JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub - Page 236 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7051 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 09:53 AM
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at the paper the F112 goes to 19hz at -3 db, while the E112 goes to 21hz - and output at 40hz is 116,2db for F112 and 112,4 on E112. However - if you compared two E112 vs a single F112 then the E's could have the upper hand. And also placement in a room can easily tip them over seing as 2 hz is not much at all.
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post #7052 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 01:00 PM
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Very fair points but I started with a single E-sub, it felt more raw sound wise compared to F112.


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post #7053 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 01:14 PM
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But, again, what you say is meaningless unless you've auditioned both in the same position and the same room. Is that what you're saying you did?

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post #7054 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 01:18 PM
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So I am thinking of picking up a second F112. I have the V1. Called JL and they said I could purchase one V2 and just run it as master and V1 as slave. This will then use the better ARO system in the V2 for the V1 as well. However I would then only utilize one subwoofer out on my Audy XT32 equipped receiver.

Also just thinking about buying a used V1 and saving a lot of money this way. I have a feeling the XT32 in my Marantz is probably already better then what ARO can do even in the V2...
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post #7055 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post
But, again, what you say is meaningless unless you've auditioned both in the same position and the same room. Is that what you're saying you did?

IMHO
Yes I have heard the same subs in same room, I found a difference between both...!



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post #7056 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 03:03 PM
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Based on your original post, it seemed a dubious claim, IMHO (potential for choice-supported bias is also very real here).
If indeed what you say is true, then I suspect ARO was active on the F112 (the E-series has no room correction), which could certainly give the false impression of reduced power.
And I doubt you'll find anyone would agree with the assertion that the additional 2 Hz of extension, "is not much at all".
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post #7057 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 03:08 PM
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So if someone has a point of view that you don't agree with then it's dubious..!
That's your opinion I've owned JL products and heard most of them apart from the Gotham..!
So think what you want don't really care...I just use my ears not numbers.
Like I said previously I found the Fathom more refined and the Esub more raw...sound wise.
And I felt it digged deeper no matter the stated figures say...!


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post #7058 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 03:11 PM
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That's nice.
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post #7059 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 03:16 PM
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I'm just stating what I heard nothing more nothing less..!
I have no bias either way..!

Anyway think we will agree to disagree...


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post #7060 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 03:18 PM
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No, not really. Let us know when you've done a proper, controlled listening test.
Or explain exactly how you controlled the test you've already done.
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post #7061 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 03:23 PM
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No need to explain anything.!
You obviously know it all..so leave you to it...enjoy


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post #7062 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
So I am thinking of picking up a second F112. I have the V1. Called JL and they said I could purchase one V2 and just run it as master and V1 as slave. This will then use the better ARO system in the V2 for the V1 as well. However I would then only utilize one subwoofer out on my Audy XT32 equipped receiver.

Also just thinking about buying a used V1 and saving a lot of money this way. I have a feeling the XT32 in my Marantz is probably already better then what ARO can do even in the V2...
I vote for the V1/XT32 option. With all that coin you'll save beers are on you.
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post #7063 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil1975m View Post
No need to explain anything...

Thanks, that's what I expected.
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post #7064 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 03:35 PM
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And just response I expected


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post #7065 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
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I had dual E-112 and I've listened to a F112
You've already proven my point. LOL.
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post #7066 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 11:12 PM
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JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub

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Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post
You've already proven my point. LOL.
Again we will agree to disagree your point being that only your view that is valid

P.s rather trolling my posts please add your experience with the Fathom and Esub range?
Because that's what the original poster asked how do they compare.!


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post #7067 of 7078 Old 11-09-2015, 11:48 PM
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I vote for the V1/XT32 option. With all that coin you'll save beers are on you.

