JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub - Page 238 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 07-11-2016, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raoul View Post
I need to add a sub to my system and I know it's gonna be a JL Audio subwoofer...
Looks like you deleted your last post, but you mentioned considering used F113s. I'd say go for it if you find a fair price (easier said than done), particularly in light of what I recently learned...

One of my F112s is a somewhat beat up unit I purchased off of eBay almost 3 years ago (judging by the damaged box, it appeared to be from a salvage house that buys damaged goods from UPS/FedEx). After having been left on for well over a year, I powered it off before leaving for a week long vacation. When I returned, it refused to power back up, so I contacted Barry Ober from JL tech support.

JL Audio now offers (at least to those of us in the CONUS) an OOW (out-of-warranty) service program. You pay to ship the unit back to them (must be shipped in the original box with plastic skids - you can buy one from JL if necessary). Then, for a flat fee of $250, they will repair it (doesn't matter what's wrong) and ship it back to you, complete with a 2 year warranty. They even gave me a new grille (original was cracked), calibration mic (missing from the one I purchased) and power cord (also missing). In 3 weeks time, I was back in business. Not a bad deal, IMO.

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Old 07-11-2016, 12:59 PM
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Ah yes. I deleted it because I'd written essentially the same question last week but forgot. The thread was long and in my moment of fatigue I forgot that I'd already asked the question.

Thank you for responding. I'm really glad that JLAudio offer this program for refurbishing a used sub. It's really excellent in terms of customer service. I respect companies that stand by their products for years.

I'm still deeply confused about the ARC vs JLA calibration software interaction. I suspect the only way to find out is to play with them both.

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Old 07-11-2016, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by raoul View Post
...I'm still deeply confused about the ARC vs JLA calibration software interaction. I suspect the only way to find out is to play with them both.
I don't see any reason you couldn't use both (you would simply have to run the JLA calibration first), however purists would likely want to avoid multiple A/D processing conversions. But, two levels of processing might ultimately be more effective in smoothing out response in a difficult room. IMO, and I think most would agree, starting off with a pair of subs can solve a lot of problems that any room correction system might otherwise struggle to correct. My room really has no need for the shear power offered by dual F112s, but after adding the second sub, the difference was night-and-day (in both cases I was using AntiMode digital sub correction).
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Old 08-24-2016, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post
I don't see any reason you couldn't use both (you would simply have to run the JLA calibration first), however purists would likely want to avoid multiple A/D processing conversions. But, two levels of processing might ultimately be more effective in smoothing out response in a difficult room. IMO, and I think most would agree, starting off with a pair of subs can solve a lot of problems that any room correction system might otherwise struggle to correct. My room really has no need for the shear power offered by dual F112s, but after adding the second sub, the difference was night-and-day (in both cases I was using AntiMode digital sub correction).
Correct...and it also lets you experiment with placement to achieve best overall response...
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Old 08-25-2016, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Correct...and it also lets you experiment with placement to achieve best overall response...
That is so true when setting up two F113's, or any dual JL subs. I took my time and tried them stacked together, opposite corners in the room, and finally back and forth off of the front walls until I achieved the "optimum position" for my room. I did all of this before trying the sub's auto adjustment. The fun part was running it again after I treated the room with Vicoustics panels and bass traps. That made a huge change in the response curve.
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Old 09-24-2016, 03:06 AM
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Somebody explain the volume settings between Ref and variable. I ran audessy on my receiver and JL DARO and confused about the difference in the settings
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Old 09-26-2016, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dean122601 View Post
Somebody explain the volume settings between Ref and variable. I ran audessy on my receiver and JL DARO and confused about the difference in the settings
If the new Fathom manual is anything like the old one, I'd expect this topic was thoroughly (and clearly) covered. If you must use both room corrections (which I'm guessing you do if you intend to use Audyssey), then you'll need to run DARO first. Afterwards, in your case, you will likely want to leave the sub in reference mode to prevent accidental changes in the sub volume. Audyssey should take care of the level matching, so there is no need to use the sub in variable mode.

