JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub - Page 239 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7141 of 7158 Old 03-27-2017, 01:18 PM
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^ Makes sense to me. I'd just add that the room EQ in the original (v1) Fathom was an analog design, not DSP. Of course there is another section of unknown processing that flattens response and keeps the Fathoms from blowing out their relatively small drivers.

I still don't quite get what draws people to the Fathom line for a sizeable HT installation; particularly one in which the subs are hidden (Fathoms are meant to be seen, IMO). There are so many cheaper options out there now that seem to offer similar (size for size) or far better performance (with no size constraint). We've been over this many times in recent pages of this thread, where several alternative manufacturers have been discussed.
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post #7142 of 7158 Old 03-27-2017, 01:54 PM
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Yeah, I probably should have just got the JBL subs. They had 4 x 18" spec'd for my room, sitting in corners to maximize room gain. They are passive subs - no amps or DSP in them. But my budget for gear is $100k max. The JL's were a way to save some money, since I already had one and there were some decent deals out there on the v1 f113 to match mine.

 

 

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post #7143 of 7158 Old 03-28-2017, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
Yeah, I probably should have just got the JBL subs. They had 4 x 18" spec'd for my room, sitting in corners to maximize room gain. They are passive subs - no amps or DSP in them. But my budget for gear is $100k max. The JL's were a way to save some money, since I already had one and there were some decent deals out there on the v1 f113 to match mine.
Sure, four F113's is a seriously good combination and you can't go wrong that way, but I am fairly certain that turning off room correction in the F113 does not mean DSP is off. Meaning if JL is working in your system, likely JTR (or Seaton) will work as well.

I own a JL subwoof so there is no bashing here, but just want to point out that for movies and a relatively huge budget of 100k, there are better alternatives that will TOTALLY change the movie experience for you, IMHO.

For example my experience of E112 and JTR 1400 is that subjectively, they sound very different from each other -- one is mid-bassy, the other is deep-bassy . Objectively, a comparison of simple, easy to read, compression curves of F113 vs JTR 1400 shows huge difference that is hard to catch up even with multiple F113's. Check the top curve (115 dB curve) at 20 Hz: around 14 dB drop for JL (that is not good for movies) vs the nearly straight to 20 hz curve of JTR (partly why this was one of the best Data-Bass has ever tested).

BTW, if you sell those four F113's, you'll have more than enough for *two* JTR's, either 1400 or 2400 (total cost $4000-5000). Then the difference would be truly dramatic IMHO.

JL F113 From Home Theater Shack http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...thom-f113.html





JTR 1400 From Data-Bass review



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post #7144 of 7158 Old 03-28-2017, 10:48 AM
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Just over 7000 ft^3. After I posted that, I asked a couple of Pros on the forum and they thought I would be ok with 3 x f113. I picked up a 4th for good measure.

I talked to Jeff about JTR and he said the DSP he uses in his amps can't be defeated. Since JBL's room correction works (in part) by adjusting delays fed to each sub, I didn't want to risk the possibility of extra processing introducing unexpected delays. That was one of the reasons I didn't use Seaton as well. That and the price wasn't as attractive if you have to run every sub as a separate master.

JL has an option to defeat their room correction, so it seems like their subs would work from that angle. I know Keith likes to use smaller subs like the JLs to blend with the LCRs, then hand off to larger subs as frequency approaches infrasonic levels. So that might be a future upgrade for me. For now, I'll see how the 4 x f113 do since I already bought them.

But thanks for the reply.
Hi rabident,

Just a quick clarification for your own' knowledge and those reading along. The JBL ARCOS correction doesn't care if there is DSP or any other signal manipulation between the SDEC and subwoofer. All that matters is that you don't change the settings on the sub after it's run and the system is optimized. The "DSP" used in JTR, Seaton Sound, and countless other subwoofers is primarily for performance optimization, not room correction. Those that do offer attempts at on-board room correction like JL, Paradigm, and others can all be left unused, but this does not bypass their internal DSP, just this function.

Since the SDEC can adjust delays on each subwoofer, there is no concern with any latency of DSP managed amplifiers, as it's already baked in the measurements they take. This is even less of an issue when all subwoofers are the same, so any latency is the same. On a related note, when driving 4 corners of the room, unless the room is significantly asymmetrical at bass frequencies due to construction differences, you almost never WANT to send different signals to the front corners, just front vs rear subs, only requiring 2 signals.

