Submersive (not sure how many versions there have been) is certainly capable of more SPL, and there's no reason it shouldn't be considering it's size. The other advantage is in the infrasound (below 20Hz). I see the HP version listed as down -3dB at 15Hz, while the F113 is -3dB at 18Hz, so it is capable of more infrasound. Looks like the rolloff is also gentler into the single digits on the Submersive. The Fathoms have a more aggressive rolloff to prevent damage to the driver - a single 13" driver can only move so much air anyway. Of course, another nice thing about the Fathoms is how they can be distributed around a room and tucked away practically unnoticed, which gives them much more output and extension, while smoothing out room resonances. There are plenty of FR plots out there, but I didn't see one that compares the two under identical measurement conditions. Examples (Submersive first):


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