Tip: if you want responses, don't forget to use the word "please" in your post. Just common courtesy.
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by dean122601 View Post
Somebody explain the volume settings between Ref and variable. I ran audessy on my receiver and JL DARO and confused about the difference in the settings
If you sub is on same wall as your center and front left and right, then the following is tips I got from a JL Audio specialist and distributor;

Level Mode - Variable (Allows the usage of the variable volume control of subwoofer so that you can level match for auddessey).
LP Filter - Off (Turns off the low pass filter, as your av receiver has this built in for AV use - crossover controls within receiver)
LP freq (Hz) - all the way off
e.l.f. Trim (dB) – 0

Phase (deg) – 0
Polarity – 180 deg
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Old 12-09-2016, 02:15 PM
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I wanted to get opinions on using a few of these subs for a large room. I know the f113 is a good sub and I was happy with the one I had in the living room. But in a large dedicated HT is the f113 the right speaker for the job? I sit 19' back from screen.

I was having a discussion with another forum member about distortion. Measurements on the Secret's review showed distortion of 12.3% @ 1ft, 20hz, 100dB. 12% sounds like a pretty big number and that's nowhere near reference or real seating distances.

I tend to listen about 10dB below reference. But am heading for disappointment trying to hit 105dB peaks from 19' away, even using a few of them?

Also, is there anyway to permanently defeat the EQ? Can I pull the face plate off and cold solder a wire between 2 points?

If all I really need is a sub + amp with no RC built into the sub, does that make the f113 much less compelling? I feel like I'm paying for a feature I don't need, but if that feature isn't really adding much to the price than it doesn't matter.

A big reason I bought my original f113 was WAF. No big boxes in the living room. The f113 was small enough that it got a pass. But in the HT, I have lots of space behind the baffle wall and lots of space under the riser. I could hide a few 2' x 2' x 11' boxes and no one would see them. So I also wonder if I am paying extra for a small sub, or trading off performance for a smaller footprint that I really don't need.

 

 

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Old 12-09-2016, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
I wanted to get opinions on using a few of these subs for a large room. I know the f113 is a good sub and I was happy with the one I had in the living room. But in a large dedicated HT is the f113 the right speaker for the job? I sit 19' back from screen.

I was having a discussion with another forum member about distortion. Measurements on the Secret's review showed distortion of 12.3% @ 1ft, 20hz, 100dB. 12% sounds like a pretty big number and that's nowhere near reference or real seating distances.
That's not awful for those frequencies.

Quote:
I tend to listen about 10dB below reference. But am heading for disappointment trying to hit 105dB peaks from 19' away, even using a few of them?
The subs do not need to be 19' away. When you use more than one, they should be distributed.

Quote:
Also, is there anyway to permanently defeat the EQ? Can I pull the face plate off and cold solder a wire between 2 points?
Why? Just turn it off.

Quote:
If all I really need is a sub + amp with no RC built into the sub, does that make the f113 much less compelling? I feel like I'm paying for a feature I don't need, but if that feature isn't really adding much to the price than it doesn't matter.
What are you using for EQ? I am an f113 fan (I have two in a 15'x26' room open to other spaces.). But there are other brands with potent subs that do not include EQ.

Quote:
A big reason I bought my original f113 was WAF. No big boxes in the living room. The f113 was small enough that it got a pass. But in the HT, I have lots of space behind the baffle wall and lots of space under the riser. I could hide a few 2' x 2' x 11' boxes and no one would see them. So I also wonder if I am paying extra for a small sub, or trading off performance for a smaller footprint that I really don't need.
Multiple subs offer advantages well beyond more output. Google Harman multiple subs, Geddes and Swarm.

Kal Rubinson

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Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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Old 12-09-2016, 06:52 PM
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Hey Kal. It's been a while since I've talked to you on AVS. I'm still enjoying my 802D's that I ended up buying after reading about them in your blog.

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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
That's not awful for those frequencies.
That's what I've read. It's surprising (and enlightening) considering the hand wringing that goes into fractions of a % differences in amps & DACs. If 12% mechanically induced distortion isn't bad at 20hz, who cares if a sub amp has 0.01% or 0.08% THD.

