JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub - Page 239 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 82Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #7141 of 7149 Old 03-27-2017, 01:18 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
AvidHiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Jersey (Union County)
Posts: 1,187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 45
^ Makes sense to me. I'd just add that the room EQ in the original (v1) Fathom was an analog design, not DSP. Of course there is another section of unknown processing that flattens response and keeps the Fathoms from blowing out their relatively small drivers.

I still don't quite get what draws people to the Fathom line for a sizeable HT installation; particularly one in which the subs are hidden (Fathoms are meant to be seen, IMO). There are so many cheaper options out there now that seem to offer similar (size for size) or far better performance (with no size constraint). We've been over this many times in recent pages of this thread, where several alternative manufacturers have been discussed.
AvidHiker is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #7142 of 7149 Old 03-27-2017, 01:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rabident's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,408
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 383 Post(s)
Liked: 135
Yeah, I probably should have just got the JBL subs. They had 4 x 18" spec'd for my room, sitting in corners to maximize room gain. They are passive subs - no amps or DSP in them. But my budget for gear is $100k max. The JL's were a way to save some money, since I already had one and there were some decent deals out there on the v1 f113 to match mine.

 

 

rabident is offline  
post #7143 of 7149 Old 03-28-2017, 06:19 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes & LA LAkers Land
Posts: 2,713
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1452 Post(s)
Liked: 1325
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
Yeah, I probably should have just got the JBL subs. They had 4 x 18" spec'd for my room, sitting in corners to maximize room gain. They are passive subs - no amps or DSP in them. But my budget for gear is $100k max. The JL's were a way to save some money, since I already had one and there were some decent deals out there on the v1 f113 to match mine.
Sure, four F113's is a seriously good combination and you can't go wrong that way, but I am fairly certain that turning off room correction in the F113 does not mean DSP is off. Meaning if JL is working in your system, likely JTR (or Seaton) will work as well.

I own a JL subwoof so there is no bashing here, but just want to point out that for movies and a relatively huge budget of 100k, there are better alternatives that will TOTALLY change the movie experience for you, IMHO.

For example my experience of E112 and JTR 1400 is that subjectively, they sound very different from each other -- one is mid-bassy, the other is deep-bassy . Objectively, a comparison of simple, easy to read, compression curves of F113 vs JTR 1400 shows huge difference that is hard to catch up even with multiple F113's. Check the top curve (115 dB curve) at 20 Hz: around 14 dB drop for JL (that is not good for movies) vs the nearly straight to 20 hz curve of JTR (partly why this was one of the best Data-Bass has ever tested).

BTW, if you sell those four F113's, you'll have more than enough for *two* JTR's, either 1400 or 2400 (total cost $4000-5000). Then the difference would be truly dramatic IMHO.

JL F113 From Home Theater Shack http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...thom-f113.html





JTR 1400 From Data-Bass review



Last edited by cannga; 03-29-2017 at 10:05 PM.
cannga is offline  
 
post #7144 of 7149 Old 03-28-2017, 10:48 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mark Seaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 6,676
Mentioned: 95 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 642 Post(s)
Liked: 1727
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
Just over 7000 ft^3. After I posted that, I asked a couple of Pros on the forum and they thought I would be ok with 3 x f113. I picked up a 4th for good measure.

I talked to Jeff about JTR and he said the DSP he uses in his amps can't be defeated. Since JBL's room correction works (in part) by adjusting delays fed to each sub, I didn't want to risk the possibility of extra processing introducing unexpected delays. That was one of the reasons I didn't use Seaton as well. That and the price wasn't as attractive if you have to run every sub as a separate master.

JL has an option to defeat their room correction, so it seems like their subs would work from that angle. I know Keith likes to use smaller subs like the JLs to blend with the LCRs, then hand off to larger subs as frequency approaches infrasonic levels. So that might be a future upgrade for me. For now, I'll see how the 4 x f113 do since I already bought them.

But thanks for the reply.
Hi rabident,

Just a quick clarification for your own' knowledge and those reading along. The JBL ARCOS correction doesn't care if there is DSP or any other signal manipulation between the SDEC and subwoofer. All that matters is that you don't change the settings on the sub after it's run and the system is optimized. The "DSP" used in JTR, Seaton Sound, and countless other subwoofers is primarily for performance optimization, not room correction. Those that do offer attempts at on-board room correction like JL, Paradigm, and others can all be left unused, but this does not bypass their internal DSP, just this function.