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post #7145 of 7158 Old 03-28-2017, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Jensen View Post
I've owned an F113 since 2009 and I've been thoroughly satisfied. It however recently developed a 60 Hz hum, present even when the sub is powered up and not connected to anything but AC power. I called JL service and learned that they have a fixed price repair program for the F113 for $250. For this they go through the AMP and Driver and test everything to the original specs. Any components in the AMP that fail test points are replaced and if the driver fails it's test it is repaired or replaced. It leaves with a 1 year warranty too. You pay shipping to them and they pay shipping back. Mine is there and they said they have about a 3 day backlog right now.
This is fantastic shipping must be exorbitant as it must be freight!
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post #7146 of 7158 Old 03-28-2017, 11:00 AM
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post #7147 of 7158 Old 03-28-2017, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
This is fantastic shipping must be exorbitant as it must be freight!
Nope. FedEx ground will ship smaller packages up to 150 lbs, sufficient for even the F113. I paid $83 to ship my F112 (115 lbs) from NJ to FL, and JL covered the cost of return shipping.
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post #7148 of 7158 Old 03-29-2017, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Hi rabident,

Just a quick clarification for your own' knowledge and those reading along. The JBL ARCOS correction doesn't care if there is DSP or any other signal manipulation between the SDEC and subwoofer. All that matters is that you don't change the settings on the sub after it's run and the system is optimized. The "DSP" used in JTR, Seaton Sound, and countless other subwoofers is primarily for performance optimization, not room correction. Those that do offer attempts at on-board room correction like JL, Paradigm, and others can all be left unused, but this does not bypass their internal DSP, just this function.

Since the SDEC can adjust delays on each subwoofer, there is no concern with any latency of DSP managed amplifiers, as it's already baked in the measurements they take. This is even less of an issue when all subwoofers are the same, so any latency is the same. On a related note, when driving 4 corners of the room, unless the room is significantly asymmetrical at bass frequencies due to construction differences, you almost never WANT to send different signals to the front corners, just front vs rear subs, only requiring 2 signals.
I am going to give Harman the benefit of the doubt that they know how to optimize a room using multiple subs.

My concern was with DSP based EQ. There are different algorithms. Some of those algorithms can create phase shifts. All of them introduce some amount of delay.

Can SFM compensate for extra DSP induced delays? What if the delays vary with frequency? What if the delay throws off the distance measurements, and the SDEC thinks the subs are farther away than they really are? Does SFM depend on accurate physical distances?

It was largely the unknown. JBL of course recommends JBL subs and everything is guaranteed to work. But they said I could use JL and the only negative for my listening levels would be higher distortion, which Kal pointed out wasn't as bad as it seems. When I asked about Seaton they said who? I could have spent $7k on SDEC, $5k on calibration, $12k on Seaton subs... and hoped $24k worth of gear played nice together. Or get a package that came with some assurances. It was too much money to gamble.

FWIW, I tried you first. Initially for a Cat + Submersive room with Keith. I wanted to use cheaper gear to offset higher design costs. 2nd time was after you did Jeff's room, I e-mailed to see if you could sell me 4 Seaton subs, fly out, install, and calibrate my room. But both times you didn't respond and everyone said it was because you were busy.

JL vs JBL was purely a cost thing. JL vs everyone else had a lot to do with support. As far as performance, both Nyal and Adam thought I would be ok with 3 JLs and I got 4.

 

 

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post #7149 of 7158 Old 04-15-2017, 05:31 PM
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Do people pay list price for JL subs? I went into a local boutique shop near where I live in Fairfax Va and they wanted close to MRSP for a F112 and I could not even audition the sub because they did not have one out. What is the going rate for one now and possibly a second later? I found it hard to believe that forum members are paying $3700.00 for a F112. Hope I am not breaking any forum rules by asking this but I am trying to find some contacts because I have the sub upgrade bug. I currently have a Velodyne DD10 and looking for some more oomph . Thanks guys appreciate any help or leads.
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post #7150 of 7158 Old 08-15-2017, 08:58 PM
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I have the same question. With the price increase since I bought my demo version 1 F212's, I can just barely afford to buy another pair. I am sure not paying ~$3-5k more for essentially the same pair (don't need improved JL Audio room correction as I use Dirac on my PC).

If someone knows of a cheap/demo/used/b-stock F212 version one or two pair, please PM me. I am in South Carolina, but have a truck and don't mind driving to VA, GA, NC, FL etc...