At 10' away in the living room the sub sounds great to me. I'm just concerned I am going to cross some threshold in a larger room where it becomes noticeable. In talking to JBL, they felt distortion was going to be a key difference in my room for the JLs vs the 4 18" JBL subs they recommended.

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The subs do not need to be 19' away. When you use more than one, they should be distributed.
The reason for being 19' away (actually ~22' diagonal) is because the subs are going in the corners. The reason for the corners is I think that's what Harman recommends as a good 1st choice, if you're going in blind. By blind I mean not doing FLO, BassCAMP, or some other type of modeling to determine best locations for subs in a particular room.

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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
Why? Just turn it off.
As far as I know, JL made it a soft button that resets to 'on' after power loss. The subs will sit behind stretched fabric making them inconvenient to access. It's not that big of a deal, but I would rather not have to pull fabric and press the button every time we lose power.

I'm also not sure if I will be able to see if the red 'defeat' light is on or off. I could see that driving me mad. "Was there no bass in that EMP blast because that's what the director intended... or did we lose power last night, the JL RC is enabled, and it's messing with my bass?" It would be best if I could disable it during install - set & forget.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
What are you using for EQ? I am an f113 fan (I have two in a 15'x26' room open to other spaces.). But there are other brands with potent subs that do not include EQ.
I'm using Arcos with SFM for the subs. I have an SDEC-4500P. It has 4 subwoofer outputs and manipulates the phase of each sub independently to reduce seat to seat variations, then applies global EQ to the subs. It also handles the active crossovers for the mains, speaker correction, bass management, and PEQ.

JBL subs would be an obvious choice, but the price / performance ratio doesn't seem very good. The subs themselves aren't bad, but they want you to use the same amps as the mains which are roughly $2 per watt. The f113 starts looking like a bargain, especially with what the v1's are going for on the used market.

 

 

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Old 12-09-2016, 08:36 PM
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Why not try a second F113? I have two in my 20'X15' room and am easily satisfied. I have them on the front wall near the corners which I think would make you content by adding the other sub.

Last edited by Sharp1080; 12-10-2016 at 09:02 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 12-10-2016, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
As far as I know, JL made it a soft button that resets to 'on' after power loss. The subs will sit behind stretched fabric making them inconvenient to access. It's not that big of a deal, but I would rather not have to pull fabric and press the button every time we lose power.

I'm also not sure if I will be able to see if the red 'defeat' light is on or off. I could see that driving me mad. "Was there no bass in that EMP blast because that's what the director intended... or did we lose power last night, the JL RC is enabled, and it's messing with my bass?" It would be best if I could disable it during install - set & forget.
That surprises me as I do not recall it being a "soft" button but, then again, we almost never lose power in NYC.

Quote:
I'm using Arcos with SFM for the subs. I have an SDEC-4500P. It has 4 subwoofer outputs and manipulates the phase of each sub independently to reduce seat to seat variations, then applies global EQ to the subs. It also handles the active crossovers for the mains, speaker correction, bass management, and PEQ.

JBL subs would be an obvious choice, but the price / performance ratio doesn't seem very good. The subs themselves aren't bad, but they want you to use the same amps as the mains which are roughly $2 per watt. The f113 starts looking like a bargain, especially with what the v1's are going for on the used market.
I do not know why additional f113s, distributed around the room, would not resolve your issues.

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Old 01-15-2017, 08:34 AM
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Comparing JL F113 vs svs for room size 20 x 20.. using for both home theater and music. Current set up B&w 804d3 with Marantz 8802a and McIntosh mc-205. Thoughts on which svs to even consider? Or F112 x 2. Please help.
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Old 01-27-2017, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bg55 View Post
Comparing JL F113 vs svs for room size 20 x 20.. using for both home theater and music. Current set up B&w 804d3 with Marantz 8802a and McIntosh mc-205. Thoughts on which svs to even consider? Or F112 x 2. Please help.
I'm always a proponent of using multiple subs. What is your budget for this addition to your set up?