I agree with Waboman go for the V1 as XT32 does a great job with the fathoms


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post #7068 of 7078 Old 11-10-2015, 11:19 AM
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I agree with Waboman


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post #7069 of 7078 Old 11-11-2015, 05:21 AM
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If I could only get my wife to say that.
Thats every mans mission is for there wife to agree with them.
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post #7070 of 7078 Old 11-11-2015, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waboman View Post
I vote for the V1/XT32 option. With all that coin you'll save beers are on you.
JL has run out of remaining inventory for the v1. Used market would be your best option if you plan to master slave V2+V1.
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post #7071 of 7078 Old Yesterday, 08:46 AM
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I can't believe all the ID and DIY trash talk on these things; finally scraped together enough coin to buy a pair of demo F212's. Everyone seems obsessed with SPL and freq range, but are they looking at the wrong thing because these F212's are leaders in none of those and are the best subs I've heard hands down. More detail for drums, more slam without any boom, audibly more detail for string bass too! As a disclaimer my room is very well treated with absorption panels and lots of bass traps.

I thought my setup sounded world class before with my SVS PB13 ultras, but I immediately heard better bass detail even though both subs are less than 1% THD in my room. The question is why?

Is it the sealed enclosure making these things a little more dynamic than the ported PB13 ultras?

Is it the co-located drivers that work better with my room?

Is it the big f@#$ amp in these things that is well designed and can better handle back EMF from the drivers?

Is it all of the above?
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post #7072 of 7078 Old Yesterday, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post
I can't believe all the ID and DIY trash talk on these things; finally scraped together enough coin to buy a pair of demo F212's. Everyone seems obsessed with SPL and freq range, but are they looking at the wrong thing because these F212's are leaders in none of those and are the best subs I've heard hands down. More detail for drums, more slam without any boom, audibly more detail for string bass too! As a disclaimer my room is very well treated with absorption panels and lots of bass traps.

I thought my setup sounded world class before with my SVS PB13 ultras, but I immediately heard better bass detail even though both subs are less than 1% THD in my room. The question is why?

Is it the sealed enclosure making these things a little more dynamic than the ported PB13 ultras?

Is it the co-located drivers that work better with my room?

Is it the big f@#$ amp in these things that is well designed and can better handle back EMF from the drivers?

Is it all of the above?
My thoughts would be:

1) Is the in room frequency response the same? I believe this is a large majority of what we hear in room. If the in room response differs between the two sets of subs, then they should sound different.

2) Were both sets of subs set up and integrated equally well with the main speakers? This will also, as I am sure you know, have a large impact on how they sound.

3) Sometimes, and this is not optional or controllable not matter how impartial we attempt to be, our bias affects what we hear. I would assume that you had hoped and possibly expected the JL subs to sound better with music. Otherwise, why make the change, right? In other words, if someone were to precisely level match the two sets of subs, eq them for the exact same in room frequency response and integrate them precisely the same with your main speakers, would you be able to tell which subs were playing in a blind test? Most peoples response will always be "of course, I clearly hear a difference". And they do. But blind testing more often than not does not have the same result.

4) They really do sound better. Why? Who knows.

My personal opinion is that blind testing usually results in a different outcome.
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post #7073 of 7078 Old Yesterday, 02:48 PM
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1) You are close, but a little off. It's usually the ringing you see on the waterfall plot that even a casual listener can easily hear (e.g. they'll complain about muddy, bloated or fat bass). I'm attaching some plots of the SVS PB13 Ultras for you to compare to my other post since you are interested though. I don't know, you tell me if you think I can hear a difference? (because I can easily hear it)

The FR plot looks better in that it goes to 16Hz, BUT look at the ringing at 30Hz and below on the waterfall plot. What do you really think is more audible a few dB difference in freq response, going lower by a few Hz, or all that extra ringing? FR should really be the last curve you look at if you care about audio fidelity, it's important, but the other curves are many times more useful in room acoustics and having great audio fidelity. Not my opinion, but technical fact if you study acoustics. To be clear the correct technical answer is ringing just in case someone reads this and is wondering.