I anxiously want to try 4 F212 subs as I know it will drastically improve the last remaining room null and my waterfall plot; there are simply frequencies my bass traps can't improve.

PS: please don't recommend other brands as I want to match what I have; plus I am limited on space and only care about distortion (and not hitting single digits with unwanted SPL).

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post #7151 of 7158 Old 08-15-2017, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post
I have the same question. With the price increase since I bought my demo version 1 F212's, I can just barely afford to buy another pair. I am sure not paying ~$3-5k more for essentially the same pair (don't need improved JL Audio room correction as I use Dirac on my PC).

If someone knows of a cheap/demo/used/b-stock F212 version one or two pair, please PM me. I am in South Carolina, but have a truck and don't mind driving to VA, GA, NC, FL etc...

I anxiously want to try 4 F212 subs as I know it will drastically improve the last remaining room null and my waterfall plot; there are simply frequencies my bass traps can't improve.

PS: please don't recommend other brands as I want to match what I have; plus I am limited on space and only care about distortion (and not hitting single digits with unwanted SPL).
Keep an eye on Audiogon.com They pop up once in a while. I got a great deal there on my F112.
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post #7152 of 7158 Old 08-19-2017, 08:00 PM
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Thanks. I just called 5-7 local dealers. No one close to me had a demo pair of F212's, but I did find two demo F113's and they seriously did the trick for far less money I built some stands for them too, so they are elevated off the floor.

Best bass I have ever heard, and music is out of this world incredible with this combo.

I'm sure someone will quote this and say I should have bought 2 JTR's or 2 Seaton subs or some bigger subs I can't fit multiples of in my 12x13 room, but they don't understand waterfall plots or room nulls. 4 subs alleviated all room nulls I had in the bass region just like I thought they would (where 2 subs wouldn't for my particular room, and of course I have bass traps).

I used an external DSP (Xilica XD4080) and time aligned and level matched them all. My waterfall plot will be perfect once I run Dirac. I am waiting to tri-amp my center before running Dirac. I have the best looking waterfall plot I have ever seen with no PEQ added; I am totally sold on running with 4 or more subs for the rest of my life.
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post #7153 of 7158 Old 08-20-2017, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post
Thanks. I just called 5-7 local dealers. No one close to me had a demo pair of F212's, but I did find two demo F113's and they seriously did the trick for far less money I built some stands for them too, so they are elevated off the floor.

Best bass I have ever heard, and music is out of this world incredible with this combo.

I'm sure someone will quote this and say I should have bought 2 JTR's or 2 Seaton subs or some bigger subs I can't fit multiples of in my 12x13 room, but they don't understand waterfall plots or room nulls. 4 subs alleviated all room nulls I had in the bass region just like I thought they would (where 2 subs wouldn't for my particular room, and of course I have bass traps).

I used an external DSP (Xilica XD4080) and time aligned and level matched them all. My waterfall plot will be perfect once I run Dirac. I am waiting to tri-amp my center before running Dirac. I have the best looking waterfall plot I have ever seen with no PEQ added; I am totally sold on running with 4 or more subs for the rest of my life.
Nice! Would love to see pics of the setup.
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post #7154 of 7158 Old 10-06-2017, 11:56 AM
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Anybody know how to reset ARO on the F-112? (So that there is no calibration stored) In the manual for the F-110, I see that you can press Demo + Defeat, and it will reset it. But I tried that and no dice, and I checked the F-112 manual and there's no mention of a way to reset it. I know I can just push the Defeat button, but am thinking to run the subs without ARO (and let Dirac do it all instead), but don't like the red LED.
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post #7155 of 7158 Old 10-06-2017, 12:21 PM
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If you're referring to the first-gen F112, AFAIK, it's not possible to reset ARO. Defeat is your only option, so you might have to get creative with some electrical tape.
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post #7156 of 7158 Old 10-06-2017, 02:27 PM
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That is correct. I had the same experience with my F112 v1. I just re-ran ARO and Dirac. I don't like to use the defeat option. Whenever the power goes out, the defeat button turns off and you have to push it again to enable it.
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post #7157 of 7158 Old 10-06-2017, 06:58 PM
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Ok, thought that may be the case, thanks for confirming! I guess I'll either learn to love the red light, or the ARO sound (in my REW measurements, the adjustments with it on are not that large really).
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post #7158 of 7158 Old 10-07-2017, 04:35 AM
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Yeah, good point about defeat being unreliable in a power failure. One of my F112s will occasionally re-enable ARO after a power cycle (not every time, oddly enough).
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