Since the SDEC can adjust delays on each subwoofer, there is no concern with any latency of DSP managed amplifiers, as it's already baked in the measurements they take. This is even less of an issue when all subwoofers are the same, so any latency is the same. On a related note, when driving 4 corners of the room, unless the room is significantly asymmetrical at bass frequencies due to construction differences, you almost never WANT to send different signals to the front corners, just front vs rear subs, only requiring 2 signals.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
Mark Seaton is offline  
post #7145 of 7149 Old 03-28-2017, 10:53 AM
wse
AVS Forum Special Member
 
wse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 9,502
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2200 Post(s)
Liked: 805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Jensen View Post
I've owned an F113 since 2009 and I've been thoroughly satisfied. It however recently developed a 60 Hz hum, present even when the sub is powered up and not connected to anything but AC power. I called JL service and learned that they have a fixed price repair program for the F113 for $250. For this they go through the AMP and Driver and test everything to the original specs. Any components in the AMP that fail test points are replaced and if the driver fails it's test it is repaired or replaced. It leaves with a 1 year warranty too. You pay shipping to them and they pay shipping back. Mine is there and they said they have about a 3 day backlog right now.
This is fantastic shipping must be exorbitant as it must be freight!
wse is offline  
post #7146 of 7149 Old 03-28-2017, 11:00 AM
wse
AVS Forum Special Member
 
wse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 9,502
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2200 Post(s)
Liked: 805
wse is offline  
post #7147 of 7149 Old 03-28-2017, 11:38 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
AvidHiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Jersey (Union County)
Posts: 1,187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
This is fantastic shipping must be exorbitant as it must be freight!
Nope. FedEx ground will ship smaller packages up to 150 lbs, sufficient for even the F113. I paid $83 to ship my F112 (115 lbs) from NJ to FL, and JL covered the cost of return shipping.
AvidHiker is offline  
post #7148 of 7149 Old 03-29-2017, 06:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
rabident's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,408
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 383 Post(s)
Liked: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Hi rabident,

Just a quick clarification for your own' knowledge and those reading along. The JBL ARCOS correction doesn't care if there is DSP or any other signal manipulation between the SDEC and subwoofer. All that matters is that you don't change the settings on the sub after it's run and the system is optimized. The "DSP" used in JTR, Seaton Sound, and countless other subwoofers is primarily for performance optimization, not room correction. Those that do offer attempts at on-board room correction like JL, Paradigm, and others can all be left unused, but this does not bypass their internal DSP, just this function.

Since the SDEC can adjust delays on each subwoofer, there is no concern with any latency of DSP managed amplifiers, as it's already baked in the measurements they take. This is even less of an issue when all subwoofers are the same, so any latency is the same. On a related note, when driving 4 corners of the room, unless the room is significantly asymmetrical at bass frequencies due to construction differences, you almost never WANT to send different signals to the front corners, just front vs rear subs, only requiring 2 signals.
I am going to give Harman the benefit of the doubt that they know how to optimize a room using multiple subs.

My concern was with DSP based EQ. There are different algorithms. Some of those algorithms can create phase shifts. All of them introduce some amount of delay.

Can SFM compensate for extra DSP induced delays? What if the delays vary with frequency? What if the delay throws off the distance measurements, and the SDEC thinks the subs are farther away than they really are? Does SFM depend on accurate physical distances?

It was largely the unknown. JBL of course recommends JBL subs and everything is guaranteed to work. But they said I could use JL and the only negative for my listening levels would be higher distortion, which Kal pointed out wasn't as bad as it seems. When I asked about Seaton they said who? I could have spent $7k on SDEC, $5k on calibration, $12k on Seaton subs... and hoped $24k worth of gear played nice together. Or get a package that came with some assurances. It was too much money to gamble.

FWIW, I tried you first. Initially for a Cat + Submersive room with Keith. I wanted to use cheaper gear to offset higher design costs. 2nd time was after you did Jeff's room, I e-mailed to see if you could sell me 4 Seaton subs, fly out, install, and calibrate my room. But both times you didn't respond and everyone said it was because you were busy.

JL vs JBL was purely a cost thing. JL vs everyone else had a lot to do with support. As far as performance, both Nyal and Adam thought I would be ok with 3 JLs and I got 4.

 

 

rabident is offline  
post #7149 of 7149 Old 04-15-2017, 05:31 PM
Advanced Member
 
Dave-T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Arlington, Va.
Posts: 592
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 446 Post(s)
Liked: 209
Do people pay list price for JL subs? I went into a local boutique shop near where I live in Fairfax Va and they wanted close to MRSP for a F112 and I could not even audition the sub because they did not have one out. What is the going rate for one now and possibly a second later? I found it hard to believe that forum members are paying $3700.00 for a F112. Hope I am not breaking any forum rules by asking this but I am trying to find some contacts because I have the sub upgrade bug. I currently have a Velodyne DD10 and looking for some more oomph . Thanks guys appreciate any help or leads.
TheBucketOfTruth likes this.

Last edited by Dave-T; 04-15-2017 at 05:37 PM.
Dave-T is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off