2) I don't know what do you think, the freq resp plots are there now. I'm not even sure why you are replying to my post, have you owned both pairs of subs?

3) The double blind testing stuff isn't feasible so why bring it up? Sure it matters on a track I haven't heard, but on tracks I've heard hundreds of times of course I can notice that low frequencies are ringing as further evidenced by the waterfall plots. We aren't talking about comparing DSPs or cables or some other thing where you can't hear a difference. I wouldn't even worry about double blind testing for subs. Fact is there is NO way to do it reliably since moving a sub 6" can affect things too much. The room has too much of an impact so it is not feasible so why even bring it up other than to say some smart comment like number 4)?!?

Please post your REW file, because I think it matters far more than DBT and I'd like to see how your room/setup performs with those 18" subs.

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My thoughts would be:

1) Is the in room frequency response the same? I believe this is a large majority of what we hear in room. If the in room response differs between the two sets of subs, then they should sound different.

2) Were both sets of subs set up and integrated equally well with the main speakers? This will also, as I am sure you know, have a large impact on how they sound.

3) Sometimes, and this is not optional or controllable not matter how impartial we attempt to be, our bias affects what we hear. I would assume that you had hoped and possibly expected the JL subs to sound better with music. Otherwise, why make the change, right? In other words, if someone were to precisely level match the two sets of subs, eq them for the exact same in room frequency response and integrate them precisely the same with your main speakers, would you be able to tell which subs were playing in a blind test? Most peoples response will always be "of course, I clearly hear a difference". And they do. But blind testing more often than not does not have the same result.

4) They really do sound better. Why? Who knows.

My personal opinion is that blind testing usually results in a different outcome.
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post #7074 of 7078 Old Yesterday, 04:48 PM
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Cant see your new plots on my phone but I'll check them out when I can. First of all though, I want you to no there was no sarcasm intended in anything I posted. Second, and I should have mentioned this in my first post, is that your response and waterfall look amazing. Congratulations....I can guarantee my room does not look nearly that good. I'll definitely work on getting some plots together to share.

You make a very good point about ringing, and I am curious to see how the Ultras compare to your Fathoms.

Point 4 I meant exactly what I said....maybe it really does sound better but perhaps is something not shown on a graph. A big difference in ringing makes sense though.

Once again congrats on some very impressive graphs. I'm sure they must translate to great sound.


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post #7075 of 7078 Old Yesterday, 10:30 PM
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I would recommend REW and a miniDSP USB mic and lots of your time to get your plots looking at mine. Follow the REW thread here that discusses acoustics.


You may spend $1-2k on raw materials (I love Owens Corning 703 4" panels and have been gluing two back to back for 8" panels), but in the end you will be well rewarded for your 100-200 hours spent studying and building.


That was my experience when I started studying acoustics a few years ago. I learned a lot and my system is hands down the best I've ever heard at any price. It seems very few people are obsessed with measurements (I'm an engineer and love measurements and objectivity).


These blind listening tests you see audiophile clubs do are nonsense from a scientific stand point when an $80 mic and free software can show you so much more and you can easily and objectively level match plots and compare them properly.


I've never had the measurements come out better and my system sound worse, but I have my system setup for that "live" sound. No kidding drums, horns, voices are almost indiscernible from the real thing, but I have 17 4 foot by 2 foot 4" and thicker panels and 8 bass traps in my small room and only calibrate for one seat.


I can promise you if you want fidelity, you will be missing something until you get rid of ringing and have decent looking impulse/ETC plots.


I am a fan of co-located subs after hearing what these F212's do for me and believe this is what fixed my ringing at 20Hz. Makes me want to stack another pair, but I'm broke now!


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Once again congrats on some very impressive graphs. I'm sure they must translate to great sound.