7.2.4 Home Theater - Sony 75x850c, Samsung K8500, Oppo 203, Marantz AV7702mkII, Marantz 7055, Marantz 6004
2 - JL Audio F212, Klipsch RF-82, RC-62, RS-62, 5800 in-ceiling, Furman Elite, DIRECTV - HR54-700, C61k-700, ATS Acoustic Panels
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Old 01-27-2017, 10:27 PM
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Well I'm open to suggestions. Actually like the idea of 2 JL f110's
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Old 01-28-2017, 07:55 PM
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Well I'm open to suggestions. Actually like the idea of 2 JL f110's
I used to run a pair of F110s in my set up. Really enjoyed them, but if your budget can handle it I would suggest a pair of F112s.

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2 - JL Audio F212, Klipsch RF-82, RC-62, RS-62, 5800 in-ceiling, Furman Elite, DIRECTV - HR54-700, C61k-700, ATS Acoustic Panels
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Old 01-30-2017, 08:50 AM
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Nothing below a pair of F112's. I stretched my budget for a pair of F113's. I am still happy with them.
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Old 01-30-2017, 06:33 PM
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I have hearded the JL Audios and they are great. I wanted to get 4 Fathom 113's but after reading and comparing all of the information I could find on the internet I have recently settled on Funk Audio subs over them.

For instance Funk Audio 18.0 has the following advantages:

1. Overall more output - about 2-3db over JL Audio and with the new motor probably up to 6-7db more under 30hz than JL Audio. So 2 Funks should play like 4 JL Audio's in terms of output.
2. Funk plays much better above 100hz with a very nice low THD and flat response where as JL Audio decays and distortion rises after 80hz. This means I can cross higher and easier getting the best dynamics and SQ out of a system (Most people seem to agree that with a great sub going with higher crossover as high as 100 or 120 leads to the better sounding overall system, especially at refernece levels).
3. Funk plays much lower since there's no high pass filter so I can hopefully hit the single digits with meaningful response in my sealed room.
4. Funk has slightly better group delay, especially in lower frequencies
5. Funk seems to have a much better impulse response, the one that settles after about 5ms, where as JL Audio seems to still have "left over" vibrations for another 50ms.
6. Funk has a much much lower distortion level at all frequencies (especially below 30 and above 80) at much, much higher volume levels.
7. 18.0 still cost much less than JL Audio Fathoms 113v2.


I have had an amazingly positive experience emailing directly with Nathan so I recommend this highly as an alternative if you ever need one.

I also strongly concurr on using multiple subs. I have read a lot of research on this and the latest word from almost everyone is to useat least 2 subs, 4 if you can get away with it.
Her'es the latest research from Harman on this here:
https://www.harman.com/sites/default...s/multsubs.pdf
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Old 01-30-2017, 08:45 PM
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I really like the Funk Audio subs. It was awhile ago but I had serious thoughts of selling the two JL Audio F113 subwoofers and buying either two Funk 18.0 or two Seaton Submersives!
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Old 01-30-2017, 10:11 PM
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I too was just about to suggest Funk for this guy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
...
I was having a discussion with another forum member about distortion. Measurements on the Secret's review showed distortion of 12.3% @ 1ft, 20hz, 100dB. 12% sounds like a pretty big number and that's nowhere near reference or real seating distances.
...
A big reason I bought my original f113 was WAF. No big boxes in the living room. The f113 was small enough that it got a pass. But in the HT, I have lots of space behind the baffle wall and lots of space under the riser. I could hide a few 2' x 2' x 11' boxes and no one would see them. So I also wonder if I am paying extra for a small sub, or trading off performance for a smaller footprint that I really don't need.
I was originally considering E112s, but ended up with Funk 18.0c's they are similar size to f113s (a little wider but also more shallow), but they can play about the same peak volume as f113 but with more extension down to 10hz and up to like 400hz or something, plus you can more or less get 2 of them for the price of an F113. Added benefit, since you mentioned WAF, they do furniture quality veneers in all sorts of woods and colors, for example I had mine done in walnut to match my media console. They are also more manageable as they weight about half what the F113 does. There is no autocal, but they also include a 64bit/96k dsp which the owner Nathan will custom program for you if you provide measurements (I set to flat and was content). Also they have network and usb ports and can be controlled via PC.