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post #7076 of 7078 Old Yesterday, 10:37 PM
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I have a umik-1 mic and use it to set up my subs to the best of my ability with REW. I started with dual ported subs and had them +/- 2 dB or so from 16-100 Hz. I then switched to the sealed 18's I currently have. My amp had a warranty issue and I did not break REW back out when I got the amp back. So the subs are only set up by ear currently. My response is reasonably decent without eq though. When I get time in the near future, I'll make it a point to dial them back in with REW and share results if you are interested. I have strong DSP in my amp so no issues there.


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post #7077 of 7078 Old Today, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post

These blind listening tests you see audiophile clubs do are nonsense from a scientific stand point when an $80 mic and free software can show you so much more and you can easily and objectively level match plots and compare them properly.
I definitely believe measurements tell the story. I also believe blind tests dispel a lot of myths. People can tell which amp they are listening to until they can't see which one it is. Or whether they are listening to a sealed or ported sub. In every case I have read, listeners with extremely strong biases of say for example, the superior sound quality of a high end expensive amplifier, or a rock solid life long belief that sealed subs are inherently superior for music, the result is always different in blind tests. When they can no longer tell that they are listening to their preferred alignment, or their favored expensive amp, they are somehow unable to distinguish it from the ported or horn alignment, or the $300 bargain amp.


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I can promise you if you want fidelity, you will be missing something until you get rid of ringing and have decent looking impulse/ETC plots.
I agree with this as part of the equation. However, I also believing that eliminating 15 dB nulls and peaks in a horrible frequency response will have a larger impact on sound quality than some ringing below 30 Hz. Or anywhere for that matter. But after getting a smooth FR, I would think this is pretty important.

Question for you: Do you feel like the ringing present with your PB13's below 30 Hz made that much of an impact on music? Do you think there is any chance that if you were to switch back and forth between the PB's and the Fathom's without knowing which ones were playing, that you would be able to tell the difference? You seem convinced you could clearly tell the difference, and I agree you could be right. But is there a chance your bias is what is making you hear a difference? Therefore you actually do truly and honestly hear the difference? No one thinks so until it happens. Interesting topic IMO.
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post #7078 of 7078 Old Today, 10:24 AM
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No, I can for sure hear the difference. Keep in mind I have spent 100's of hours listening to the same tracks in that room. I know the acoustics very well in there and the difference is obvious to me. From my experience in acoustics, whenever I tame ringing down like that on the waterfall plot, I have always heard and loved the difference.

Basically, if you fix your waterfall plot with lots of thick absorption panels and bass traps, the nulls and peaks on the freq resp plot will take care of themselves by the time you run Dirac or whatever correction you have in your processor.

I would say every null can be corrected with absorption from my experience, but I've used Audyssey Pro and Dirac and both leave nulls that were fixable by adding really thick layers of Corning 703.

Co-locating drivers is the way to go from an ease of install and from this recent change it seems. It would be too hard to ever install 4 subs by ear (you really need a MiniDSP and lots of study to ensure phase is individually setup correctly for all four before applying any EQ to the group of subs), but if you do two symmetrical stacks (symmetrical wrt to the MLP) and use splitters, it is very easy to "auto" EQ. I would agree co-locating another pair of ultras may have got me there, but for the price I got on the F212's and due to limited space, this was impractical. I have no problem spending the extra $1k versus 4 ultras if it means I can still see my screen

Keep in mind you are asking if someone can notice ringing that lasts about a second 30 Hz and below (when looking for a decay below 40dB from peak). I know you don't have the REW files to expand the millisecond axis, but I will try to post them. You can definitely hear ringing like that my experience.

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Question for you: Do you feel like the ringing present with your PB13's below 30 Hz made that much of an impact on music? Do you think there is any chance that if you were to switch back and forth between the PB's and the Fathom's without knowing which ones were playing, that you would be able to tell the difference? You seem convinced you could clearly tell the difference, and I agree you could be right. But is there a chance your bias is what is making you hear a difference? Therefore you actually do truly and honestly hear the difference? No one thinks so until it happens. Interesting topic IMO.
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