If you weren't trying to save money and/or weren't worried about size, then you could move up to the 18.0 or 18.0se (same as 18.0 in a less expensive less curvy square box) which would add another 3db each, plus are available and in master-slave. if you wanted to spend a bit more, you could move up to the 21.0, which is basically the same sized box as the 18.0 but with the bigger driver and ANOTHER 3db.

Also if you do consider funk and are getting more than one sub, be sure to hit up Nathan directly. He will usually be able to hook you up with a better deal, plus then he can match the veneers if you care about such things.
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Old 01-31-2017, 06:26 PM
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I think I'm going to try the JL's and see how they do. The main reason I wanted to get it right upfront was because the Arcos calibration is a few thousand and if I get new subs I would have to re-calibrate. JBL also recommended 4 subs, 1 in each corner and that would take some modifications to the riser & baffle wall, which would be more expensive to retrofit later. Right now the room is bare drywall, no internal wiring or construction.

I've talked to a few people outside of AVS that seem to think I will be fine. Maybe it's just that the AVS crowd tends to seriously overkill things when it comes to subs that has me thinking I'm going to come up short. I'm not looking to stress my trusses or damage my internal organs. I just want a good kick in the chest when the movie calls for it and decent seat-to-seat variation for when I have company.

 

 

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Old 02-01-2017, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
I think I'm going to try the JL's and see how they do. The main reason I wanted to get it right upfront was because the Arcos calibration is a few thousand and if I get new subs I would have to re-calibrate. JBL also recommended 4 subs, 1 in each corner and that would take some modifications to the riser & baffle wall, which would be more expensive to retrofit later. Right now the room is bare drywall, no internal wiring or construction.

I've talked to a few people outside of AVS that seem to think I will be fine. Maybe it's just that the AVS crowd tends to seriously overkill things when it comes to subs that has me thinking I'm going to come up short. I'm not looking to stress my trusses or damage my internal organs. I just want a good kick in the chest when the movie calls for it and decent seat-to-seat variation for when I have company.
Then the JL Audio F112 or F113 should work fine for you.
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Old 02-01-2017, 05:45 PM
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You can hardly overdo good base in the theater. Even at 80hz crossed the subs will play LFE and the total base output of ALL of the systems channels so having great headroom there and effortless SQ will greatly improve the system. Most people can't go back after hearing a system with real powerful, uncompressed base. It is the absolute foundation of a great theater experience, and music too in my opinion. Lots of people think that subs only add more "oomph" to the sound but in fact they tend to increase the sound stage and dimensionaltiy of the system and good musical subs will actually increase the clarity by a lot (since the subs can play the upper base with much better resolution and dynamics than most mains, even huge floorstanding ones).

JL Audio subs are amazing in that regard but quite expensive for what they do. If calibartion is the deciding factor here I would recommend looking at Minidsp units that have Dirac. You can get used for a bargain and it'll make your entire system sound 4x more expensive, including fixing the base response. If you don't then doing a DSP filter to correct for your in room response will not be a problem with Nathans subs and the DSP electronics in those is top notch.
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Old Today, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith_JL View Post
You should not have to re-engage the "Defeat" button every time you turn the Fathom on.... only if you disconnect main power.
You guys are from Florida. You know "disconnecting from main power" is sometimes forced. What was the reason for making this a soft button? For what this sub costs, there should be a hard button that defeats ARO and doesn't lose the setting during a power failure.

JLA support explained how to sort of defeat it by doing a fake out to a flat (no correction curve). But I don't know what other processing or delays ARO causes. I would really like to permanently defeat it. Is there an unsupported way to short the soft button so it is always 'on' (defeated)? Or possible to power the electronic side with a wall wart that is plugged into a UPS?

I'm not sure if @MSmith is still with JLA, so question is for anyone. Subs are in a baffle wall behind the screen wall (behind fabric), so it's a PITA to get back there to re-press the defeat button every time there is a storm / power failure.

 

 

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